Holy Thursday: Washing of the feet

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I just think it’s funny how so many people get their panties in a bunch over this. Just stop making the liturgy into the image of what YOU want, and keep the focus on Christ’s sacrifice, and what actually happened for real (it was a real live historical event, with real MEN you know) - and all will be well. There is absolutely no valid reason whatsoever to have women up there, with priests washing them - how horrifically inappropriate, and shocking that so many don’t get that.

The parsing and dissection of documents is really totally unnecessary. What happened FOR REAL on Holy Thursday? Christ washed the feet of MEN. Period. So why in the world would we ever do anything differently?

The world has gone crazy with this PC garbage nonsense.

~Liza
To repeat what I said, the washing of feet is not about whose feet were washed, but who were washing them. Christ called on his Apostles to follow his example of being a servant to all. Its incidental that this happened when all the people in the room were men. The washing of the Apostles feet did nothing on them that is left exclusively for men. When bishops and priests wash the feet of people today on Holy Thursday, this is about them fulfilling the commandment of Christ for them who follow His ministry, and it has nothing to do with those who sit their having their feet washed.

Again, if we want to be literalists with what happened at the Last Supper, then we shouldn’t be washing the feet of men who are not ordained or are not seeking ordination because the Apostles weren’t just any men, but men called by Christ.
 
I just think it’s funny how so many people get their panties in a bunch over this. Just stop making the liturgy into the image of what YOU want, and keep the focus on Christ’s sacrifice, and what actually happened for real (it was a real live historical event, with real MEN you know) - and all will be well. There is absolutely no valid reason whatsoever to have women up there, with priests washing them - how horrifically inappropriate, and shocking that so many don’t get that.

The parsing and dissection of documents is really totally unnecessary. What happened FOR REAL on Holy Thursday? Christ washed the feet of MEN. Period. So why in the world would we ever do anything differently?

The world has gone crazy with this PC garbage nonsense.

~Liza
So when the Vatican talks about it being a symbol of Charity and not just a historical reinactment then that is hogwash?
 
To repeat what I said, the washing of feet is not about whose feet were washed, but who were washing them. Christ called on his Apostles to follow his example of being a servant to all. Its incidental that this happened when all the people in the room were men. The washing of the Apostles feet did nothing on them that is left exclusively for men. When bishops and priests wash the feet of people today on Holy Thursday, this is about them fulfilling the commandment of Christ for them who follow His ministry, and it has nothing to do with those who sit their having their feet washed.

Again, if we want to be literalists with what happened at the Last Supper, then we shouldn’t be washing the feet of men who are not ordained or are not seeking ordination because the Apostles weren’t just any men, but men called by Christ.
I mostly agree with what you’re saying. I think that the Vatican is just a little more conscious that some may be washing the feet of women as a kind of statement about women’s ordination or some such. So while the focus is indeed on imitation of Christ in charity and love, there’s still the issue that Jesus washed the feet of his apostles and the priest (representing Christ) is re-enacting the event. So while its true that we should be careful about being slaves to literalism (i.e. washing only seminarians feet) I think the Vatican is cautious about the manner in which the ritual could be theologically twisted.

And let’s face it, the Vatican doesn’t appear to be overly concerned about the washing the feet of women where practicalities seem to recommend it. In Dublin they washed the feet of a group of abuse victims that included women. And the practice on local levels has existed for a couple of decades now and outside of not allowing it to be “official” policy there has been no real attempt to eradicate the practice.
 
There is absolutely no valid reason whatsoever to have women up there, with priests washing them - how horrifically inappropriate, and shocking that so many don’t get that.
This is a great point. We are supposed to be imaging the actions of Jesus here, and Jesus was always so very concerned with maintaining social boundaries, with obeying society’s dictates about what is “appropriate” and “inappropriate,” with keeping his distance from women when the local culture would tsk-tsk him for speaking or having contact with them, and *especially *with never shocking anyone by his conduct.
 
