Holy Thursday: Washing of the feet

[HappDeeNess]

please point out where I was rude to you in previous comments, when I have not mentioned you by name, and was replying to the topic as a whole and not you specifically. And I did mention that it is possible your bishop may have permission from the Holy See to perform such duties by including women.

I’m saying, you need to have that permission. As it stands, the Holy See has not stated that it is now the “norm” to include women in the ritual. And as of recent documents by a few priests I have recently come across, they have stated he has not as of yet made that amendment either. Permission is given to some diocese based on need… however it is only extended to those diocese and any diocese allowing women to participate in the washing of the feet without express permission of the Holy See, is doing so against the church’s current teaching.

I go by what the Holy See says. he is the highest authority, and I can only hope my Bishop and my pastor will follow what he has stated to be. However, it seems to be common in America do just do, and not actually obtain that permission. I guess the Holy See isn’t as important to people as being PC.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

No, he is not an authority… but while trying to poke holes in his credentials, you are missing the actual point. It has nothing to do with what he says. It has nothing to do with what I say. It has nothing to do with what you believe or what the Bishops would prefer be the “norm”.

The main authority of the church is the Holy See.

A Bishop or the USCCB can desire anything they want. But just because they want it doesn’t mean they can give the order to go ahead and do it. The order must be granted approval by the Holy See… who has authority over them.

Or it must have a two-thirds vote of an episcopal conference… and even if it gets the two-thirds vote from the Bishops… it still needs to be approved by the Holy See before it is allowed to be implemented.

As of this time… I can’t find any evidence that the Holy See has made any changes since releasing the Paschalis Sollemnitatis which basically says, this is not simply an act of charity, otherwise he would not have demanded that it’s “proper” significance be explained. (Proper as in, it’s not simply about an act of charity.)

Mr. Voris is not the only one who has tried to explain this. Many priests and Bishops have taken to the internet in passed and previous years trying to explain… it’s not about what you want, or what he wants or what they want… it’s about the fact that they Holy See is the authority of the church, and the Holy See has not added any amendments allowing for women to sit as representatives of the apostles during the feet washing ceremony on Holy Thursday.

This isn’t what Mr. Voris believes… this is actually documented by the Paschalis Sollemnitatis released by the Holy See, that has not been changed to make for the allowance of women to have their feet washed on Holy Thursday.

Another priest made a valid point in response to an article. The actual washing of the feet is not mandatory. It is a special ritual that, if the “man only mandate” makes things difficult for the diocese, can be omitted. So if you’re not going to follow what the Holy See has set forth, which is that Men should be chosen to represent the apostles having their feet washed by Jesus during the Last Supper, then just omit that part of the ceremony.

You or I would not have access to all the documents. Going back and forth is just second guessing…

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

please point out where I was rude to you in previous comments, when I have not mentioned you by name, and was replying to the topic as a whole and not you specifically.

You quoted me and said “it’s not about how we FEEL”. And over all your tone was condescending towards me.

 

[HappDeeNess]

actually, I wasn’t quoting anyone or replying to anyone in general. I was replying to the topic in general… in fact, it was a cut and paste from another site with the same topic, and I felt it was relevant to state it here. The “Feel” quote was a general response to those who feel it is okay to include women in the ceremony despite what the ritual is about or what the Holy See has stated. It had nothing to do with you or any of your previous comments, which I actually didn’t read. I was just popping back into the forum with a general reply not aimed at anyone in particular.

Before you attack someone, maybe you should ask, “When you said *** were you talking to me?”

And by the way… it’s not always about how we “feel”. Religion isn’t about convenience, our feelings or being PC as a lot of people wish it could be. There is nothing condescending about the truth. And that’s the truth.

