Holy Orders Discussion

[otjm]

Umm… not sure that he proclaims “as deacon”. He proclaims as the celebrant (in the absence of a deacon).

I was taught that the reading of the Gospel is the role of a deacon. A priest is also a deacon, as he was ordained as such, and that ordination is not"consumed", or “eaten up” or “removed” or otherwise transpire upon his ordination as priest.

And that explains why, when a Solemn High Mass was said, back when I was in grade and high school, we had three priests on the altar; one as priest, one as deacon, and one as sub deacon. They were not “playing” the part; they were doing the part for which they had been ordained, previous to being ordained a priest.

 

[otjm]

Right. In his role in the parish, though, he falls under the authority of the pastor, no?

I don’t know to what extent he is under the authority of the pastor.

I was told of a parish in which there was a deacon, and apparently the priest did not get the memo, as he told the deacon that he, not the deacon, was going to read the Gospel.

The bishop did not mince words with the priest.

As to how much/how little authority the pastor has may be a matter of how much time the deacon has, how it is divided up (some have full time jobs as well as family) and I would presume most of it is worked out amicably. And presumably common sense will prevail, and we all know about common sense…

 

[Gorgias]

I was taught that the reading of the Gospel is the role of a deacon.

And the priest – as the priest celebrant! – takes that function when a deacon is not present. Check out the GIRM on the USCCB website…

And that explains why, when a Solemn High Mass was said

I wouldn’t know about that, and don’t have the free time to research it as deeply as I might wish. Nevertheless, we’re not talking about solemn high masses in the EF; we’re talking about the proclamation of the Gospel at Mass today, no?

I was told of a parish in which there was a deacon, and apparently the priest did not get the memo, as he told the deacon that he, not the deacon, was going to read the Gospel.

Right. Early on, some priests had no idea how to respond to the presence of deacons at their parish. It was a confusing time. Things have (generally) gotten better, as both priests and deacons have become more accustomed to the presence of permanent deacons at Mass.

The bishop did not mince words with the priest.

As was his right, since he is in charge of liturgy in his diocese. The priest overstepped his bounds, vis-a-vis the liturgy. However, when it comes to normal SOP in the parish, the pastor calls the shots.

 

[otjm]

And the priest – as the priest celebrant! – takes that function when a deacon is not present. Check out the GIRM on the USCCB website…

Which does not mean that he does not proclaim the Gospel as the deacon which he was first ordained; that ordination does not “disappear” or be “consumed in or by” the ordination as priest.

I wouldn’t know about that, and don’t have the free time to research it as deeply as I might wish. Nevertheless, we’re not talking about solemn high masses in the EF; we’re talking about the proclamation of the Gospel at Mass today, no?

Well, no; it simply supports that a priest, who previously was ordained a deacon, did not “lose” that ordination nor was it wiped out, removed, or recharacterized. He is both priest and deacon, and the vast majority of what he does, he does as priest.

However, when it comes to normal SOP in the parish, the pastor calls the shots.

I don’t recall saying otherwise; but I am not entirely sure to what extent the priest is “boss”. I have a friend who is a deacon in another parish, and the priest has not yet been incardinated so he is not the “pastor” at the parish. The deacon has several roles within the parish which he was serving under the last three priests (one, a pastor, the other two administrators after the pastor retired), and has stepped back for several of them for personal reasons. So as to the extend of authority, I am not sure that I would say the pastor is the “boss”, either in Canon law, or if that does not explicate it clearly, something else."Boss’ implies to me the ability to hire and fire - as the pastor has over lay staff.

A deacon can be the celebrant at baptism, can be the official witness at marriages, and can officiate at burial; not sure where the lines of authority as to who does what lay. If a couple requests the deacon for one of those, what authority does the pastor exercise over that? I don’t know. Does the pastor have the authority to demand either that the deacon be involved in all Masses on a weekend? Only some? None at all? Deacons may give a homily, although my understanding of the rules is that it is limited; can the pastor refuse to let the deacon preach? As “boss”?

 

[InThePew]

And the priest – as the priest celebrant! – takes that function when a deacon is not present. Check out the GIRM on the USCCB website…

Yes but only by default if he is the only celebrant - proclamation of the gospel is a ministerial function and not a presidential one and so if there is another priest present they should proclaim the gospel.

I am not sure that I would say the pastor is the “boss”, either in Canon law, or if that does not explicate it clearly, something else."Boss’ implies to me the ability to hire and fire - as the pastor has over lay staff.

A deacon can be the celebrant at baptism, can be the official witness at marriages, and can officiate at burial; not sure where the lines of authority as to who does what lay. If a couple requests the deacon for one of those, what authority does the pastor exercise over that? I don’t know. Does the pastor have the authority to demand either that the deacon be involved in all Masses on a weekend? Only some? None at all? Deacons may give a homily, although my understanding of the rules is that it is limited; can the pastor refuse to let the deacon preach? As “boss”?

