Holy Orders For Women--Women Deacons?

[Franciscan]

I apologize if my responses have been indecent, but the more and more I think about it they only way to deal with manifest heresy is to call it out for what it is, and state the obvious: Our Lord called only men to Holy Orders, as plainly recorded in Scripture.

No College kid(I wasn’t talking about you), I was talking about the decency not to label yourself Catholic in your profile if you advocate women priests and reject the teaching authority Magisterium. She has labeled herself- Catholic with a Capital C!

I added more info to that post to calrify.

 

[CollegeKid]

I see that now. For some reason the first time you posted it, on my computer, the forums only showed “so much for the decency.”

 

[ChemicalBean]

I may be a smart aleck, but at least I’m not a heretic.

Heretic: n. A person believing in or practicing religious heresy; a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.

Please quote where in this thread I have said anything to give you the right to call me a heretic, where I have stated what I personally believe.

---

“Hi Foot. I’m your mouth.”​

 

[CollegeKid]

Heretic: n. A person believing in or practicing religious heresy; a person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.

Please quote where in this thread I have said anything to give you the right to call me a heretic, where I have stated what I personally believe.

---

“Hi Foot. I’m your mouth.”​

Well, I’d go back and highlight it but I don’t feel its worth that much time on my part, as showing you what you said that seemed to be supporting heresy would basically require me to go back and highlight everything you’ve posted so far. I realize you haven’t come out and said plainly “I SUPPORT ORDAINING WOMEN,” but I was led to the conclusion that this is your position because it seems you’ve been trying to support women’s ordination by appealing to the grief of hypothetical female aspirants to holy orders who are denied this by the Church, and because you actually referred to someone’s posting of links their friend sent them to dissident websites as “scholarly research,” all the while saying nothing of the plain and simple fact that as recorded in the Sacred Scriptures, our Lord called only men to holy orders.

 

[CollegeKid]

Though you may find this hard to believe now, when I quipped that “at least I’m not a heretic” I was thinking of the hypothetical women you were positing more than of yourself. Furthermore, I acknowledge that if you aren’t actually Catholic (I don’t know since your profile doesn’t say) then technically you’re right, you’re not a heretic. You’re someone who is on the outside criticizing in.

 

[CollegeKid]

My mistake, I just re-checked your profile and it does say Catholic.

 

[BobP123]

A friend was trying to argue that women could (and should) be priests because “they were ordained as deacons and priests in the early church.” …
How can I debunk this?

This is true. However, as baptisms were generally administered to people in the naked state, it would have been inappropriate for males to baptize females. That was the only intent for “annointing” females for the diaconate position.

By the way, I heard this on Catholic Answers back in 2000.

 

[LilyM]

You see, for those who struggle with peace on this issue (and for their family and pastoral ministers), it’s not so “Black and White” after all. I believe that the high majority of people who advocate for women’s ordination are not out to destroy the church. They are just people who do listen to God for their vocation, and in their discernment process have discovered that God could call women to priesthood through a similar journey of discernment.

I think your humble opinion should consider this: For a woman in particular who heard the call, it would be very painful. She’d either have to choose to turn away from her true vocation and stay in the Catholic Church who gave it to her (but will not recognize it), or leave the church that she loves to ‘satisfy’ that calling in a church that does not have the fullness of the priesthood. Either way, it’s disintegrating, painful, and damaging. When one of us is hurt, we all hurt.

I’m glad to hear you say that the faithful have a RIGHT to the sacraments. Holy Orders is a sacrament.

So what if a man feels ‘called’ to be a mother, or a 70-year-old ‘called’ to be 25? I’m sure those who tell them that these things are both impossible and irrational would be causing them grief and possibly some psychological damage too. Doesn’t mean that their desires should be catered to though.

 

[THurifer2]

Bean,

A few Clarifications…Women were never ordained to the diaconate OR the priesthood…

As far as the priesthood goes the door has been closed on that issue with John Paul II… His statements on “ordination” of women in the sacrament of Holy Orders has been declared I beleive Ex-Cathedra as the the Church does not have the authority to Ordain Women… I also believe that the current pope has indicated that the issue is closed. Historically when the church declares issues closed it isn’t brought up agian for several hundreds of years. I am pretty sure that women will not be recieving the sacrament of Holy Orders any time soon but more likely never.

