Holy Trinity

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Mikaele

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I find the concept of the Holy Trinity incredibly hard to grasp. How can 1+1+1= 1?

Also, does each Person have their own individual will? Or is it one will? And if the love between the Father and the Son produces the Holy Spirit, then does that make the Holy Spirit inferior to them?

And why do we call Jesus the Son? He doesn’t proceed from the Father in the same way a child would proceed from his parents. It’s so hard to understand. Sometimes modalism seems to make more sense.
 
Mikaele said:
I find the concept of the Holy Trinity incredibly hard to grasp. How can 1+1+1= 1?

Also, does each Person have their own individual will? Or is it one will? And if the love between the Father and the Son produces the Holy Spirit, then does that make the Holy Spirit inferior to them?

And why do we call Jesus the Son? He doesn’t proceed from the Father in the same way a child would proceed from his parents. It’s so hard to understand. Sometimes modalism seems to make more sense.
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The first thing I can tell you is not to equate the Trinity to 1+1+1=1, that is logically wrong, thus proving that it isn’t a model for the Trinity. This is about as much as I know about the Trinity, please, anyone more knowledgeable than me about this subject please correct me if I am wrong:

As God, each of the Three Divine Persons in the Trinity share a single will. Jesus, on the other hand, is said to have two wills which are in complete harmony with each other: a human and divine will. You are wrong in saying that the love, in any way, “produces” the Holy Spirit. I believe the consensus is that the Holy Spirit is the the Divine Love itself. The way my philosophy professor explains it is that there are Three Persons in God precisely because of the fact that God is love.

With love, there is the actual love itself, the lover, and the beloved. The lover is the Father, the beloved is the Son, and the love is the Holy Spirit. BUT, the lover/beloved relationship goes both ways, not just toward the Son. It is in this way that we can say that the Holy Spirit “proceeds from the Father and the Son”. This procession does not make the Holy Spirit inferior in any way by the simple fact that we believe, too, that the Son proceeds from the Father.

Jesus is called “the Son” because Scripture calls Him that, and that term describes His relationship to the Father, but it is true that the Son does proceed from the Father, that is what we, as Catholics believe and profess in the Creed (almost) every Sunday.

It would seem like Modalism makes sense in many cases, that is precisely why it gained popularity when it was first purported, but it cannot be true because of the simple fact that God is love which entails a Triune Godhead as I demonstrated above.

You are right that it is hard to understand, and no one can completely comprehend it, that is why we call it a “mystery.” I sincerely hope this helped you!
 
Three Divine persons in One God.

It’s interesting the number of arguments & heresies that developed througout the centuries defining Jesus and the Trinity.

I was just reading about the Early Church heresies in RCIA material.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH

240 Jesus revealed that God is Father in an unheard-of sense: he is Father not only in being Creator; he is eternally Father in relation to his only Son, who is eternally Son only in relation to his Father: "No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."64

241 For this reason the apostles confess Jesus to be the Word: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God”; as “the image of the invisible God”; as the “radiance of the glory of God and the very stamp of his nature”.65

242 Following this apostolic tradition, the Church confessed at the first ecumenical council at Nicaea (325) that the Son is “consubstantial” with the Father, that is, one only God with him.66 The second ecumenical council, held at Constantinople in 381, kept this expression in its formulation of the Nicene Creed and confessed “the only-begotten Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, light from light, true God from true God, begotten not made, consubstantial with the Father”.67

The Father and the Son revealed by the Spirit

243 Before his Passover, Jesus announced the sending of “another Paraclete” (Advocate), the Holy Spirit. At work since creation, having previously “spoken through the prophets”, the Spirit will now be with and in the disciples, to teach them and guide them “into all the truth”.68 The Holy Spirit is thus revealed as another divine person with Jesus and the Father.
 
mikaele said:
i find the concept of the holy trinity incredibly hard to grasp. How can 1+1+1= 1?

Welcome to the “faith” of the catholic faith. The trinity is beyond our ability to ‘know’. We grasp at human examples such as water can be a liquid, gas, and sold but the same water. That still is a weak human example. So “we walk in faith and not by light”.