 

[HappDeeNess]

You or I would not have access to all the documents. Going back and forth is just second guessing…

there are many Bishops and Priests who would be in the know who have stated there is no actual decree by the Holy See that changes the Paschalis Sollemnitatis but for cases where permission has been granted to certain diocese. One priest, whose name escapes me, being 2am… (Happy Easter all) has stated no new changes has been made changing the Paschalis Sollemnitatis in recent years. There are no ‘secret’ allowances we don’t know about. Maybe that priest is wrong… maybe he’s been misinformed… but he’s not the only one who is stating this. this is a common theme among sites discussing this particular topic.

I am saying (In my opinion) it is wrong for women to represent the apostles who were men since a woman is not a man… (yeah, it’s not PC, but it is what it is. The apostles were men. God handpicked 12 men, no women. It is what it is, and since God is perfect, there is a reason for it.)

and (In my opinion) it is equally wrong to make the rite into something it is not… which is merely an “act of Charity”, which the Paschalis Sollemnitatis eludes to by saying it needs to be “properly” explained. Unless specifically changed by the Holy See. It is also wrong to be allowing women to have their feet washed, if special permission was not given by the Holy See to that diocese.

I understand issues like at my church where there is a dwindling number of parishioners and even less in way of willing volunteers… but you still have to go through the proper channels to obtain permission to change a ritual, rite or scripture teaching. I can only hope that those permissions have been given… but from what I’ve read from other priests on this topic, it does not always seem to be the case.

It may not be PC, it may not make people happy… but as far as I know… the Holy See still is the main authority of the Catholic Church across the world. If we don’t want to be “protestants” as you once said… we need to all be on the same page. And so far it seems no one really is. Everyone wants to ignore that there is no known change from the Holy See allowing for the inclusion of women except in specific cases.

This ritual is very old… and the inclusion of women and the idea that this is merely an act of charity and not actually a reenactment of Jesus with the 12 apostles, is fairly new within the last 30 years give or take.

So if we want to all be on the same page… we should follow the rules laid down by the Holy See, and if it causes a stir in a specific diocese where the Holy See has not given a special grant to allow women to have their feet washed, it is not a mandatory ritual that must be performed. It can be omitted all together.

And this is the last I am writing on this topic. It’s 2am, I’ve said all I can possibly say, Maybe I’m wrong, and if I am I am. There are my opinions based on my research. So there is nothing more to say about it except God Bless and Happy Easter.

 

[HappDeeNess]

but, once again…

The topic in which you referred to where you claim I was being “Snarky” to you, wasn’t aimed at you or anyone in general. I was popping back into the conversation with a response I had made on another site… via cut and paste. It was a general, “here are more of my thoughts” response aimed at the whole topic and not one specific reply to the topic.

I stand by my comment, I am sorry you were offended by something that wasn’t even aimed at you. that’s the most I can say. Had you asked if it were aimed at you before getting snarky with me… I could have explained it wasn’t. But it is what it is.

I am reading at Easter Mass tomorrow so I need to get to bed.

 

[celticcrusader]

you are right that M.Voris is not the final word and niether is the USCCB or your Bishop or Priest , The final word comes from the Holy Father Period … after watching the video it prompted me to research the document , that some of you said was not available, you are wrong it is available on the Vatican web site , it takes a little time to find it and it is in Latin , so maybe the USCCB figures ( most do not want to look or read or translate the Latin ) they will give the american catholic church thier translation The latin is pretty cut and dry the word used is MEN and Men only , do not believe me go look it up for yourself .Good job by M. Voris .

 

[triumphguy]

If the USCCB state it’s permissible then it is permissable in the US.

old.usccb.org/liturgy/q&a/general/feet.shtml

 

[celticcrusader]

If the USCCB has permission they have permission.

You are correct and if they lead the Faithful astray WOE to them at the Judgement… On the other hand if you find out they are mistaken should you keep quiet or be like John The Baptist a voice crying out in the wilderness ?? are you as much to blame for not saying something ?? I think something should be said , you do not have to listen that is your choice.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Less than year after the USCCB came out and stated that the washing of the feet is merely an act of charity and thus can include both men and women… the Vatican released the Paschalis Sollemnitatis which states:

“The washing of the feet of Chosen MEN, which, according to tradition, is performed on this day [Holy Thursday]. This should be a tradition that is maintained, and it’s proper significance explained.”