 

[Morning_Star15]

I don’t understand why such a big deal is made about women not being able to be ordained to the priesthood. Why not focus on the positive, what women in the Church ARE able to do? Catholic women, nuns or otherwise, are allowed and encouraged by the Church to be missionaries, nurses, teachers, run daycare centres, pray for the needs of the Church in contemplative religious orders… the list goes on and on. How many other religions offer this kind of freedom to women? In a lot of them, women can’t even be near the men during religious services. The Catholic Church gives both spouses equal rights in a marriage - how many other religions offer that? The Catholic Church allows both girls and boys to receive the same amount of religious education, and attend Catechism classes - in some religions girls are seriously disadvantaged in this regard.

I could go on like this for a long time , but suffice it to say that I think Catholic women should be counting their blessings and thinking about how many things the Catholic Church does allow them to do, and starting allowing them to do before the secular world or many other religions did, instead of grumbling that it’s still not good enough. That’s just my :twocents:

 

[Linda_Marie]

First – I do not want to be a priest, never wanted to be a priest and I would feel very uncomfortable with a priestess presiding at Mass if it were allowed. It just would not feel right. I accept Church teaching and I obey.

But…

I find it hurtful that all the decision-making authority positions in the Church are reserved to men. I am excluded from this – not because I am immoral, not because I don’t have the skills or the knowledge but due to an accident of birth. I cannot change this. I cannot improve myself, study harder, go to confession more frequently and thus be made acceptable. Nothing will ever make me acceptable and this is what is hurtful. It says to me before I even ask – “YOU ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE – You are not good enough and never will be cause you’re just a [worthless] female!”

Here I am converting (this was 27 years ago), trying to discern my calling and I get told right off the bat, “well, we have seven sacraments but you are not permitted one of them because you were born a woman, so don’t even think about it.” It really did feel like a slap in the face. Once the teaching of the Church is all explained and set out, it sounds more reasonable, but when it is just presented to you like that – bluntly - it feels like the biggest put-down – even though I already knew that the priesthood was all-male and truly was not even thinking about it…

I grew up in Saudi Arabia, where women are just barely above animals in terms of standing in society. I still have issues with self-worth because of this. I learned all the things I could not do because I was a worthless female, places I could not go, clothes I could not wear in public, activities in which I could not participate. To get the same argument from the Church…

The message I have received is that women can be part of the Church, they just can’t participate as fully as men can because they are permanently barred from one of the Sacraments. Sort of… second-class. No Sacraments are forbidden to men outright, simply because they are male.

Oh, well. Just add this to my cross and help me to carry it, please, Lord. Because The Church is Your Church and her teachings are Your teachings., and if I am second-class, then help me to accept it with humility.

By the way – what would the Church do in this situation?

A girl grows up with gender confusion and has a sex change operation to become male. Somewhere down the track, s/he repents and converts and feels called to the priesthood.

Would it be possible for this person to receive Holy Orders? Or would the Church say this person was still female despite the surgical alteration and therefore not eligible?

 

[BillyT92679]

First – I do not want to be a priest, never wanted to be a priest and I would feel very uncomfortable with a priestess presiding at Mass if it were allowed. It just would not feel right. I accept Church teaching and I obey.

But…

I find it hurtful that all the decision-making authority positions in the Church are reserved to men. I am excluded from this – not because I am immoral, not because I don’t have the skills or the knowledge but due to an accident of birth. I cannot change this. I cannot improve myself, study harder, go to confession more frequently and thus be made acceptable. Nothing will ever make me acceptable and this is what is hurtful. It says to me before I even ask – “YOU ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE – You are not good enough and never will be cause you’re just a [worthless] female!”

Here I am converting (this was 27 years ago), trying to discern my calling and I get told right off the bat, “well, we have seven sacraments but you are not permitted one of them because you were born a woman, so don’t even think about it.” It really did feel like a slap in the face. Once the teaching of the Church is all explained and set out, it sounds more reasonable, but when it is just presented to you like that – bluntly - it feels like the biggest put-down – even though I already knew that the priesthood was all-male and truly was not even thinking about it…

I grew up in Saudi Arabia, where women are just barely above animals in terms of standing in society. I still have issues with self-worth because of this. I learned all the things I could not do because I was a worthless female, places I could not go, clothes I could not wear in public, activities in which I could not participate. To get the same argument from the Church…

The message I have received is that women can be part of the Church, they just can’t participate as fully as men can because they are permanently barred from one of the Sacraments. Sort of… second-class. No Sacraments are forbidden to men outright, simply because they are male.

