Holy Trinity - tension with 10 Commandments?

[E.E.N.S]

msproule:

This may (or may not) be helpful. The Trinity has also been depicted as three interlocking circles, the overlap representing their unity and the outlying areas representing their distinction.
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I like this a lot!

 

[mlhd]

Checkout THIS website’s library Section God and Christ, The subsection the Divinity of Christ has the most biblical passages.

 

[canadianlife]

Being a human you will never understand until in a glorified state in heaven. My religion teacher told me a great story. A man, maybe it was St. Augustine, was walking along the beach trying to figure out the Trinity, which he couldn’t simply because he is a mortal human. While walking along this beach he came across a little boy. He was carrying a bucket, and would run fast down to the ocean, fill his bucket, and run back and try to fill a hole in the sand he had made. St. Augustine asked the kid, “What are you doing?” The Child replied, “I’m trying to get that ocean into this tiny hole.” Well thats kind of stupid thought Augustine, “Child, its ridiculous to think you could get that entire ocean into this tiny hole!”
“Exactly! So why would you try to understand something as mysterious as the Trinity, its impossible for you to comprehend!”
The child then disappeared…it was an angel.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings,

The Father loves all that he is and all that he does with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.

The Father loves Christ as he loves HIMSELF?
.
Christ loves the father as he loves HIMSELF?

To test the power of these words simply ask this question.

If the Fathers love for himself is perfect and complete, can he then love Christ MORE than he loves himself?

If the Trinity has anything to do with the law and the prophets of God, then it must hang and depend on the greatest commandments somehow.

Sciptires are there to inspire us to do something.

In the spirit of searching for greater relationships

Eric

 

[Didi]

Scott Hahn wrote a great book on the trinity “First Comes Love.” I strongly recommend it.

Someone mentioned Genesis. In Scott’s book he talks about the first reference to the Trinity in Genesis, Chapter 1, verse 26:

"Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness.”

He didn’t say My, but Our.

Throughout the Scriptures there are clear references for all three persons in the Holy Trinity, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 

[Mystophilus]

palmas85:

Actually sola scriptura refers to several things. One, if it is not in the Bible it didn’t happen. For instance, no mention made of the dinosaurs, they did not exist… No mention of the Immaculate Conception, it did not happen. No mention made of Peter being the first Pope, he wasn’t, etc etc.

It also refers to the belief that every word in the Bible must necessarily be 100% correct and accurate, or the whole thing must be false. Therefore the Bible is taken quite literally. This is a fairly radical position and not adhered to by many.

The above is certainly an interesting interpretation of the sola scriptura doctrine, but is not a terribly accurate representation of that doctrine as it is practised by most Protestants. In essence, sola scriptura is very simple: the Bible is the only source of absolute Truth. Thus, anything which is in the text is absolutely true, and anything which is not in the text is not absolutely true, but not necessarily false. On this basis, most Protestants believe in the existence of dinosaurs because the text does not deny their existence and other evidence supports their existence. Regarding the Immaculate Conception of Mary, the text does not deny it, but Protestants do not see that there is other evidence to support it against mere life experience.

They view the writings of the early Church as no more or less authoritative than your words or mine, and the pronouncements of any ecclesiastical authority as similarly fallible.

This tends to lead to a very literalist reading of the text, because the text becomes crucially (if you will forgive the pun) important, and so there is a natural desire to read the text in the simplest possible way. Most Protestants subsequently discover that a literalist reading becomes problematic, and so they adopt a mixed literalist-symbolist position, accepting some passages as literally true and others as allegorically true. Endless discussions ensue over which particular passages are the allegorical ones. Probably the strongest debate of this type revolves around the idea of female leadership in churches.

Another, is that all matters of faith are decided by the Bible and your PERSONAL interpretation of it. This is the big one that most followers of sola scriptura belief in and is the basis for most Protestant branches.

