I suggest watching the movie Pope Pius XII which is playing on EWTN or order it.I was reading the August 2014 issue of the Philadelphia Trumpet, and they have the link to an article which you can download at theTrumpet.com/go/GermanyID. Has anyone read this? They also have a free e-book on Pius XII’s regime helping ex-Nazis escape (theTrumpet.com/go/ratlines), and a free booklet one can request from them titled Germany and the Holy Roman Empire. Anyone out there know much about this?
Thanks
I was going to say the same thing!!!“It was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Discuss.”
I’ve always heard that quote and one thing about it bothers me: What defines an Empire other than that it is lead by an Emperor(and/or is large)? On Google I got: “an extensive group of states or countries ruled over by a single monarch, an oligarchy, or a sovereign state.” but the Holy Roman Empire fits into that too. It wasn’t Roman and how Holy it was is up for debate but it certainly seems to have been Empire.“It was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Discuss.”
The HRE of 1756 was a very different animal from the HRE of 1356 or 1556.“It was neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire. Discuss.”
You have to be careful about the phrasing of such a statement - various members of the clergy (some quite senior) were involved in the ‘ratlines’.The Pope’s people helped Jews escape the Nazi’s in Italy during WW2, they didn’t help the Nazis.
Interestingly enough, the sun still doesn’t set on the British Empire and won’t for at least the next 1,000 years if the UK keeps its current territory.Certainly Great Britain had an extraordinary reach around the globe–the sun never sets, right?.
Some of the emperors we refer to as “Roman” really weren’t Roman either. Here’s a list from one site.I think it’s safe to call the HRE an empire, because it did control a comparatively large number of cultures, peoples, nation-states, etc. Certainly Great Britain had an extraordinary reach around the globe–the sun never sets, right?–but it would be appropriate to refer to the HRE as an E.
Holy and Roman, IIRC, had as much to do with politics as it did with religion. Probably more so.
With all due respect, I mentioned the “Pope’s people.” I did not mention renegade clergy who were not real Catholics. Any priest who willfully helped the Nazis wasn’t a real Catholic. And many Germans, even Catholic ones, were blinded by nationalism. Not to mention few knew how evil Hitler really was at the time.You have to be careful about the phrasing of such a statement - various members of the clergy (some quite senior) were involved in the ‘ratlines’.
Well the Roman Empire was a multi-cultural, multi-ethnic empire. Anyone who adhered to the Roman state or adopted Roman customs was already considered a Roman. Just as how anyone who applies for American citizenship is already considered an American - regardless of ethnicity. George Washington was English; Andrew Jackson was Scots-Irish; James Monroe was Scottish; John F. Kennedy was Irish; Barack Obama’s father was Kenyan.Some of the emperors we refer to as “Roman” really weren’t Roman either. Here’s a list from one site.
Augustus - Roman Italian (born at Velitrae, southeast of Rome)
Tiberius - Roman Italian
Gaius “Caligula” - Roman Italian (born at Antium)
Claudius - Roman Italian (born at Lugdunum in Gaul)
Nero - Roman Italian (born at Antium)
Galba - Roman Italian
Otho - Etruscan
Vitellius - unknown, presumably Italian
Vespasian - Sabine
Titus - Sabine
Domitian - Sabine
Nerva - Italian or Cisalpine Gaulish (born at Narnia)
Trajan - Umbrian Italian (family had settled in Spanish Baetica)
Hadrian - Picenine Italian (family had settled in Spanish Baetica)
Antoninus Pius - Gaulish (born in Latium)
Marcus Aurelius - Gaulish and Spanish
Commodus - Gaulish and Spanish (born in Rome)
Pertinax - unknown (family of slave origins)
Julianus - unknown, probably Roman Italian
Albinus - Italian
Pescennius Niger - Roman Italian
Septimius Severus - Carthaginian and Celtic
Caracalla - Carthaginian, Celtic, and Syrian
Macrinus - Italian (family had settled in Punic Africa)
Elagabalus - Syrian
Severus Alexander - Syrian
Maximinus Thrax - probably Dacian (supposedly Thracian and Sarmatian)
The Gordiani - unknown (probably mixed Italian, African, and Asian)