Oh, well. Just add this to my cross and help me to carry it, please, Lord. Because The Church is Your Church and her teachings are Your teachings., and if I am second-class, then help me to accept it with humility.

By the way – what would the Church do in this situation?

A girl grows up with gender confusion and has a sex change operation to become male. Somewhere down the track, s/he repents and converts and feels called to the priesthood.

Would it be possible for this person to receive Holy Orders? Or would the Church say this person was still female despite the surgical alteration and therefore not eligible?

No, you have to be born male, and also be psychologically able to be a Priest (especially in late of the sex abuse crisis). Repentence alone does not mean the Bishop can call people.

It’s ontological. The Priestly act is equivalent to the male role in marital relations. Consecration is unitative and procreative in the same sense as relations are. It brings people together with God and themselves (Communion) and it brings forth Sacramental Grace. 90% of Catholic MEN are not meant to be Priests.
It’s something that is very, very specific, and none of us… not me, not you, not anyone should presume that we know more about it than the Church. This is a matter of dogma. Being frustrated with it is no different, no matter how any of us might personally feel, than being frustrated with a Triune Godhead. It’s being bothered by something that is dogmatically revealed.

 

[BillyT92679]

To me, like how Aquinas declared God’s existence using reason alone, I think it can be shown how to defend a male-only Priesthood without even mentioning things like In Persona Christi, or Alter Christus. Mentioning those vital components seals the deal. Women cannot be in the Person of Christ, or Other Christs, since they do not possess literal physical manifestations of masculinity. Christ is married to Mother Church literally as a man is married to a woman.

 

[CollegeKid]

First – I do not want to be a priest, never wanted to be a priest and I would feel very uncomfortable with a priestess presiding at Mass if it were allowed. It just would not feel right. I accept Church teaching and I obey.

But…

I find it hurtful that all the decision-making authority positions in the Church are reserved to men. I am excluded from this – not because I am immoral, not because I don’t have the skills or the knowledge but due to an accident of birth. I cannot change this. I cannot improve myself, study harder, go to confession more frequently and thus be made acceptable. Nothing will ever make me acceptable and this is what is hurtful. It says to me before I even ask – “YOU ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE – You are not good enough and never will be cause you’re just a [worthless] female!”

Here I am converting (this was 27 years ago), trying to discern my calling and I get told right off the bat, “well, we have seven sacraments but you are not permitted one of them because you were born a woman, so don’t even think about it.” It really did feel like a slap in the face. Once the teaching of the Church is all explained and set out, it sounds more reasonable, but when it is just presented to you like that – bluntly - it feels like the biggest put-down – even though I already knew that the priesthood was all-male and truly was not even thinking about it…

I grew up in Saudi Arabia, where women are just barely above animals in terms of standing in society. I still have issues with self-worth because of this. I learned all the things I could not do because I was a worthless female, places I could not go, clothes I could not wear in public, activities in which I could not participate. To get the same argument from the Church…

The message I have received is that women can be part of the Church, they just can’t participate as fully as men can because they are permanently barred from one of the Sacraments. Sort of… second-class. No Sacraments are forbidden to men outright, simply because they are male.

Oh, well. Just add this to my cross and help me to carry it, please, Lord. Because The Church is Your Church and her teachings are Your teachings., and if I am second-class, then help me to accept it with humility.

By the way – what would the Church do in this situation?

A girl grows up with gender confusion and has a sex change operation to become male. Somewhere down the track, s/he repents and converts and feels called to the priesthood.

Would it be possible for this person to receive Holy Orders? Or would the Church say this person was still female despite the surgical alteration and therefore not eligible?

Let me say first that I am very happy that you can accept this teaching though it is a cross for you. Don’t think for a minute that your cross will not bear fruit. Your faith will be rewarded. In my short life I’ve only had a few crosses to bear, none of them have been catastrophic or unbearable, but they have helped me mature as a Christian. Getting through them by relying on God in prayer and His grace in the sacraments has made my faith stronger.

Second, just because you cannot be a priest, just because you are a woman, **you are not a second-class citizen in the Church **. We are all equal in God’s eyes. But we have different functions. As motherhood is a function reserved to women, the priesthood is a function reserved to certain men, and men only. Why is this? I’m sure you probably know the standard answers.