To repeat what I said, the washing of feet is not about whose feet were washed, but who were washing them. Christ called on his Apostles to follow his example of being a servant to all. Its incidental that this happened when all the people in the room were men. The washing of the Apostles feet did nothing on them that is left exclusively for men. When bishops and priests wash the feet of people today on Holy Thursday, this is about them fulfilling the commandment of Christ for them who follow His ministry, and it has nothing to do with those who sit their having their feet washed.

Again, if we want to be literalists with what happened at the Last Supper, then we shouldn’t be washing the feet of men who are not ordained or are not seeking ordination because the Apostles weren’t just any men, but men called by Christ.
And we are part of the common priesthood of Christ.

-Tim-
 
This is a great point. We are supposed to be imaging the actions of Jesus here, and Jesus was always so very concerned with maintaining social boundaries, with obeying society’s dictates about what is “appropriate” and “inappropriate,” with keeping his distance from women when the local culture would tsk-tsk him for speaking or having contact with them, and *especially *with never shocking anyone by his conduct.
How do we then explain Jesus’ talking with the Samaritan woman at the well?

Jews had nothing to do with Samaritans. Jews would not have even gone into Samaria, but would have traveled to the East of the Jordan river so they would not have had to even enter their land. Not only that, but the woman was a harlot, a sinner with five husbands who was shacked up with a man to whom she was not married. People usually drew water from wells in the cool of the morning, but the woman came to the well at noon in the heat of the day - she was avoiding the other Samaritan women who knew she was a harlot.

Jesus not only talks with the woman whom the Samaritans themselves probably want nothing to do with, but stays as a guest in the Samarian village for two days. Eating with non-Jews would have been a scandal and would have left Jesus defiled and ritually impure. For a Jew to talk with, eat with and stay as a guest of Samaritans was unheard of.

The same is true of washing feet. What Jesus did in washing the disciples feet would have broken every rule of propriety in his time. In washing the disciples feet, Jesus was breaking social customs in a radical way.

Jesus was a rabbi. Rabbis have complete control over their students. To become a disciple of a rabbi was to give complete obedience to your master.

Jesus was also a king. Riding a donkey into the city was what Old Testament kings did when they were annointed. Jesus riding a donkey into Jerusalem amidst shouts of “Hosannah to the Son of David!” was not only the people’s acclamation of Jesus’ royal kingship but his acceptance of it. The magesty and authority of the king cannot be underestimated. Kings paid homage to no one.

The lowest and most worthless slave washed feet. Although big cities like Jerusalem had some form of sewage system, in most parts of the ancient world people simply threw human waste into ditches in the middle of the street. Livestock lived in close proximity to people as well and so there was the issue of dung. Remember that passover was approaching and there would have been tens of thousands of lambs in Jerusalem being inspected for sacrifice at passover. Every house would have had a lamb. Lamb dung would have been everywhere. Feet would have been filthy, to put it mildly, and the lowest and most worthless slaves, the ones who their master didn’t care if they lived or died, were given the job of washing feet.

So here is Jesus - Rabbi and King, Son of David - girding himself with nothing but a towel, assuming the place of the lowest and most worthless slave as he washes the feet of his students and royal subjects. Peter was indignant.

Peter said to him, “You will never wash my feet.” (John 13:8)

Jesus actions broke social customs in a radical way.

***When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, that she is a sinner.” *(Luke 7:39)

Jesus allowed a prostitute to touch him, and did it right in the living room of a Pharisee who had invited him to dinner!

Jesus touched lepers, and ate with tax collectors and sinners and the pharisees reviled him for it. I think social propriety was one of the least of Jesus’ concerns.

-Tim-
 
How do we then explain Jesus’ talking with the Samaritan woman at the well?

Jews had nothing to do with Samaritans. Jews would not have even gone into Samaria, but would have traveled to the East of the Jordan river so they would not have had to even enter their land. Not only that, but the woman was a harlot, a sinner with five husbands who was shacked up with a man to whom she was not married. People usually drew water from wells in the cool of the morning, but the woman came to the well at noon in the heat of the day - she was avoiding the other Samaritan women who knew she was a harlot.