This is almost perfectly accurate. While most Protestants believe that they take the Bible as the highest source of authority over their own beliefs, it is actually their reading of the text which holds that position, and their reading is always personal interpretation. The exception occurs with the large number of Protestants who claim a sola scriptura position but place complete faith in another person’s (usually a famous preacher’s) reading of the text.****

 

[Mystophilus]

Golf_Nut:

One of the Ten Commandments states that there is only one God. But, the Church speaks of the trinity. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Can someone explain this apparent tension in layman’s terms?

“trinity” = “tri” + “unity”: 3 different, but all 1

This has long been a problem for mortal minds, and many descriptions of it have been wrought. What I would like to suggest is that you should step out of the problem for a moment, and consider something else.

Let us imagine that there is a being who is omnipotent, all-powerful. As a result of its omnipotence, this being is also omniscient, all-knowing (knowing is a form of doing). Because it is omniscient, it knows now what it will know in the future, what it will think, what it will feel, and what it will do. It lives that future now. It also lives the past now, and it always has done so. Thus, its time-frame folds together into one single, instantaneous, perpetual moment of everywhen.

Now, let us imagine another such omnipotent being in the same universe. Because both are omnipotent, both will have complete knowledge of the other’s mind. In fact, both will effectively live the other’s experience, through knowing it completely. They do not share a will: each has the capacity to choose its own way. However, being so very close, they do not even need to speak, because each is utterly aware of the yearnings of the other’s heart.
In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings (Romans 8:26.)
Add one more such being.

This, I think, is the Trinity. Each lives the experience of the others, and so they are united, but each has a separate will, and so there are three.

 

[Golf_Nut]

“trinity” = “tri” + “unity”: 3 different, but all 1

This has long been a problem for mortal minds, and many descriptions of it have been wrought. What I would like to suggest is that you should step out of the problem for a moment, and consider something else.

Let us imagine that there is a being who is omnipotent, all-powerful. As a result of its omnipotence, this being is also omniscient, all-knowing (knowing is a form of doing). Because it is omniscient, it knows now what it will know in the future, what it will think, what it will feel, and what it will do. It lives that future now. It also lives the past now, and it always has done so. Thus, its time-frame folds together into one single, instantaneous, perpetual moment of everywhen.

Now, let us imagine another such omnipotent being in the same universe. Because both are omnipotent, both will have complete knowledge of the other’s mind. In fact, both will effectively live the other’s experience, through knowing it completely. They do not share a will: each has the capacity to choose its own way. However, being so very close, they do not even need to speak, because each is utterly aware of the yearnings of the other’s heart.
In the same way, the Spirit too comes to the aid of our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit itself intercedes with inexpressible groanings (Romans 8:26.)
Add one more such being.

This, I think, is the Trinity. Each lives the experience of the others, and so they are united, but each has a separate will, and so there are three.

There cannot be two omnipotent entities. The Commandments are clear. THere is only one God.

 

[Northwind]

Here is an excerpt of a short paper I wrote a while back. I can offer a website with more on the Trinity than you would ever care to read. But, for now I hope this helps.

PART 1

1. A definition of the Trinity:

Within the sphere of the one God, there exists three persons;
Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Each is co-equal and co-eternal, sharing the same attributes, essence

and nature.

1. Scriptural references.

All are called God:

Father – Phil 1:2

Jesus- Col 2:9

Holy Spirit- Acts 5: 3-4

But there is only one God- Isa 43:10

All create:

Father- Isa 64:8

Jesus- Col 1:15-17

Holy Spirit- Job 33:4……cf 1Cor 12:3

But the first verse in the book of Genesis is……”In the beginning, God created……”

All resurrect:

The Father resurrects the Son- Rom 6:4

The Holy Spirit resurrects the Son- Rom 8:11

The Son resurrects Himself – John 2:19-21

But Acts 10:40 says “…God raised Him up the third day…”

The three persons are the one God.