We might as well ask why God chose to become man in the person of Jesus Christ as opposed to taking a female body and nature. This is simply a subject that is not as of yet surrounded by a large body of theology, though it is developing along lines already mentioned, such as that the priest, acting In Persona Christi, configured by ordination to Christ and His office in a way essentially different from that of us laypersons, must act in the office of His marriage to the Church, as the Bridegroom.

We know that the in a marriage the bridegroom is male and the bride female. Because of the parallels in the relationships between Christ and the Church and an individual husband and wife, the priesthood must be reserved to men.

Rather, as we see that God created us male and female, and God instituted marriage to be between one male and one female, and God came into the world becoming a male person, we also see that we the Church are Christ’s Mystical Body and His Bride, and since his priests are acting in His person on earth, standing in His place as the Bridegroom, a priest must be male.

 

[CollegeKid]

Linda Marie,

Furthermore, I think some of us tend to think the Church is treating women as second class citizens by denying them the priesthood because of the public element of service in the priesthood and the natural human inclination to mostly notice servants whose service is highly public, like firefighters and soldiers, to the exclusion of less visible servants, like Red Cross workers.

But just because something is out there for all to see doesn’t mean its necessarily more important or better. Sometimes priests do get “put on the pedestal,” so to speak, but you have to remember that despite the image that may build up around priests or any individual priest, the Church does not teach that any of this publicity, or even the priest’s holy order that he receives through ordination, this indelible mark on his soul, makes him holier or a higher-class citizen in the Church than any of the rest of us.

In the first paragraph I stated that just because something has a highly public element of service to it, it doesn’t necessarily make it more important or intrinsically “better.” This was not to negate the priesthood. I think there is a hierarchy of vocations, and that priesthood is at the top. But there importance has nothing to do with public exposure. It has everything to do with the fact that they dispense God’s grace in the sacraments, according to the plan of salvation. Nevertheless, as one poster noted, that also means that in addition to no women being able to serve in this capacity, neither can the vast majority of men!

Again, that only men can be priests really has nothing to do with men being considered first class and women second in the Church, its bound up in the fact that the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, God the Son who taken in His divine nature alone has no human gender, even before the Creation and the Incarnation of the God the Son as the man Jesus Christ, ** the Second Person in the Triune Godhead is an eternal high priest.** It is a quality unique to the Second Person of the Trinity, without beginning or end, but eternally and timeless.

The Holy Trinity willed that God the Son come to earth and become human as a male, and I think this must necessarily be tied to the fact that Jesus taught us to call God “Our Father.” The ministerial priests of God’s Church derive their sacramental, sacrifical function from the Eternal High Priesthood of God the Son, thus they must be male. The shadow of God that we know as maleness, while not in terms of bodily gender, is simply an eternal, unchangeable quality of God. Why this is, this is a not fully knoweable to us humans. About as much as we can say is that it just is. Like all the truths of our faith, whether we’re talking about Jesus’ very own body and blood in the Eucharist or God’s Divine Mercy in the Sacrament of Confession, it is a Mystery.

 

[LilyM]

First – I do not want to be a priest, never wanted to be a priest and I would feel very uncomfortable with a priestess presiding at Mass if it were allowed. It just would not feel right. I accept Church teaching and I obey.

But…

I find it hurtful that all the decision-making authority positions in the Church are reserved to men. I am excluded from this – not because I am immoral, not because I don’t have the skills or the knowledge but due to an accident of birth. I cannot change this. I cannot improve myself, study harder, go to confession more frequently and thus be made acceptable. Nothing will ever make me acceptable and this is what is hurtful. It says to me before I even ask – “YOU ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE – You are not good enough and never will be cause you’re just a [worthless] female!”

Here I am converting (this was 27 years ago), trying to discern my calling and I get told right off the bat, “well, we have seven sacraments but you are not permitted one of them because you were born a woman, so don’t even think about it.” It really did feel like a slap in the face. Once the teaching of the Church is all explained and set out, it sounds more reasonable, but when it is just presented to you like that – bluntly - it feels like the biggest put-down – even though I already knew that the priesthood was all-male and truly was not even thinking about it…

I grew up in Saudi Arabia, where women are just barely above animals in terms of standing in society. I still have issues with self-worth because of this. I learned all the things I could not do because I was a worthless female, places I could not go, clothes I could not wear in public, activities in which I could not participate. To get the same argument from the Church…

The message I have received is that women can be part of the Church, they just can’t participate as fully as men can because they are permanently barred from one of the Sacraments. Sort of… second-class. No Sacraments are forbidden to men outright, simply because they are male.