Also, does each person have their own individual will? Or is it one will? And if the love between the father and the son produces the holy spirit, then does that make the holy spirit inferior to them?

Each will is separate and distinct. Otherwise we would be human ‘borg’s’ as depicted on the star trek series. All moving as one. We are designed to use our will to seek god, but there are those who will do otherwise, which is their choice.

And why do we call jesus the son? He doesn’t proceed frothe father in the same way a child would proceed from his parents. It’s so hard to understand. Sometimes modalism seems to make more sense.
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“this is my beloved son, in whom i am well pleased” which are the words of god at the time of jesus baptism. We do not know the “how” of jesus conception except it was by god. “and the shadow of the holy spirit will pass over you”. And like the trinity, we do not understand the “how” of - full man and full god - but we know god claimed jesus as his son. So we walk by faith and not by light.
 
If you find the Trinity hard to grasp then join the club! Hi Mikaele and just to let you know that many of the Saints also find this hard too! Listen we are not God. To explain it will mean that we are God and that is impossible. All we can do is refer to the references of Holy Scripture and to the writings of the Saints and to Holy Tradition. We need help! But Our Lord Jesus has given us the best possible help. So too the Holy Spirit. When I teach about the Holy Trinity I always refer to the Holy Family, Jesus, Mary, and Joseph. For the Holy Family is like the Trinity on earth. We can say for sure that the Holy Trinity is a family. A family of 3 Divine Persons. Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. We know that the most beautiful thing we can say about the Trinity is that they have 1 will among themselves. They just can’t go wrong! The Love between the Father and the Son is the Holy Spirit. However the other poster is right when he says this love does not produce the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has always existed and He is equal to the Father and the Son. There are no Persons within the Trinity that is greater than the other. They are all equal. There are dictinctions within the Trinity which explains their relationship to each other and we get most of that from Scripture and Revelation. Jesus does talk about the Father in terms that each Person is either begotten such as Jesus or proceeding such as the Holy Spirit and the Eastern Church has mentioned from Her Church Fathers and Saints to the Monarchy of the Father. However this Monarchy must be explained in terms of the Father’s role within the Trinity and His role in the Redemption of Mankind by the sending of His Son and the Holy Spirit. We must point out that Redemption is the work of the Holy Trinity and the Father sending His Son must always give first preference when we think of the Redemptive work of God. The Holy Trinity is therefore a Mystery. We can only get glimpses of the Holy Trinity that our feeble minds can grasp and understand. To understand fully the Trinity can never be done because only God can understand fully Himself. So God gives us glimpses and examples that we can relate to. The greatest gift He gave to us is to be loved by Him so that you possibly can return that love. When you have received maturity to return love for Love then you enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus when you have entered Heaven then you have entered into the very relationship of the Holy Trinity. This relationship will never end and eternal life begins. If you will like to look at a very beautiful Icon of the Trinity that will explain much please see the Icon of the Trinity done be St.Rublev of Russia. There is the essence of what the Saints were talking about and to what Jesus was teaching us. Each Person in the Icon is painted young and the same age. The figure on the left refers to the Father. The figure in the center is the Son. Look closely and you will see they are both young and the same age. The figure on the right is the Holy Spirit. The Father is sitting and His Feet rests on a tablet which represents the OT. The Holy Spirit who also is sitting has His Feet on a tablet which represents the New Convenant. Who makes this possible for the New Convenant is the central figure, Our Lord Jesus. He has His two fingers out representing His two natures. Divine and Human. Behind Him is a large tree which will represent His forthcoming Cross. There is a Chalice on the Table which represents the Life of the Trinity specifically the Eucharist of Our Lord. Below the Table is a square which represents the Entrance to this Life made available through the Church for all those who wish to enter into this Life. And what is this Life? The receiving of God Himself so as to guarentee your eternal life with Him. Thus the Icon explains the whole Mystery of Redemption. To explain the Trinity I always refer it as a family. Even our own families as much as is the Holy Family are examples of the Holy Trinity. The structure of the human race and the families it brought forth were images of the Holy Trinity. You ask though if God is 3 Persons why then not 3 Gods. We know from Tradition and Scripture that God is One but contained within Himself 3 Divine Persons. In the movie " The Reluctant Saint " the bishop asks St.Joseph about the Trinity. He was at a dinner when one of the monks spoke for over an hour explaining the Trinity. He then whispered to the Saint and said " now it is more a mystery than ever!! " St.Joseph was asked and later took his blanket and fold it 3 times. He explain to the bishop God is One like this blanket and he began to fold it 3 times to represent the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. Brilliant said the bishop just brilliant. There are many other examples such as St.Patrick taking up the 3 leaf clover to explain the Trinity. I hope this has helped. You have asked very good questions!
 