You seem to have selectively edited the quote in order to disparage the USCCB. The full quote from Paschalis Sollemnitatis is “51. The washing of the feet of chosen men which, according to tradition, is performed on this day, represents the service and charity of Christ, who came ‘not to be served, but to serve.’ This tradition should be maintained, and its proper significance explained.”

So its not just the USCCB that said the washing of feet represents charity, its the very Vatican document you are referencing.

 

[Dirt]

USCCB document:
usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/liturgical-resources/triduum/holy-thursday-mandatum.cfm

“4. Because the gospel of the mandatum read on Holy Thursday also depicts Jesus as the “Teacher and Lord” who humbly serves his disciples by performing this extraordinary gesture which goes beyond the laws of hospitality,2 the element of humble service has accentuated the celebration of the foot washing rite in the United States over the last decade or more. In this regard, it has become customary in many places to invite both men and women to be participants in this rite in recognition of the service that should be given by all the faithful to the Church and to the world. Thus, in the United States, a variation in the rite developed in which not only charity is signified but also humble service.”

“5. While this variation may differ from the rubric of the Sacramentary which mentions only men (“viri selecti”), it may nevertheless be said that the intention to emphasize service along with charity in the celebration of the rite is an understandable way of accentuating the evangelical command of the Lord, “who came to serve and not to be served,” that all members of the Church must serve one another in love.”

I do not see any reference to a “Permission” granted. I defer to my Bishop on this matter, and pray that what we are doing is in obedience with Holy Mother Church. That being said, so much of the Mass is being “interpreted” differently by so many Priests and Bishops today it is difficult for the average Pew Sitter to tell if they are getting the “Say the Red, Do the Black” or not! And unlike some here, although i offer my Obedience to my Bishop on Dogma and Faith, i will not follow a Bishop over a cliff of novelty! As we are witnessing these last days, there are bishops, then there are Bishops.

               Second Epistle Of Saint Paul To Timothy; Ch. 4

“[1] I charge thee, before God and Jesus Christ, who shall judge the living and the dead, by his coming, and his kingdom: [2] Preach the word: be instant in season, out of season: reprove, entreat, rebuke in all patience and doctrine. [3] For there shall be a time, when they will not endure sound doctrine; but, according to their own desires, they will heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears: [2 Timothy 4:3] [Latin] [4] And will indeed turn away their hearing from the truth, but will be turned unto fables. [5] But be thou vigilant, labour in all things, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill thy ministry. Be sober.”
scripture from drbo.org/index.htm

A Blessed Easter to All!!!
Pax

 

[celticcrusader]

I think Catholic Answers Fourms needs a like / dislike button like Face book:thumbsup:

 

[Patsy_Lou]

Hello again,
I have just returned from seeing a “woman’s foot”washed on Holy Thursday and heavenly days:thumbsup:, she had on green toenail polish! Hats off to Cardinal Timothy Dolan of New York who includes most of the members of the Roman Catholic Church in the Triduum!
May the good God bless all of us… for all the people of God… are the Church! And bless you who disagree with me…isn’t the Church wonderful!
Happy Easter------he is risen as he said!

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

actually, I wasn’t quoting anyone or replying to anyone in general. I was replying to the topic in general… in fact, it was a cut and paste from another site with the same topic, and I felt it was relevant to state it here. The “Feel” quote was a general response to those who feel it is okay to include women in the ceremony despite what the ritual is about or what the Holy See has stated. It had nothing to do with you or any of your previous comments, which I actually didn’t read. I was just popping back into the forum with a general reply not aimed at anyone in particular.