There are over 700 verses from Genesis 1 through Rev 22 relating to the Trinity, so the verses given above are far from exhaustive. They are however given as pattern in scripture as to the personal attributes each possess.

Everyone knows of an analogy or two regarding the Trinity. As far as analogies go, they all break down at some point whenever we try to relate something finite to something infinite. So, all an analogy is meant to do is use an everyday object, tool or lesson to help us understand something which would otherwise be even that much more difficult to grasp. Of all the analogies I’ve seen e.g. eggs, the universe or even people; the one that most closely illustrates the Trinity (I believe) is water. And here is why….

There are a few direct parallels between water and the Godhead:

As a simple definition of water we could say that; there is one thing we call water, which is expressed or manifested in three ways. Water, in each form, shares the same nature and essence.

So, the first direct parallel is that water is made up of H2O, whether it is expressed as liquid, solid or vapor. Likewise, God is expressed three ways. But no matter which way, there is the same essence and nature and attributes. This parallel has to do with nature; water has the same nature expressed three ways as does God.

Another direct parallel is the fact that water is expressed three ways; liquid, solid and vapor. God is manifested three ways; Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Yet another parallel is that water, in whatever form it’s in, is separate and distinct from each other. Liquid H2O is different from solid H2O which is different from gaseous H2O, all the while having the same nature and essence. Each person in the Godhead is separate and distinct from each other. The Father isn’t the Son, who isn’t the Holy Spirit or any combination of the above. Each is distinct personalities, while sharing the same attributes, nature and essence.

 

[Mystophilus]

Golf_Nut:

There cannot be two omnipotent entities. The Commandments are clear. THere is only one God.

Why can there not be two omnipotent entities, or three? They are all one God.

 

[johnpaullover]

Golf_Nut:

One othe Ten Commandments states that there is only one God. But, the Church speaks of the trinity. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Can someone explain this apparent tension in layman’s terms?

thanks. I am really struggling with this issue.

No, no, and NO!!! There is only one God. He is, however three persons. This is beyond our reasoning and logic, but God is not logical.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings Golf_Nut

Golf_Nut:

There cannot be two omnipotent entities. The Commandments are clear. THere is only one God.

Scriptures are not an academic exercise for people to try and understand the technicalities about God, they are written to inspire people to do something.

There is only one God, but there is a need to search for meaning, when Christ says he is one with the Father.

Is Christ trying to inspire us to be as one with the Father? Is he trying to inspire us to be as one with our neighbour?

Or is there some other meaning?

In the spirit of searching for greater relationships

Eric

 

[Golf_Nut]

I think people’s answers to the question will depend upon how they interpret the Old Testament. For example, orthodox Jews and some Christians will interpret the Old Testament literally. In their view, the prophets who wrote the Old Testament were divinely inspired by God. Hence, the Old Testament is the word of God. It follows then that it must be true.

Some Christians and for that matter reform Jews also, take the view that the Old Testament is not to be interpreted literally. The prophets may have been divinely inspired but they, being men, might not have got it all right or they were speaking at times metaphorically.

Which view is correct? Even if the latter is correct, that is, the Old Testament is subject to a non-literal interpretation, there are nevertheless certain passages that can have no other interpretation (ie. there is only one God).

Then we have the New Testament and the apparent tensions on the nature of God.

The only way i can fathom this is i believe that the Old Testament speaks of the Messiah to come. The fulfilment of that prophecy is documented in the New Testament: the birth of Jesus. In such a situation God, the Father, is distinct from Jesus, His Son. They are not one. With respect to the Holy Spirit, I believe there is reference made to it in the Old Testament also. To my mind, it would be lesser than God, maybe an angel of some kind.

On the other hand, maybe the Old Testament and the New Testament are simply not entirely reconcilable. In which case, we can study the teachings of Jesus, what is written in the Old Testament and be a better person.

