Holy See reaffirms call for Two-State Solution at UN

[vz71]

Holy See reaffirms call for Two-State Solution at UN

“An immediate ceasefire, the release of hostages, protection of all civilians, and unhindered humanitarian aid are urgent moral and legal necessities.”

aleteia.org

The Holy See’s diplomatic approach is grounded in decades of careful, deliberate engagement. It recognized the State of Israel in 1993 and the State of Palestine in 2015. Archbishop Caccia reiterated this balanced stance, affirming both peoples’ right to live “in freedom, security, and dignity within independent and sovereign states.”

I am a little concerned here. Hamas is the governing body of the gaza strip, and they are a terrorist organization.

I do not believe it is possible to insure the freedom, security, and dignity of individuals while leaving them subject to that governing body.

 

[BartholomewB]

The two-state solution is what many Israelis have been hoping for, over the years — though not so many nowadays, of course, for obvious reasons — but the Palestinian leadership has always rejected it. "From the river to the sea" — too many of them are still taking that slogan seriously, meaning they still want to abolish the State of Israel and have the whole place to themselves.

The Vatican diplomats know that only too well, of course. Whatever their reasons may be for pretending they still believe in the two-state solution, let them go ahead with their plans. We'll see what comes of it soon enough.

 

[Nanny1935]

Holy See reaffirms call for Two-State Solution at UN

“An immediate ceasefire, the release of hostages, protection of all civilians, and unhindered humanitarian aid are urgent moral and legal necessities.”

aleteia.org

The Holy See’s diplomatic approach is grounded in decades of careful, deliberate engagement. It recognized the State of Israel in 1993 and the State of Palestine in 2015. Archbishop Caccia reiterated this balanced stance, affirming both peoples’ right to live “in freedom, security, and dignity within independent and sovereign states.”

I am a little concerned here. Hamas is the governing body of the gaza strip, and they are a terrorist organization.

I do not believe it is possible to insure the freedom, security, and dignity of individuals while leaving them subject to that governing body.

Agree with your concern. Quite a few countries are using two-state solution as pressure for humanitarian reasons- to bring a peaceful solution soon and end civilian deaths. Probably it is one of the goals of the Holy See.
Meanwhile, Israel responded to increased pressure by announcing today it will invade Gaza (an option the Israeli military had not recommended for the toll on Israeli lives), in order to re-establish peace, manage the humanitarian crisis, bring the hostages home and influence the transition to a new Gaza government, without Hamas- on the ground fighting would intensify in the coming months.

 

[BartholomewB]

"A single state for Jews and Arabs, the Plan B of the Catholic Church"

This article by Sandro Magister, now nearly a year old, is even more important today than when it first appeared:

A Single State for Jews and Arabs. The Plan B of the Catholic Church | Diakonos.be

Speaking on September 28 to the United Nations General Assembly, cardinal secretary of state Pietro Parolin reaffirmed for the umpteenth time that “the only viable solution” to ensure peace between Israel and the Palestinians “is a two-state solution with Jerusalem having a special status.” In...

www.diakonos.be

 

[vz71]

I can't say I am looking forward to Israel taking over the strip, it is going to be pretty bloody at the outset.
But eventually that will subside.

I cannot see any other good solution to it.

Yes, there is tremendous discrimination against anyone that is not Jewish by Israel, but at least they are not killing anyone.

I think of it this way....
If Mexico were constantly antagonizing, shooting, and trying to push the border North, how long would the US put up with it before we took over.
I think Israel has a lot more patience then the US.

 

[Nanny1935]

Thank you for sharing the article on the one state proposal. The compassionate work of Cardinal Pizzaballa is recognized far and beyond the Catholic world (he was a favorite for the Papacy at an influential Synagogue in NY). The dedication of Fr Neuhaus working on closing the breach between Palestinians and Israelis, deserves the attention in the article.
I feel that one state is not a plan B, rather a long term project, that may come to fruition after both states have consolidated their identities and reached democratic maturity. The work of of Pissaballa and Neuhaus (who teaches at the Bethlehem University in the West Bank) might inspire ordained and secular Catholics alike to support this goal.

 

[BartholomewB]

... after both states have consolidated their identities and reached democratic maturity.