Jesus not only talks with the woman whom the Samaritans themselves probably want nothing to do with, but stays as a guest in the Samarian village for two days. Eating with non-Jews would have been a scandal and would have left Jesus defiled and ritually impure. For a Jew to talk with, eat with and stay as a guest of Samaritans was unheard of.

The same is true of washing feet. What Jesus did in washing the disciples feet would have broken every rule of propriety in his time. In washing the disciples feet, Jesus was breaking social customs in a radical way.

Jesus was a rabbi. Rabbis have complete control over their students. To become a disciple of a rabbi was to give complete obedience to your master.

Jesus was also a king. Riding a donkey into the city was what Old Testament kings did when they were annointed. Jesus riding a donkey into Jerusalem amidst shouts of “Hosannah to the Son of David!” was not only the people’s acclamation of Jesus’ royal kingship but his acceptance of it. The magesty and authority of the king cannot be underestimated. Kings paid homage to no one.

The lowest and most worthless slave washed feet. Although big cities like Jerusalem had some form of sewage system, in most parts of the ancient world people simply threw human waste into ditches in the middle of the street. Livestock lived in close proximity to people as well and so there was the issue of dung. Remember that passover was approaching and there would have been tens of thousands of lambs in Jerusalem being inspected for sacrifice at passover. Every house would have had a lamb. Lamb dung would have been everywhere. Feet would have been filthy, to put it mildly, and the lowest and most worthless slaves, the ones who their master didn’t care if they lived or died, were given the job of washing feet.

So here is Jesus - Rabbi and King, Son of David - girding himself with nothing but a towel, assuming the place of the lowest and most worthless slave as he washes the feet of his students and royal subjects. Peter was indignant.

Peter said to him, “You will never wash my feet.” (John 13:8)

Jesus actions broke social customs in a radical way.

***When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who and what sort of woman this is who is touching him, that she is a sinner.” ***(Luke 7:39)

Jesus allowed a prostitute to touch him, and did it right in the living room of a Pharisee who had invited him to dinner!

Jesus touched lepers, and ate with tax collectors and sinners and the pharisees reviled him for it. I think social propriety was one of the least of Jesus’ concerns.

-Tim-
(I think Mark may have been sarcastic in his post).
 
And we are part of the common priesthood of Christ.

-Tim-
That is true. but we also recognize that most of the Last Supper discourse was directed to the Apostles in their role as Bishops.

We, as members of the common priesthood, cannot take the command “Do this in memory of me” to mean that we too are to attempt to confect the Eucharist.

It would be a mistake to claim that membership in the common priesthood automatiically qualifys us to participate in all that Christ did at the Last Supper.
 
To repeat what I said, the washing of feet is not about whose feet were washed, but who were washing them. Christ called on his Apostles to follow his example of being a servant to all. Its incidental that this happened when all the people in the room were men. The washing of the Apostles feet did nothing on them that is left exclusively for men. When bishops and priests wash the feet of people today on Holy Thursday, this is about them fulfilling the commandment of Christ for them who follow His ministry, and it has nothing to do with those who sit their having their feet washed.

Again, if we want to be literalists with what happened at the Last Supper, then we shouldn’t be washing the feet of men who are not ordained or are not seeking ordination because the Apostles weren’t just any men, but men called by Christ.
Why is it just “incidental” that Jesus washed 12 people’s feet at the Last Supper? Did He not know there would only be 12 men there? Did He not intend 12 men to be there? Had He hoped women and children would be there, but didn’t show up? Why didn’t He do this at another time, like when He healed someone, or taught the Beatitudes, or fed the multitudes? Did Jesus ever just do things for no particular reason? How do you arrive at this conclusion that it’s just incidental 12 men were there at the time when Jesus chose to wash feet?
 