Before you attack someone, maybe you should ask, “When you said *** were you talking to me?”

And by the way… it’s not always about how we “feel”. Religion isn’t about convenience, our feelings or being PC as a lot of people wish it could be. There is nothing condescending about the truth. And that’s the truth.

And when I say I am listening to the authority of my priest, and Bishop, and USCCB …how exactly is that going by how I “feel”? Other then you feel that you disagree with it?

 

[HappDeeNess]

Okay, I had a very happy and blessed Easter and I hope you all did too, so I’m only going to make one more reply on this topic and then I’m letting it go and moving on to other topics.

1. Bishops and Pastors do NOT have the authority to change rites, rituals or scripture teachings without the express authority of the Holy See, period. Even if they get a 2/3’s vote… it still needs to be ratified by the Holy See before it can be put into practice.

The Holy See, very quickly responded in the 80’s the Bishops who stated that the washing of the feet was merely a representation of an act of Charity to which women could be involved. The Holy See released the Paschalis Sollemnitatis, which very clearly expresses…

51. The washing of the feet of chosen men which, according to tradition, is performed on this day, represents the service and charity of Christ, who came "not to be served, but to serve.[58] This tradition should be maintained, and its proper significance explained.

The Holy See was very clear on this, and the response was quick, which has to mean something. If this is merely an act of Charity, that women should be allowed to participate in, why the quick response with the P.S. and the specific use of the word “men” and phrase “Proper significance explained”?

Granted this was in the late 80’s, but The Holy See has not ratified the Paschalis Sollemnitatis to my knowledge. I’ve spoken to a few priests, to my Bishop and read many current articles online, and have found the opposite to be the case. The PS remains the same from what they have told me, when it comes to Holy Thursday.

As Catholics, our final word is the Holy See. Yes, we should all be on the same page. We shouldn’t be broken into different beliefs or we become protestants. So we need to be on the same page. The Holy See, through the P.S. has written that page for Holy Thursday. The Holy See is the authority of our church.

It isn’t like women are not important in the church. There are women saints, Mary the mother of Christ, Nuns, Women cantors (of which I am one), women readers (of which I am one), Women CCD teachers (of which I am one), Women communion administers, they’ve even allowed for women alter servers… Women catholic school educators, yet we can’t bend to this one tradition that the Holy See himself has not seen fit to change?

The Pope warned Bishops and Priests this Holy week about disobedience. This was in relation to Women priests and an end to celibacy… however it can go for anything that goes against the orders of the Holy See.

That’s all I have to say about this particular topic. So carry on as you will. I’ll be checking out other threads. God Bless everyone, even those who don’t agree, and happy Easter to those in a timezone where it is still Easter.

I will return one more time if I hear back from my Archbishop who I have contacted to see if I can get any clarity on the Holy See’s current stance, and see if any ratifications have been made that I am not aware of. If I get a response (which I may not since he is very busy) but IF I do, I will return with his statement.

 

[HappDeeNess]

And when I say I am listening to the authority of my priest, and Bishop, and USCCB …how exactly is that going by how I “feel”? Other then you feel that you disagree with it?

one last response…

again… the “feel” thing ISN’T AIMED AT YOU. (hard to believe, but I don’t always have you in mind for my whole response. Some parts may be in response, some parts may be in general. Perhaps I will find a clearer way to separate these two moments.)

It is a generalized statement which is why I stated “We” not “you” or “Annabelle”. I am saying that Religion is not about how we feel, as some people (not targeting you specifically) believe. People feel times are changing and the church should change with it. (Abortion rights, Gay rights, Sex outside of marriage, women priests, birth control) and I’m saying Religion is not about how we feel. if it were, faith would be easy cause we could just change it to meet our needs.

I stated this in my original post which you thought was aimed at you, despite the fact I just cut and pasted it from another website I posted it on… because I felt it was relivant here too, and it wasn’t in response to anyone in general, just adding my opinion to the nix.