Thank you, @Nanny1935, for your reply but this point is evidently the one on which we disagree. I see no prospect at all, in the foreseeable future, of the two-state solution ever becoming the real situation on the ground. As I said in my post #2 on this thread, I believe that the Holy See representatives at the UN see no such prospect, either, and are only pretending they do in order to achieve some other, different, aim. It's just a negotiating maneuver of some kind.

Whatever their true aim may be, I hope they succeed in attaining it. And if it helps to bring about the one-state solution, so much the better!!

 

[Nanny1935]

Thank you, @Nanny1935, for your reply but this point is evidently the one on which we disagree. I see no prospect at all of the two-state solution ever becoming the real situation on the ground. As I said in my post #2 on this thread, I believe that the Holy See representatives at the UN see no such prospect, either, and are only pretending they do in order to achieve some other, different, aim. It's just a negotiating maneuver of some kind.

Whatever their true aim may be, I hope they succeed in attaining it. And if it helps to bring about the one-state solution, so much the better!!

The right of return is fundamental to the creation of Israel, and a major impediments for a unified project. To protect it, I think, I am not an expert, would require a Jewish Majority in Government- Palestinians might never agree to that, even if they have equality assured in other rights.
I do not know if a two state solution will ever happen.
I agree with your post. Palestinian rejected the partition in 1947, they have consistently refused to recognize Israel, despite signing the Oslo accord in 1993, but....perhaps enough Palestinians are getting tired with the situation and are willing to a truce.
Peace is needed,

 

[BartholomewB]

“Humanity must decide: which side are you on?”
—Mosab Hassan Yousef, 48, son of one of the founding members of Hamas.

“I see Gaza as an old, giant refugee camp that was supposed to be dismantled some 50 years ago,” he said. “Instead, the UN, the international community, the Arab world and con artists all benefited from the suffering of the refugees. This is where they spread their ideologies and hatred, and where they recruited people—mostly from the refugee camps.”

https://www.ynetnews.com/culture/article/byz8hexa6eex#autoplay

The name was unknown to me until now. He clearly knows what he’s talking about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosab_Hassan_Yousef

 

[Nanny1935]

“Humanity must decide: which side are you on?”
—Mosab Hassan Yousef, 48, son of one of the founding members of Hamas.

“I see Gaza as an old, giant refugee camp that was supposed to be dismantled some 50 years ago,” he said. “Instead, the UN, the international community, the Arab world and con artists all benefited from the suffering of the refugees. This is where they spread their ideologies and hatred, and where they recruited people—mostly from the refugee camps.”

https://www.ynetnews.com/culture/article/byz8hexa6eex#autoplay

The name was unknown to me until now. He clearly knows what he’s talking about.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosab_Hassan_Yousef

Yousef clearly has inside information, as for his words- they are confusing. How has the UN or the international community benefited from supporitng Gaza? They have send millions, which Hamas has diverted to terrorist activities.

From interviews in the west, Yousef doesn't belief there exist a Palestinian ethnicity, nor a legitimate claim to the land, hence he doesn't explicitly advocate for a traditional one-state solution in which both Israelis and Palestinians would share a state with equal rights, his positions could be interpreted as supporting a one-state reality where Israel maintains control. He is primarily focused on eradicating what he perceives as extremist ideologies and promoting peace through different means.
His advocacy is based on the pragmatic reality that Israel would have an advantage to curb terrorism in the area.
But what happens next? Can a peace in which Palestinians are absorbed into an Israeli state endure? “Humanity must decide: which side are you on?” takes a special meaning for the aspiration of many Palestinians.

On the other hand, this extreme position could be a facade - according to the wiki entry, others doubts Yousef's authenticity:
"Walid Shoebat, a former Muslim who became a Christian Zionist, has argued that Yousef presents different versions of his beliefs depending on whether he interacts with Anglophone or Arabic media.

According to Shoebat, Yousef has promoted Palestinian liberation theology– which is anti-Israel– on Al-Arabiya and the Arabic show Daring Question. He wore a keffiyeh during his interview with Daring Question, and on Al-Arabiya he stated "we will have our victory against Israel" and that "Israel is the problem and as an occupation it needs to end".