Mikaele said:
I find the concept of the Holy Trinity incredibly hard to grasp. How can 1+1+1= 1?

Also, does each Person have their own individual will? Or is it one will? And if the love between the Father and the Son produces the Holy Spirit, then does that make the Holy Spirit inferior to them?

And why do we call Jesus the Son? He doesn’t proceed from the Father in the same way a child would proceed from his parents. It’s so hard to understand. Sometimes modalism seems to make more sense.
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1 family

Many people.

For what it’s worth, hope it helps.
 
Thank you all for your help. But I just don’t see how 1+1+1= 3. They’re all 3 distinct persons, yet they make up one God? how can that be possible?
 
DavidKays said:
If you find the Trinity hard to grasp then join the club! Hi Mikaele and just to let you know that many of the Saints also find this hard too! Listen we are not God. To explain it will mean that we are God and that is impossible. … There are many other examples such as St.Patrick taking up the 3 leaf clover to explain the Trinity. I hope this has helped. You have asked very good questions!
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Hi David! Check this out: forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7063107&postcount=811
 
Mikaele said:
How can 3 distinct persons make up one being?
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When three persons function in perfect harmony with complete love and mutual trust, they will function like ONE being. Consider this example of a small family comprising the father, the mother and child:
  • The father is the head of the family and takes all decisions
  • The father is counseled by the mother who supplies him with accurate information needed for deciding. She also provides similar counsel to the child for executing the father’s decisions
  • The child executes the father’s decision exactly as the father wills and receives counsel if required from the mother
  • The father completely trusts the counsel given by the mother, never doubting her or seeking better advice* The mother supplies ONLY truth to the father and never colors it with her own views
  • The child’s only desire is to fulfill the father’s decisions without any deviation and does it in all sincerity and love
  • The father, the mother and the child love one another, trust one another; whatever they possess belongs to all three and whatever they do is just like that of ONE being
Also note the fact that any thing done by anyone has basically three elements: information, decision and implementation. So when we say something is done it includes three things: discern, decide and do.
 
You’ve probably heard this one from someone already, but it helps me accept/understand the Trinity:

Think of the Trinity as H2O:
-Water=The Father, the creator/sustainer of life
-Ice=The Son (Jesus), the tangible, physical embodiment
-Steam=Holy Spirit, it can surround you and be in you and part of you
It’s all H2O, but three distinct forms of it. No matter what form it takes, it’s all one thing.

“Three distinct persons” is not meant to be three human people. Having said that, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that another way to think of it, if you need it related to the human condition, is to assign the three parts to parts of ourselves:
-Body=Son (tangible)
-Mind=Father (directs,creates)
-Emotion/Personality=Holy Spirit (exists proceeding [as result of] the “body” and “mind”)
The parts make up one whole, but are very different in their own respects.

(I know this may be stretching it, but the explainations are a summary of what I’ve read on CAF, and are in no way a complete explaination of the three that make the Trinity. My sources:
Father ,"…who founded and formed all things…"
Son ,"…For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan…"
Holy Spirit ,"…proceeds “from the Father and the Son” or “from the Father through the Son.” ")

This is just an explaination as I understand it, so if anyone sees flaw in it please let me know without getting rude (since this is my honest understanding and not in any way an attempt at heresy if it is incorrect).
 