You highlighted the specific “FEEL” part of my document as if it caused you some offense because you believed it was aimed at you.

I stated it was not aimed at you… but took the moment to once again clarify that religion is not what about what we “feel” it should be, it IS what it IS. it was, once again, not aimed at you. I wonder if you are hoping I am, solely because you don’t agree with my point of view and it gives you a reason to be curt with me. (Curt, Kurt, Kert, Cert…?) .

I am not trying to pick a fight with you. I am giving you my honest, heart felt opinions, with my personal reasons behind how I feel. I am not saying you have to agree with me, and if you don’t you’re wrong. I’ve admitted more than once I could be wrong, and I’m big enough to admit it if I’m proved to be.

And again, there is nothing wrong with listening to your Bishop, Priest or the USCCB as long as you remember they are NOT the final authority, and if your participating in an act they did not have permission from the Holy See to allow you to participate in… then you are participating in something that is wrong in the eyes of the church.

Again, I have said a million times, there are allowances, and if your diocese has that allowance, more power to you… but you continue to act like the buck stops at the Bishop and the USCCB and I’m simply saying it does not. Our head authority who they must answer to, is the Holy See.

 

[HappDeeNess]

I’m sorry Annabelle if you feel I am “picking on you” or “Being Rude to you” because that is not my intention. Just because we don’t agree doesn’t mean I want to dislike you or treat you poorly. My intention is to continue a healthy debate by hearing your arguments, and countering those arguments with my opinions on why I may or may not agree.

I am not saying I don’t like you because we don’t agree, nor am I saying you’re wrong. I have even said, more than once, if I’M wrong, when I see where I have gone wrong, I’m willing to admit it. And as I’ve stated more than once… it is quite possible your Bishop has the authority to make those changes with or without the Holy See. I was simply stating my counter opinion on the topic from what I understand from the research I’ve done. I am not stating anything bad about your Bishop. I am sure he is a good, faithful man. the Question of authority was not meant to be laced with disrespect. I even admitted, I could be wrong, and I understand there are exceptions that are made based on varying situations. I have also stated these are my opinions. Opinions are not meant to be facts… I am not a theologian, I am only going on what I’ve researched, I’ve discussed this with various priests who say I have the general right idea, so I’m running with it. If I am wrong, and it can be proven that I am… then I am willing to admit that wrong, and readjust my research and views.

obviously, not agreeing with you has made you think that I am attacking you by pointing out my counter opinions, so I am just going to step away from the topic from now on. While I have not done anything knowingly wrong, (as I’ve stated before… the things you think I’m addressing you specifically with, I actually am not… no snarky rudeness was intended in my comments.) I do apologize for the fact you feel that is what I am doing. Perhaps next topic we meet, I will make a better distinction between directed at you, and in general not directed at anyone specific responses. Sometimes my thoughts just run together and get mushed into one run on thought.

I do not wish there to be bad feelings between us. We just agree to disagree. God Bless you. You seem like an intelligent, strong person, and I hope we meet on better terms in the next topic we bump into each other.

 

[Annabelle_Marie]

I’m sorry Annabelle if you feel I am “picking on you” or “Being Rude to you” because that is not my intention. Just because we don’t agree doesn’t mean I want to dislike you or treat you poorly. My intention is to continue a healthy debate by hearing your arguments, and countering those arguments with my opinions on why I may or may not agree.