And really this discussion is just part of the annual wasteful fight…do these discussions honestly lead to anything valuable?

There is those camps that see literally - some to the point of ignoring the service aspect that was even pointed out by the Vatican.

Then there are those that dont think it’s that big of deal that it includes women…especially when the act of service is emphasized…especially when their local authority the Bishop says it is ok…and backed by the USCCB.

Obviously the Vatican is not particularly concerned enough about it to have come down against it or dealt with it…especially recently…,and I highly doubt that it is because they don’t know.
 
I think people are also pulled into the belief that the washing of the feet is more important than it is. I’ve heard plenty to know that, for some people (not necessarily referring to be people in this thread), this is the central focus of Holy Thursday Mass. As the priest I work for said, some people would foam at the mouth if the washing of the feet were not done. But it’s not the focus and is an entirely optional thing. Maybe we ought to exercise that option and just get rid of it and end the debate. Or we could just quit looking for exceptions and go with men as Rome has stated.
 
Why is it just “incidental” that Jesus washed 12 people’s feet at the Last Supper?
Because by Jewish custom it was only the men at the supper table? If you read carefully what Jesus said about washing the feet, it was about service. Again, it was about who was washing the feet, not about whose feet are being washed.
Did He not know there would only be 12 men there? Did He not intend 12 men to be there? Had He hoped women and children would be there, but didn’t show up? Why didn’t He do this at another time, like when He healed someone, or taught the Beatitudes, or fed the multitudes? Did Jesus ever just do things for no particular reason? How do you arrive at this conclusion that it’s just incidental 12 men were there at the time when Jesus chose to wash feet?
Like I said, if we want to trivialize everything this way, then why aren’t the 12 men who we have their feet washed on Holy Thursday are those who are ordained or at least seeking ordination? The Apostles were ordained that night, shouldn’t it follow that its not just 12 men but 12 men being ordained?
 
I mostly agree with what you’re saying. I think that the Vatican is just a little more conscious that some may be washing the feet of women as a kind of statement about women’s ordination or some such. So while the focus is indeed on imitation of Christ in charity and love, there’s still the issue that Jesus washed the feet of his apostles and the priest (representing Christ) is re-enacting the event. So while its true that we should be careful about being slaves to literalism (i.e. washing only seminarians feet) I think the Vatican is cautious about the manner in which the ritual could be theologically twisted.

And let’s face it, the Vatican doesn’t appear to be overly concerned about the washing the feet of women where practicalities seem to recommend it. In Dublin they washed the feet of a group of abuse victims that included women. And the practice on local levels has existed for a couple of decades now and outside of not allowing it to be “official” policy there has been no real attempt to eradicate the practice.
I agree with your sentiments here Father that ultra-liberal groups can use this to further their agenda. Then again, what don’t they use to further their agenda? I think it would be nice if we can get 12 men for the sake for faithful reenactment. But the reasons given why it should all be men goes beyond faithful reenactment and I think its ridiculous and misses the point of the Washing of the Feet. In fact, if we want to nitpick, in the East only the Bishops wash the feet, priests do not wash the feet of whomever. Because Christ gave this commandment to the Apostles and the Bishops are the Apostolic Successors. Why is no one raising that issue in the Latin Church about priests washing the feet of others?
 
Yes, priests make a promises to a bishop, the bishop of rome that is. Here is a segment from such an oath.
In ordination, I promised obedience to my bishop and his successors. It is not an either/or, and the US bishops are hardly a radical group acting against the Pope’s leadership.
 
“In ordination, I promised obedience to my bishop and his successors. It is not an either/or, and the US bishops are hardly a radical group acting against the Pope’s leadership.”

And what if the US bishops are wrong on this particular point? The note interpreting “viri selecti” to include women was issued by ONE US bishop: the Chairman of the US Bishops Committee on the Liturgy, and it was issued in a NEWSLETTER. It has never been an official decree handed down by the US Bishops as a whole. No one voted on it, and no one even discussed it. It’s essentially a footnote of one bishop’s idiosyncratic interpretation.