This shows how complex and difficult the problem is- distrust permeates all interactions.
In the present Palestinians have no good alternatives- anything good will only come with time- the support work to help them get to a better place, like that of the Catholic charities in the area is paramount.

 

[Nanny1935]

BartholomewB, thanks for post on Mosab Yousef- it got me thinking about parallels with the current president of Syria,
Ahmed al-Sharaa, who was an ISIS militant before going independent, rebelling and now democratic (perhaps).
The twists when seeking power are many, as there are complexities in a true conversion to peace activist. It seems Yousef may aspire to be a leader of the Palestine people, inspiring peace and hoping for prosperity and he may be well positioned to have the support of Israel and Western nations, for example in creating a viable party to rule Gaza when government is re-established. Like Ahmad al-Sharaa, he strikes me as strong (and perhaps as brutal) to limit corruption. He is considered a traitor by his family, yet many Gazans do not support Hamas, and may support him. Would he be strong enough to withstand pressure from Iran, as Ahmed seems to be doing?
I am not convinced that Yousef abandoned land claims ("We Palestinians do not have anything concrete to support our existence as a nation" is a very strong statement)- but I belief that he might be dedicated enough to the cause of prosperity for the Palestinians, that he may accept Palestinian rule would only happen after his time (and perhaps groom a successor that would fight for it). It is just speculation- there are so many unknowns.
Meanwhile our side would remain with compassion with all sides.

 

[BartholomewB]

How has the UN or the international community benefited from supporitng Gaza? They have send millions, which Hamas has diverted to terrorist activities.

I don't suppose he means they have benefited financially. I think he's referring to Antonio Guterres and other prominent UN personalities who have been jumping on the "anti-Zionist" bandwagon in the hope it will make them more popular.

 

[BartholomewB]

On the question of his apparently contradictory statements in interviews, as I said, I had never heard of this guy until a few hours ago. He is said to have changed his view of the whole Israel-Palestine issue quite substantially since the October 7 attack. Maybe those are statements made "before" and "after"?

 

[Nanny1935]

On the question of his apparently contradictory statements in interviews, as I said, I had never heard of this guy until a few hours ago. He is said to have changed his view of the whole Israel-Palestine issue quite substantially since the October 7 attack. Maybe those are statements made "before" and "after"?

It is all new to me as well. I researched the sources, this is what I got:

The article by Shoebat is from 2011, he cites a TV interview from 2010 in the program "the Daring Question"- the video has since been removed:

The Mosab Yousef Saga: Did Hamas ‘Defector’ Dupe All of Us? - Walid Shoebat

By Walid Shoebat While a prisoner of Israel in 1996, Mosab Hassan Yousef — the son of Sheik Hassan Yousef, a founding member of Hamas — was approached by Shin Bet agents who looked to recruit him to spy within Hamas. He agreed. Mosab’s information soon had Shin Bet calling him “the most reliable...

shoebat.com

I attach the paper referenced in the wiki article as the source for Shoebat- The paper states that some Zionist Palestinian Christian who had found a sense of identity in the religion which replaced nationalistic identity, moved towards Liberation theology (Yousef being one such case)- see pages 444 (last paragraph) and 445:
"
In his interview with Al-Arabiya Mosab explains his theo-political position:
"During my tours in universities and even churches, [I found] the real support for Israel stems from the church in the West...
We need to understand the difference between 'revenge' and 'resistance’ and once the Palestinians do, we will have our victory against Israel... Israel is the problem and as an occupation it needs to end ... There are many ways to do this besides the coward explosive operation”
….
The popular voice for the Christian Zionist movement, Israel Today, argued that
Mosab's seeming conversion and betrayal of the Christian Zionist movement is part
of 'a growing trend among Evangelical Christians, both Palestinian and Western, to
adopt what has been termed "Palestinian Liberation Theology". This teaching is
actually Replacement Theology in a new guise, as it denies that modern Israel has
anything to do with the Bible or biblical prophecy'.Even Aaron Klein, the Middle
East correspondent for conservative news group WorldNetDaily, agrees that Mosab
is not a Christian Zionist, and certainly does not believe that modern Israel is a fulfilment
of biblical prophecy. He told Israel Today that 'Mosab believes in the leftist
line that Israel needs to withdraw from "occupied" lands