Being_Brave said:
You’ve probably heard this one from someone already, but it helps me accept/understand the Trinity:

Think of the Trinity as H2O:
-Water=The Father, the creator/sustainer of life
-Ice=The Son (Jesus), the tangible, physical embodiment
-Steam=Holy Spirit, it can surround you and be in you and part of you
It’s all H2O, but three distinct forms of it. No matter what form it takes, it’s all one thing.
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This sounds dangerously close to Modalism . . .
 
Pitcharan said:
Hi David! Check this ourl]http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7063107&postcount=811
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Hi Pitcharan! Thanks for the info. Once an author always an author. Good article. Just to let Mikaele know that Jesus was condemned because He equated Himelf as equal to the Father when He said " The Father and I are one." Now Jesus did not mean He is the Father. We see a glimpse of what Jesus is teaching about God. The Trinity is difficult to grasp so much so that Jesus was condemned for acknowledging Himself equal to the Father. To the Jewish authorities this was blasphamy. But in reality the truth about the Trinity is to be found in the OT. For instance we read in Genesis " Let us make man to our image " which is translated in plural form to indicate more than one which means God is talking to another Person within the Trinity. Then in a few verses later we read " God created man to his own image…he created him " which now sees a singular word which refers to the oneness of God. Another instance occurs in Genesis when 3 visitors come to see Abraham. The 3 visitors are the 3 Persons of the Trinity. Another instance in Genesis is when God destroys Sodom when we read " the Lord rained upon Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the Lord out of heaven. Again another reference of the Trinity. There are countless more references of the Trinity in the OT. The Lord will then reveal much more when Jesus came and taught. However the Jewish authorities already had in their minds who God is and Jesus was not going to change their minds. The Trinity will be difficult for some to accept but for others it will be easy. It will take Faith and time and patience and God knew that. He knew it will take time to reveal the mystery of the Trinity because that is the way God deals with us. So don’t be in a rush to understand it completely. As Pitcharan wrote in a post about St.Augustine try to take the Trinity by Faith and go on from there. Good to hear from you Pitcharan!
 
Mikaele said:
Thank you all for your help. But I just don’t see how 1+1+1= 3. They’re all 3 distinct persons, yet they make up one God? how can that be possible?
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As St. Thomas Aquinas teaches, there is no number in God, neither one nor three, as numbers exist only in material beings, and God is absolutely and infinitely spiritual or immaterial. God is absolutely simple, meaning He is not “one of a kind” of similar beings. He is technically not really three persons literally either in a material sense of “three of a kind”; rather, He is Father, and Son (a completely different Subject from the Father) and Holy Spirit (a Subject, absolutely different from the Father and/or the Son) in the absolutely Simple Divine Being of God.If we HAVE TO say Three in regard to subject because of our limited minds, it is to be taken analogously - not literally or materially - to mean Absolutely different Subject of the Origin Father, from the Begotten Son, and theHoly Spirit from the Father and the Son.

I strongly recommend that you read Frank Sheed’s Theology for Beginners; in a very readable style he gives an excellent presentation on the Nature of God and the Mystery of the Most Holy Trinity. Keep in mind that just because we cannot understand something completely - most especially the Most Holy Trinity! - that doesn’t make it false.
 
zach_dunn said:
This sounds dangerously close to Modalism . . .
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Modalism claims that one person plays three different roles so I see how it could be reworded to explain modalism.

FCGEM said,"…we HAVE TO say Three in regard to subject because of our limited minds…". Knowing that, “Trinity” or “Godhead” would be more of a collective word for the three distinct entities, so it makes sense to say the three parts of H2O are different from each other, having the collective name of “water”.

For example, we can see that melting ice sits in a puddle of water, steam might be seen around a piece of ice or hot water, etc. We can see them interacting together and affecting each other, but the three forms of it are easily distinguished from one another.

Not saying it’s the BEST answer, but some people understand the Trinity quicker when you show them an example they can actually touch and see.
 
Being_Brave said:
…, so it makes sense to say the three parts of H2O are different from each other, having the collective name of “water”.