I am not saying I don’t like you because we don’t agree, nor am I saying you’re wrong. I have even said, more than once, if I’M wrong, when I see where I have gone wrong, I’m willing to admit it. And as I’ve stated more than once… it is quite possible your Bishop has the authority to make those changes with or without the Holy See. I was simply stating my counter opinion on the topic from what I understand from the research I’ve done. I am not stating anything bad about your Bishop. I am sure he is a good, faithful man. the Question of authority was not meant to be laced with disrespect. I even admitted, I could be wrong, and I understand there are exceptions that are made based on varying situations. I have also stated these are my opinions. Opinions are not meant to be facts… I am not a theologian, I am only going on what I’ve researched, I’ve discussed this with various priests who say I have the general right idea, so I’m running with it. If I am wrong, and it can be proven that I am… then I am willing to admit that wrong, and readjust my research and views.

obviously, not agreeing with you has made you think that I am attacking you by pointing out my counter opinions, so I am just going to step away from the topic from now on. While I have not done anything knowingly wrong, (as I’ve stated before… the things you think I’m addressing you specifically with, I actually am not… no snarky rudeness was intended in my comments.) I do apologize for the fact you feel that is what I am doing. Perhaps next topic we meet, I will make a better distinction between directed at you, and in general not directed at anyone specific responses. Sometimes my thoughts just run together and get mushed into one run on thought.

I do not wish there to be bad feelings between us. We just agree to disagree. God Bless you. You seem like an intelligent, strong person, and I hope we meet on better terms in the next topic we bump into each other.

Actually I was asking for clarification because that is what you said you wanted…no?

My point…and still my point is that we can not know everything and all the conversations that go on. Bishops are appointed for a reason-appointed by the Pope! It’s not like my Bishop is asking for something such as women’s ordination. He says that women’s feet washing is ok…and is back up by the USCCB. The Pope appoints these Bishops for a reason. To imply (and maybe not you but in general) that someone is NOT following the Church because they follow their Bishop is to ask them to disregard authority. If you go back and look at the quote of St. Francis to the laity about that in my post I think that agrees.

I have seen many people say…I don’t agree with the music, or this, or that…and use it as a reason to leave Mass early or etc. Even Holy Thursday Mass…to not go simply because women’s feet are being washed when the Bishops authority has spoken…is incomprehensible to me…this was the institution of the Holy Eucharist! Foot Washing is not THE main focus…it is about the Eucharist!

Honestly it just sounds like I and others are not following the Church because we trust our priest who is following the Bishop who is following the USCCB. I highly doubt that I have scandalized anything by having my foot washed by Fr. There was a pretty even mix that night. Having my foot washed is not making me a priest…seriously…and this is from someone who doesn’t even like women Protestant preachers…

Hope you had a blessed Easter!

 

[ConstantineTG]

What is the current status of the paragraph listed below given the recent changes in the mass? Should women be included or excluded from the washing? How about children not confirmed? Also, for what periods were clerics the ones who had their feet washed?

paragraph 51​

The washing of the feet of chosen men which, according to tradition, is performed on this day, represents the service and charity of Christ, who came not to be served, but to serve. This tradition should be maintained, and its proper significance explained.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWEASTR.HTM

Ours included women. I think a lot of focus has been on whose feet are being washed, than those who are washing the feet. The act speaks more about the commission of the one washing the feet following the example of Jesus. If we argue that “but Jesus washed the feet of the Apostles who were being ordained, therefore they should only be men,” then we should limit the washing of the feet to only clergy, minor orders and seminarians. Lay men shouldn’t be able to have their feet washed because they probably won’t be ordained like the Apostles (some of them might, but the likelihood is small).

Also we are a small church. If we don’t include women, there won’t be any feet to wash.

 

[lizaanne]

I just think it’s funny how so many people get their panties in a bunch over this. Just stop making the liturgy into the image of what YOU want, and keep the focus on Christ’s sacrifice, and what actually happened for real (it was a real live historical event, with real MEN you know) - and all will be well. There is absolutely no valid reason whatsoever to have women up there, with priests washing them - how horrifically inappropriate, and shocking that so many don’t get that.

The parsing and dissection of documents is really totally unnecessary. What happened FOR REAL on Holy Thursday? Christ washed the feet of MEN. Period. So why in the world would we ever do anything differently?

The world has gone crazy with this PC garbage nonsense.

~Liza