The pastor is responsible for what happens in a parish and this includes the hiring / firing of staff. To the extent that a deacon “works” in a parish (e.g. as RE co-ordinator), he is under the authority of the pastor. The pastor can also decide how baptisms are to be allocated and the extent to which a deacon may preach. However, he cannot stop the deacon assisting at mass nor can he bench him completely. The parish is, in effect, the deacon’s ministry allocated to him by the bishop. A deacon also has a responsibility to his family (and, in some cases, secular job) and this needs to be taken into account in terms of the amount of work he can be expected to do. While a deacon does not enjoy the same protection against being shifted that a pastor has, in practical terms, it’s far easier to move a priest than a deacon.

Finally, when it comes to weddings and funerals, the families typically call the shots and, if anything, the priest will see the deacon’s involvement as being one less job for him to do!

 

[Gorgias]

Which does not mean that he does not proclaim the Gospel as the deacon which he was first ordained

You seem enamored by this idea. We’re just going around in circles now, so I’m think I’m done attempting to demonstrate that it’s not what the GIRM teaches us in its instructions.

a priest, who previously was ordained a deacon, did not “lose” that ordination nor was it wiped out, removed, or recharacterized. He is both priest and deacon, and the vast majority of what he does, he does as priest.

Priests act as priests. Not as deacons. They perform the ministry which really and truly was manifested distinctly from their ordination as deacons. If there were three sacraments of orders, I might be willing to concede the point. There aren’t. There is one sacrament, of three degrees.

So as to the extend of authority, I am not sure that I would say the pastor is the “boss”, either in Canon law

Really?

Can. 519 The pastor (parochus) is the proper pastor (pastor) of the parish entrusted to him, exercising the pastoral care of the community committed to him under the authority of the diocesan bishop in whose ministry of Christ he has been called to share, so that for that same community he carries out the functions of teaching, sanctifying, and governing, also with the cooperation of other presbyters or deacons and with the assistance of lay members of the Christian faithful, according to the norm of law.

Sure sound like the pastor is the ‘boss’ – after all, he’s the one who “exercis[es] the pastoral care of the community entrusted to him under the authority of the diocesan bishop”…

If a couple requests the deacon for one of those, what authority does the pastor exercise over that? I don’t know.

It tends to be cooperative. (At weddings, two Catholics getting married should generally be married in the context of a Nuptial Mass, so it would fall to a priest rather than to a deacon. (YMMV, and exceptions are sometimes granted.)). Still, it tends to be at the discretion of the pastor (who often wisely decides to allow such requests).

Deacons may give a homily, although my understanding of the rules is that it is limited; can the pastor refuse to let the deacon preach? As “boss”?

Yup.

 

[Gorgias]

Yes but only by default if he is the only celebrant - proclamation of the gospel is a ministerial function and not a presidential one and so if there is another priest present they should proclaim the gospel.

Sure, but @otjm’s point was that the person who proclaims is doing so “as a deacon”, even if he’s a priest. That doesn’t seem to hold up to scrutiny.

Finally, when it comes to weddings and funerals, the families typically call the shots and, if anything, the priest will see the deacon’s involvement as being one less job for him to do!

Yep!

 

[InThePew]

Sure, but @otjm’s point was that the person who proclaims is doing so “as a deacon”, even if he’s a priest. That doesn’t seem to hold up to scrutiny.

I can see what @otjm is trying to say and certainly it would make sense in the context of the EF but I don’t think the idea works with concelebration. When I proclaim the gospel in a ministerial role (i.e. when the bishop or another priest is the principal celebrant), I’m doing so as a priest since my participation in the mass as a concelebrant is obviously as a priest. So, I don’t stop put my priestly role on hold while I’m proclaiming the gospel, and then pick it up afterwards. In the EF there is no concelebration so when a priest fulfils the role of the deacon you could probably say he is doing so “as a deacon”.

 

[otjm]

You seem enamored by this idea. We’re just going around in circles now, so I’m think I’m done attempting to demonstrate that it’s not what the GIRM teaches us in its instructions.

That may be because you are talking rules and I am talking sacrament.

Priests act as priests . Not as deacons. They perform the ministry which really and truly was manifested distinctly from their ordination as deacons.

Except, as has been pointed out, part of the ministerial function of the deacon is proclaiming the Gospel. And the priest, who is also a deacon, proclaims the Gospel. It is a sacramental issue, not a GIRM issue.

 

[Diaconia]

Concelebrants do not ask a presiding priest for a blessing before proclaiming the Gospel.

They do ask the bishop for one, however. (On the rare occasion of a bishop presiding without any deacons).