 

[TOME]

First, the best explanation for the Trinity I have read is our Pope’s work, “Introduction to Christianity”. Personally, I believe that this work should be Mandatory for all candidates in RCIA and all Catholics in general. Hopefully what I’m about to write doesn’t go against either the spirit of what Pope Benedict has written.

Belief in the Trinity, like belief in every aspect of our Catholic Faith is by nature a Faith Response and in the end, while this belief may pass the test of St Thomas and not unreasonable, it has to be accepted by faith. Especially when dealing with the topic that is so “Other”, namely God.

For those who are looking for an explicit reference or theology of the Trinity in the Bible non can be found. Also, it is apparent from the Sinai Covenant that a strict monotheism could be and should be the accepted norm.

However, in studying the Scriptures, especially through the writings and study of others, I accept the the teaching that our God as Triune is revealed in both the Old and New Testaments.
Through out the Old Testament, we see God’s activity clearly as Creator, Redeemer and Sanctifier. But this is not revealed in the sense as some would have that is just the One God at one time being Creator, another time Redeemer and still another time Sanctifier. For example in the first Chapters of Genesis we can find the activity of three distinct persons in the one Godhead (and I’m not refering to the verse where God refers to himself as “We”)

Again, this is not an explicit theology so it demands far more study than looking for individual verses to understand or “prove” a point, rather it means to study the whole text to understand the context in which the revelation is taking place.

But as I wrote above, in the end it has to be accepted on Faith because it is so beyond comprehension.

 

[Eric_Hyom]

Greetings,

I cannot understand how the church does not seem to have connected the greatest commandments with the Trinity.

The Father loves all that he is and all that he does with all his heart, soul, mind and strength.

The Father loves Christ as he loves HIMSELF?
.
Christ loves the father as he loves HIMSELF?

To test the power of these words simply ask this question.

If the Fathers love for himself is perfect and complete, can he then love Christ MORE than he loves himself?

In the spirit of dsearching for greater relationships

Eric

 

[John_Taylor]

Golf_Nut:

One of the Ten Commandments states that there is only one God. But, the Church speaks of the trinity. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Can someone explain this apparent tension in layman’s terms?

thanks. I am really struggling with this issue.

I’m sorry for your struggles…I pray your faith will be strengthened…we know from reason as well as from OT Revelation that there can be and there is only One God…from reason we can see how:

“Obviously there can be only one infinite being, only one God. If several were to exist, none of them would really be infinite, for, to have plurality of natures at all, each should have some perfection not possessed by the others.”

From The Catholic Encyclopedia: the Nature and Attributes of God newadvent.org/cathen/06612a.htm

and, as you point out, OT Revelation confirms that there is only One True God.

Then comes a man, Jesus of Nazereth, who does things only God could do: create something out of nothing (the multiplication of the loaves and fishes), change the essence of one thing into another (water into wine), raise the dead to life (Lazarus), and most definitively, raise himself from the dead as promised (His Resurrection).

It stands to reason that the person, Jesus, is God.

Then we have the NT record which speaks of God the Father and His Holy Spirit, who each do things only God can do and who each demonstrate the characteristics of “a person” (they each exhibit personality by way of emotions, rational intelligence and an active free will).

So the believer in Jesus Christ is faced with a mystery: how can three distinct “Persons” each be “the One God”?

Answer: The Trinity, which affirms “Three Persons in One God”…something which mankind through the use of reason could never have discerned about God without a Revelation from God Himself - but something which is clearly revealed in the New Testmanet record in that within its writings each: God the Father, the God-Man, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are distinct Persons who each do what only the One God can do.

When Jesus commissioned the Apostles to make disciples of all nations He told them to baptize "In the NAME (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit (three Persons) (Matthew 28:19-20)…in other words, by a singular AUTHORITY possessed by Three Persons.

There’s so much that can be argued from Scripture to demonstrate the truthfulness of the Doctrine of the Trinity…I hope your search will confirm this for you.

newadvent.org/cathen/15047a.htm

God Bless and
Keep the Faith
jmt