Philip the Arab - Mesopotamian or Syrian Arab
Decius - Illyrian or Pannonian (born at Budalia near Sirmium)
Trebonianus Gallus - Perusian Etruscan
Aemilian - Mauretanian
Valerian - unknown
Gallienus - unknown
Claudius Gothicus - Illyrian
Aurelian - Moesian
Tacitus and Florian - unknown, possibly Italian or Danubian
Probus - Illyrian or Pannonian (born at Sirmium)
Carus - probably Gaulish and Greek (born at Narbo)
Carinus and Numerian - probably Gaulish and Greek
Diocletian - Dalmatian Illyrian
Maximian - probably Illyrian or Pannonian
Carausius - Menapian Gaul
Constantius Chlorus - Moesian or Dacian
Galerius - Dacian
Severus II - Danubian
Maxentius - Danubian and Syrian
Constantine I and his sons - Moesian or Dacian
I merely said that particular argument had to be carefully phrased - I didn’t say you hadn’t done so or that it was necessary to come up with ‘naughty Catholics are not Catholics’, though it’s a good conversation stopper, obviously (with all due respect).With all due respect, I mentioned the “Pope’s people.” I did not mention renegade clergy who were not real Catholics.
I expect that she points out, with lots and lots of respect, that the Poles killed were killed because they were Slavic ‘sub-humans’ and not because they were Catholic.Also, (again with lots of respect) I often mention to my Jewish wife that history forgets that millions of Polish Catholics were murdered by the Nazis. 6 million Jews were killed in Poland and 3 million Christians (the majority were Catholic).
There is a lot of anti-Catholic propaganda out there regarding what Pope Pius XII knew vs didn’t know, did vs didn’t do.
The only thing I’ve ever said about Pius XII was that he was between a rock and a hard place and that some of his decisions were arguable. I don’t accept Pinchas Lapide’s ‘back of an envelope’ 860,000 figure but there’s no point in having a conversation about it because he never explained how he’d come up with it himself.What we know is that the Pope was secretly using convents and monasteries to save Jews. Over 800,000 Jews were saved by priests and nuns, who were getting support from the pope. But no one seems to realize this. In hindsight, maybe the Pope could have done more or did things different. Hind sight is always 20-20.
Ye but the question is whether Pius XII thought the Nazis should be held responsible for their actions after the warWith all due respect, I mentioned the “Pope’s people.” I did not mention renegade clergy who were not real Catholics. Any priest who willfully helped the Nazis wasn’t a real Catholic. And many Germans, even Catholic ones, were blinded by nationalism. Not to mention few knew how evil Hitler really was at the time.
Also, (again with lots of respect) I often mention to my Jewish wife that history forgets that millions of Polish Catholics were murdered by the Nazis. 6 million Jews were killed in Poland and 3 million Christians (the majority were Catholic).
There is a lot of anti-Catholic propaganda out there regarding what Pope Pius XII knew vs didn’t know, did vs didn’t do.
What we know is that the Pope was secretly using convents and monasteries to save Jews. Over 800,000 Jews were saved by priests and nuns, who were getting support from the pope. But no one seems to realize this. In hindsight, maybe the Pope could have done more or did things different. Hind sight is always 20-20.
The problem with the idea of renegade clergy is that there is no record of disciplinary action against them until the public outcry started after the war.With all due respect, I mentioned the “Pope’s people.” I did not mention renegade clergy who were not real Catholics.
Do you realize that the Auschwitz-Birkenau facility had Catholics on the staff? Heck, it was managed by a Catholic!Also, (again with lots of respect) I often mention to my Jewish wife that history forgets that millions of Polish Catholics were murdered by the Nazis. 6 million Jews were killed in Poland and 3 million Christians (the majority were Catholic).
But there’s really no record of organized Jew-saving effort by the Catholic Church. In contrast, the Polish Underground State had created a special organization for the purpose (Żegota).Over 800,000 Jews were saved by priests and nuns, who were getting support from the pope.