Deacon Christopher

PS: My own Archbishop makes it a specific point at every liturgy before the final blessing to thank “my brother deacons.” Every cleric remains a deacon regardless of priestly or episcopal orders. One order does not subsume or swallow up the previous one(s).

 

[Usige]

Each parish and diocese will handle those things differently.

For instance in my diocese, when I’m ordained a few weeks hence, we will all receive two assignments. One will be a parish assignment and a second will be a diocesan assignment.

Parish duties will vary depending on the gifts of the individual deacon, the needs of the parish, and the desires of the supervising pastor. For instance, many deacons are heavily involved in marriage prep, but that is the pastor’s responsibility and some pastors “keep” that responsibility rather than delegating it to a deacon. That means a deacon in parish A might do marriage prep, but the pastor in parish B does it. It also means that if the pastor from parish B is reassigned to parish A, the deacon might suddenly find that they are no longer involved in marriage prep.

Our second assignment is areas like jail ministry, hospice, campus ministry, working with victims of sex trafficking, et cetera. The secondary assignment is normally not something the average person in the pews would ever see. These assignments are tied to the bishop and meeting the needs of the local church. If push comes to shove, we are not to neglect the diocesan assignment in favor of what the supervising pastor wants at the parish. Ultimately deacons assist the parish priest, but they “belong” to the bishop. A pastor can ask that a deacon be (or not be) assigned to their parish, but it is always at the Bishop’s discretion.

 

[Usige]

Sure sound like the pastor is the ‘boss’ – after all, he’s the one who “exercis[es] the pastoral care of the community entrusted to him under the authority of the diocesan bishop”…

The pastor has say over how he manages his parish, but he is not a deacon’s boss. Deacons technically report directly to the bishop (generally via a director of deacons). In the secular world, it is akin to the deacon having a dotted line reporting relationship to the supervising pastor.; something like being temporarily attached to one department while working in another department. The pastor might direct a deacon’s day to day activities, but they cannot remove or replace a deacon by their own volition. They are also not supposed to unduly impinge on a deacon performing his proper ministry. Now practically speaking, if a pastor wants to “fire” a deacon the deacon might be reassigned to another parish, but in my area priests who don’t work well with deacons tend to be assigned to smaller parishes where no deacon would be assigned.

 

[commenter]

Growing up in the 1950s, I never heard of deacons. While there wouldn’t have been Permanent Deacons of course, there must have been lots of transitional deacons.

In recent years transitional deacons spend that year as field placement, now in a parish, but I think that’s only post V2.

When did transitional deacons get designated as readers of the gospel in the Latin Rite? Or were they always doing this, at seminary and cathedral, just not visible to most laity?

In my Diocese in the 1970s transitionals were assigned their field year to Catholic Charities, which I think was better in some ways.

 

[Gorgias]

It is a sacramental issue, not a GIRM issue.

It really isn’t. But that’s ok.

Concelebrants do not ask a presiding priest for a blessing before proclaiming the Gospel. They do ask the bishop for one, however.

I’ve seen that happen. Since the GIRM only talks about a deacon requesting a blessing, that seemed odd. Then again, when your bishop asks you to do it… you do it.

My own Archbishop makes it a specific point at every liturgy before the final blessing to thank “my brother deacons.”

Is he referring to priests? Or just giving props to the permanent deacons of the diocese?

The pastor might direct a deacon’s day to day activities

Yep. That’s all I was trying to imply.

 

[Diaconia]

Diaconia:

Concelebrants do not ask a presiding priest for a blessing before proclaiming the Gospel. They do ask the bishop for one, however.

I’ve seen that happen. Since the GIRM only talks about a deacon requesting a blessing, that seemed odd. Then again, when your bishop asks you to do it… you do it.

Well, I think it has to do with the bishop is really the presiding minister of all Masses, the priest is deputized to represent him when he cannot be there in person. So, when he is actually in attendance, the minister proclaiming the Gospel asks for a blessing from him (typically the deacon, but in his absence one of the the concelebrating priests).

Another element may relate to requesting a blessing from a presiding (but not seated in choir) minister of higher rank (meaning episcopate over presbyterate, not honorary titles like monsignors or cardinals). I don’t remember if a priest would request a blessing from an abbot, (if no deacon was present), however.

Diaconia:

My own Archbishop makes it a specific point at every liturgy before the final blessing to thank “my brother deacons.”

Is he referring to priests? Or just giving props to the permanent deacons of the diocese?

No, he clearly means the deacons. “I want to thank Fr. Charlie, the Pastor here at St. Olaf, and my brother deacons Christopher and Jacob.”

For sure, deacons work with and for the priests (not just the pastor) in their parish assignments. But it is equally clear that they are the bishop’s assistants first and foremost, and receive their assignments from him. A pastor can’t say, “I don’t want a deacon at my parish,” for example. Or, “I won’t let deacons preach at St. Olaf,” or anything like that.