Holy mass defined council of trent

[malphono]

The Latin Mass of Trent was celebrated in the native languages of the people in areas in Eastern Europe shortly after the Council of Trent by dispensation from Rome. That dispensation shows that the Council was not looking at celebrations of the Mass in the native languages only at the issue of those who said that the Mass can only be celebrated in such a way.

At the risk of repeating [post=6182923]myself[/post], the Glagolitic recension of the Roman Mass was in Church Slavonic, not in the vernacular.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

At the risk of repeating [post=6182923]myself[/post], the Glagolitic recension of the Roman Mass was in Church Slavonic, not in the vernacular.

Repeating myself, for the, what third, time.

The Mass was celebrated by dispensation in the vernacular.

From “What about the Latin Mass?” by Kevin Orlin Johnson, Ph.D., published by Pangaeus Press, in 2000.

I now quote.

“And it wasn’t always in Latin: there were papal indults permitting the celebration of the Tridentine Mass in Slavonic in Bosnia and Dalmatia, in Greek in Calabria and Sicily, and in Czech in Bohemia, for instance.”

Those were the vernacular.

 

[malphono]

Repeating myself, for the, what third, time.

The Mass was celebrated by dispensation in the vernacular.

From “What about the Latin Mass?” by Kevin Orlin Johnson, Ph.D., published by Pangaeus Press, in 2000.

I now quote.

“And it wasn’t always in Latin: there were papal indults permitting the celebration of the Tridentine Mass in Slavonic in Bosnia and Dalmatia, in Greek in Calabria and Sicily, and in Czech in Bohemia, for instance.”

Those were the vernacular.

Well, that’s not correct. Slavonic WAS NOT and IS NOT the vernacular in Dalmatia.

I’m not familiar with any “indult” for Bohemia, but it would seem strange since a good portion of Bohemia was German-speaking into the 19th century. Also I’ve never heard of any “indult” for the Roman Mass in Greek in Southern Italy, but Greek is not (and hasn’t been since the early days of the Roman Empire) the vernacular there.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Well, that’s not correct. Slavonic WAS NOT and IS NOT the vernacular in Dalmatia.

I’m not familiar with any “indult” for Bohemia, but it would seem strange since a good portion of Bohemia was German-speaking into the 19th century. Also I’ve never heard of any “indult” for the Roman Mass in Greek in Southern Italy, but Greek is not (and hasn’t been since the early days of the Roman Empire) the vernacular there.

Sorry but I think I will take the source I have over your word.

The issue is that the Mass has been celebrated in languages other than Latin since the time of Trent, this is not a new thing.

I don’t really see what your issue is with that other than to nit pick whether or not it was the vernacular.

As a side note. The vernacular is the language of the people. There could be a case where a parish Church, say in Southern Italy or Bohemia, might serve a certain portion of the population that natively speaks a language other than what you might consider the vernacular of the area yet that language would be the vernacular for them.

 

[malphono]

Sorry but I think I will take the source I have over your word.

Suit yourself.

I don’t really see what your issue is with that other than to nit pick whether or not it was the vernacular.

As a side note. The vernacular is the language of the people. There could be a case where a parish Church, say in Southern Italy or Bohemia, might serve a certain portion of the population that natively speaks a language other than what you might consider the vernacular of the area yet that language would be the vernacular for them.

Yes, thank you, I know what the word “vernacular” means. And Church Slavonic is not the vernacular in Dalmatia. Period. End of story. And end of my ride on this carousel. I have neither the interest nor the patience.

 

[ProVobis]

Moreover, if one sticks to the faulty interpretation, then people were under anathema a long time before Vatican II, if you consider sacraments like matrimony.

Good point. However, shouldn’t Trent be looked at as a response to the Reformists of that time? The Catholic Church was in serious trouble and partly of her own doing. (Selling indulgences, for example.) Also, Trent lasted for 23 some years so it wasn’t as if the Council Fathers wanted its anathemas transient.

 

[otjm]

It’s not just the loss of Latin, that is FAR less important than the loss of reverence that has accompanied it, and the removal of chunks out of the mass.

The translation of the Novus Ordo is awful, and completely untrue to the Latin. Because of this, the necessary reverence due to Our Lord has been lost.

And of course the N.O. mass is valid, that’s not at all what we’re talking about here.

Well, for starters, how about the chunks that were added - specifically more Scripture? Or does Scripture not count?

Completely untrue? Obviooulsy you do not know Latin. There are some words that went alltogether too far in terms of dynamic translation and need to be cleaned up.

And becuase some Latin was translated poorly, necessary r3verence has been lost? Maybe in your parish. But maybe, instead of expounding opinions as if they were facts, you might try visiting other areas and experiencing reverent Masses in the OF - like the ones I attended in North Dakota; the Mass in the cathedral in Salt Lake city; the one in my parish; or the one in the Trappist Abbey in Layfeyette, Oregon.