Paschale Solemnitates, issued less than a year later, is an OFFICIAL document handed down by the Pontifical Congregation for Divine Worship, and it clearly restates the necessity of MEN for the footwashing:
  1. The washing of the feet of chosen men which, according to tradition, is performed on this day, represents the service and charity of Christ, who came "not to be served, but to serve.[58] This tradition should be maintained, and its proper significance explained.
The USCCB never trumps the Holy See. If the Holy See has granted the the US a special exception for the foot washing (it has not), then one must follow the Holy See’s directives.

It is a SHAME that the USCCB has confused the faithful on this point. They are very much to blame here.

Christine
 
“In ordination, I promised obedience to my bishop and his successors. It is not an either/or, and the US bishops are hardly a radical group acting against the Pope’s leadership.”

And what if the US bishops are wrong on this particular point? The note interpreting “viri selecti” to include women was issued by ONE US bishop: the Chairman of the US Bishops Committee on the Liturgy, and it was issued in a NEWSLETTER. It has never been an official decree handed down by the US Bishops as a whole. No one voted on it, and no one even discussed it. It’s essentially a footnote of one bishop’s idiosyncratic interpretation.

Paschale Solemnitates, issued less than a year later, is an OFFICIAL document handed down by the Pontifical Congregation for Divine Worship, and it clearly restates the necessity of MEN for the footwashing:

The USCCB never trumps the Holy See. If the Holy See has granted the the US a special exception for the foot washing (it has not), then one must follow the Holy See’s directives.

It is a SHAME that the USCCB has confused the faithful on this point. They are very much to blame here.

Christine
Any yet it has been on the USCCB’s website for how long? Hmmm…wonder if they know? Seriously I think we over fascinate on stuff like we know more sure… Wonder if the Vatican knows? Someone better send an urgent letter IMMEDIATELY!
 
Paschale Solemnitates, issued less than a year later, is an OFFICIAL document handed down by the Pontifical Congregation for Divine Worship, and it clearly restates the necessity of MEN for the footwashing:
  1. The washing of the feet of chosen men which, according to tradition, is performed on this day, represents the service and charity of Christ, who came "not to be served, but to serve.[58] This tradition should be maintained, and its proper significance explained.
Just to be clear, the “tradition” which is to be “maintained” is the tradition of the foot-washing. Moreover, since the Holy See has allowed at least one express derogation from the requirement that the subjects be men (to the Archdiocese of Boston, whose archbishop requested it for pastoral reasons), one ought not make to big a deal about the supposed importance of it.

Anyway, your ire is misplaced, since as I explained earlier in this thread (see, e.g., post #18) the USCCB’s statement does not, in fact give or purport to give permission to do anything but what the rubric states.
 
Just to be clear, the “tradition” which is to be “maintained” is the tradition of the foot-washing.
Sorry, Mark, but says who? Is this your personal interpretation? I see nothing in the footnotes or anywhere else in the Holy See’s document to support your claim.
Moreover, since the Holy See has allowed at least one express derogation from the requirement that the subjects be men (to the Archdiocese of Boston, whose archbishop requested it for pastoral reasons), one ought not make to big a deal about the supposed importance of it.
It was one exception granted specifically to the archdiocese of Boston. It was not an exception granted to every diocese in the United States, and the fact that bishops see fit to interpret it that way is very sloppy reasoning indeed.
Anyway, your ire is misplaced, since as I explained earlier in this thread (see, e.g., post #18) the USCCB’s statement does not, in fact give or purport to give permission to do anything but what the rubric states.
First, it’s not the “USCCB’s statement”; it is the idiosyncratic (and wrong) interpretation of ONE bishop, posted in a newsletter, of all things. To claim it is official USCCB policy to allow footwashing of females is to give the impression that all the bishops have discussed it at length and formally voted on it. Not the case.

Christine
 
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