Oh, well. Just add this to my cross and help me to carry it, please, Lord. Because The Church is Your Church and her teachings are Your teachings., and if I am second-class, then help me to accept it with humility.

By the way – what would the Church do in this situation?

A girl grows up with gender confusion and has a sex change operation to become male. Somewhere down the track, s/he repents and converts and feels called to the priesthood.

Would it be possible for this person to receive Holy Orders? Or would the Church say this person was still female despite the surgical alteration and therefore not eligible?

Please don’t ever feel that you’re second class because you can’t be a priest

Neither can married people (usually) be priests. Even the Eastern Catholic rites which allow married priests (and even they can’t marry AFTER ordination nor remarry if their wives die) usually don’t have married Bishops. And there hasn’t been a married Pope (probably not a married Cardinal either) for 1200 years!

And yet marriage certainly isn’t a second-class vocation. While it’s true that the sacrament of Holy Orders isn’t open to some of us, neither is the sacrament of Matrimony open to celibate priests or monks, so the restrictions very much go both ways.

 

[CollegeKid]

The point I was trying to drive home in the first half of that last one, which I think I mucked up considerably, is that while what a priest does in the world, his ministry, his work at the service of others teaching and administering the sacraments for our salvation, is more important than all other work.

But in the Church that does not make priests first class citizens and the rest of us second class citizens. If it did, then most men in the Church would also be second class citizens, right there with the women.

All of what I’ve said, however, are just my theological ramblings in an attempt to relate Orthodox Catholic doctrine on the matter, with my own twist, gleamed from what little studying I’ve done so far. I am no theologian, not by a long shot. Please feel free to correct me if you think I’m off.

 

[apriltherese]

Second, just because you cannot be a priest, just because you are a woman, you are not a second-class citizen in the Church . We are all equal in God’s eyes. But we have different functions. As motherhood is a function reserved to women, the priesthood is a function reserved to certain men, and men only. Why is this? I’m sure you probably know the standard answers.

This discussion has brought me to an interesting question (at least, IMO): If men and women serve different functions (and they do - I am not debating any of this) within marriage and/or the church, what can a woman do that a man cannot? From my understanding, a monk is basically a male version of a nun - so what function within the church does a woman perform that a man does not?

 

[ChemicalBean]

So what if a man feels ‘called’ to be a mother, or a 70-year-old ‘called’ to be 25? I’m sure those who tell them that these things are both impossible and irrational would be causing them grief and possibly some psychological damage too. Doesn’t mean that their desires should be catered to though.

I really, really dislike this argument because it’s a non sequitur. It does not follow that a woman cannot be a priest (or a deacon, for that matter - the topic of this thread) because a man cannot be a mother. You don’t have to tell me that a man cannot be a physical mother that a woman cannot be a physical father - that’s quite obvious. But, as Christians, we are all called at some point to spiritual parenthood. Sometimes it’s toward our children, other times toward our friends, and even sometimes toward our own parents. I suppose spiritually, we are all male in the sense that we are to plant and tend seeds of holiness in others, an exterior evangelization. And likewise, we are all female in the sense that we are to nourish and bring those seeds to fruition in ourselves, an interior evangelization. We all have to do both types of work to bear Christ in the world.

 

[CollegeKid]

This discussion has brought me to an interesting question (at least, IMO): If men and women serve different functions (and they do - I am not debating any of this) within marriage and/or the church, what can a woman do that a man cannot? From my understanding, a monk is basically a male version of a nun - so what function within the church does a woman perform that a man does not?

Though you might roll your eyes at this, I would say Childbirth, first and foremost. Before you discount this as being simply “within marriage,” remember that marriage, properly ordered (that is licit, valid and sacramental) is a sacrament of the Church, and that the sacrament is ordered toward procreation, its purpose.

When I talk about marriage as a sacrament, I don’t just mean the nuptial Mass and the vows, I mean marriage taken in its entire context- two people remaining together their entire lives, hopefully loving one another, remaining faithful to one another, supporting each other in their faith, raising children who do the same and are decent, upstanding individuals, and receiving special grace from God through this process. Do you know who is the minister of the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony? It’s not the priest. It’s the husband, who administers the sacrament to his wife in the consumation of marriage, the marital act.

Maybe this doesn’t seem all that significant until you consider that the greatest of the Saints is a woman, the Blessed Virgin Mary, and that she is venerated first and foremost because she gave birth to Our Lord.