Lost, hmmm? Or you just haven’t found it, so now you can pronounce away.

 

[ProVobis]

Well, for starters, how about the chunks that were added - specifically more Scripture? Or does Scripture not count?

I’m not quite sure about this and I’m detecting a lot of disingenuousness in some of the claims made here. As I attend both EF and OF, I find the OF readings much shorter though there is one more reading in the OF. Also there are various psalms throughout and Last Gospel in the EF which were removed in the OF. Furthermore in the Offertory and Communion Prayers in the EF, some of the themes of the Gospel are repeated. Helps to remember what was in the Gospel 15 minutes after the Mass ends.

 

[otjm]

I’m not quite sure about this and I’m detecting a lot of disingenuousness in some of the claims made here. As I attend both EF and OF, I find the OF readings much shorter though there is one more reading in the OF. Also there are various psalms throughout and Last Gospel in the EF which were removed in the OF. Furthermore in the Offertory and Communion Prayers in the EF, some of the themes of the Gospel are repeated. Helps to remember what was in the Gospel 15 minutes after the Mass ends.

It is not my intent to trade bon mots of one vs. the other. I am tired of the over-reactions to the OF, and my comment was directed to the poster who was waxing a tad bit eloquent.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Suit yourself.

Yes, thank you, I know what the word “vernacular” means. And Church Slavonic is not the vernacular in Dalmatia. Period. End of story. And end of my ride on this carousel. I have neither the interest nor the patience.

Slavonic was only one of three languages the source mentioned.

But if you wish to ignore sources and not provide any of your own, then that is fine.

The only point I was trying to make, and I did make, is that the EF has been celebrated in languages other than Latin since the time of Trent so the canon there can not be referencing such a thing.

 

[ProVobis]

I am tired of the over-reactions to the OF

I think that goes both ways but, hey, if there’s too much heat in the chicken, you need not attend the EF or associate with anyone there. It’s not like there’s an EF in every Catholic parish.

 

[malphono]

Slavonic was only one of three languages the source mentioned.

I’m off the carousel, but apparently you didn’t bother to read by earlier posts.

But if you wish to ignore sources and not provide any of your own, then that is fine.

I’m off the carousel, but apparently you didn’t bother to read by earlier posts.

The only point I was trying to make, and I did make, is that the EF has been celebrated in languages other than Latin since the time of Trent so the canon there can not be referencing such a thing.

The Glagolitic recension of the pre-conciliar Roman Mass is fact. No one (at least not I) argues otherwise.

Mass celebrated in a language other than Latin is one thing. Insisting that Church Slavonic is a the vernacular is quite another. But again, I’m off the carousel. I don’t have the oomph for another of these absurd go-rounds.

 

[otjm]

I think that goes both ways but, hey, if there’s too much heat in the chicken, you need not attend the EF or associate with anyone there. It’s not like there’s an EF in every Catholic parish.

Well, I do not hear complaints about people putting the EF down, or making disparaging remarks. I honestly cannot see what the source of that complaint is, but will assume someone is making such remarks; they did not come from me.

I have by no means travelled all over the country. I have attended Mass in other states in at least several (more than two, but not many) parishes in each state. What I have found in Masses in North Dakota, Montana, Utah, northern California and Washington, as well as numerous parishes in Oregon are Masses said with at least as much reverence as the average Masses I attended as a youth before Vatican 2; the GIRM is followed, there are no “clown Masses” or dancing in the isle or heretical opinions expressed during the homilies and things are far improved over what they generally seemed to be 20 or more years ago.

I understand people’s anger - I have seen the abuses in the past and am not ignorant of them. And it may well be that there are dioceses which are still liberal enough that the GIRM is considered a pronouncement “dead on arrival” from “those who don’t get it” in Rome. The fact that I have not been exposed to them does not mean that they do not exist. But the over-reaction of some who paint the entire OF as somewhere between always bad to clearly invalid gets a bit old. The reality is otherwise. It is like someone saying “It always rains in Oregon”. Hyperbole aside, that is not the truth nor anywhere near it.

And it is not about heat (and I presume you meant kitchen, not chicken?); it is about truth. If something is wrong in a specific time and place, it is wrong. But going from a wrong to a universal is a prevarication. I have no use whatsoever of Sister Silly and Father Brainless who want to make the liturgy “relevant” and I will stand shoulder to shoulder with you on that one. And you have not been one to try to paint a universal picture, so my comment was not directed to you.

Part of Catholic faith is exercising charity, and part of charity is being truthful. The lack of charity concerning the OF is in some instances glaringly obvious. Being pharisaical was condemned 2000 years ago; we should have gotten the message by now.