For example, we can see that melting ice sits in a puddle of water, steam might be seen around a piece of ice or hot water, etc. We can see them interacting together and affecting each other, but the three forms of it are easily distinguished from one another…
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Ice can change into water and water can become steam and vice-versa. I don’t believe that to be true of the three persons of the HOLY TRINITY.
 
DavidKays said:
… To explain the Trinity I always refer it as a family. Even our own families as much as is the Holy Family are examples of the Holy Trinity. The structure of the human race and the families it brought forth were images of the Holy Trinity. …
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Hi David, thank you for that beautiful post. Here’s my attempt to give a complete and clear picture:

HOLY TRINITY EXPLAINED
Anything done by anyone has three basic elements:, viz., information, decision and implementation. Thus, whenever something is done, it comprises discerning, deciding and doing.

When three persons function in perfect harmony full of humility, love and mutual trust, they will function like ONE being.

Consider this example of a small family comprising the father, the mother and child:
  • The father is the head of the family and takes all decisions and has fully entrusted implementation of all his decisions to his child
  • The father is counseled by the mother who supplies him with accurate information needed for deciding. She also provides similar counsel to the child for executing the father’s decisions
  • The child executes the father’s decision exactly as willed by the father and receives from the mother, all counsel required.
  • The father and child, completely trust the counsel given by the mother, never doubting her or seeking better advice
  • The mother supplies ONLY truth to the father and child; she never colors it with her own views
  • The child’s only desire is to fulfill the father’s will without any deviation and does it in humble obedience full of sincerity and love and hence the outcome is always perfect
  • The father, the mother and the child love one another, trust one another and ALWAYS agree with one another; whatever they possess belongs to all three and whatever they do is just like that of ONE being.
The HOLY TRINITY comprises three persons in ONE GODHEAD and this is exactly how they function:
  • The Father wills and controls everything for good
  • The Son implements the Father’s will, be it creation, redemption or judgment
  • The Holy Spirit counsels the Father and whoever the Father chooses by discerning truth, exposing falsehood and convicting guilt
“… and the three agree as one” (1Jn 5:8)
 
Pitcharan said:
Ice can change into water and water can become steam and vice-versa. I don’t believe that to be true of the three persons of the HOLY TRINITY.
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Yep, me either. I didn’t use the example to describe modalism, even though it’s been pointed out that it can be reworded to do so, (by saying that they all turn into each other).

It’s just an example that can be seen with the eyes, since some people have trouble understanding with words alone. Ice is not steam, liquid water is not ice, steam is not liquid. Three separate things, with the common title of “water”. Just like the three separate beings, with the common title of “Trinity”.

Take issue with it if you want, but this particular example helped me understand when I was younger, and I’ve never had the impression that one person made up the Trinity. I sure didn’t mean to upset or confuse anyone, just trying to help.🤷
 
Mikaele said:
How can 3 distinct persons make up one being?
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The problem is that you presume that ‘being’ and ‘person’ are equivalent, though you don’t state it.

To phrase it better parabolically:

How can six squares be a cube?

A square and a cube are not the same thing, yet the cube does not exist separately from the squares.

So how do they differ?

The Father knows stuff that the Son and the Holy Ghost don’t, such as the time of His coming.

The Son has a personal will which differs from the Father’s. He did not want to die, hence the prayer to remove the cup. However, he submitted his will to that of the Father. This is prefigured by the bruised heel of the seed of the woman and withered thigh of Jacob.

Since the Son leaves the Father and Mother and cleaves to the bride, the separation between Father and Son which occurred at the cross was not fully restored in the resurrection. Though there is a reconciliation, there is something that remains separated. The reconciliation is foreshadowed by the parted water which was restored, but the split rock and the torn veil were not restored. Christ is eternally married to the flesh and to the church.

The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and was sent by the Son. The book of Jonah starts out: The Word of God (Christ) came to the dove (the Holy Spirit) … and tells the Holy Spirit’s role in the cross… how he was separated from the Son at the cross, was grieved and took comfort from the Son after the resurrection. Jesus sends him as “another Comforter” because the Son is the first comforter.

The story of the sons of Eli tells us that when anyone repents, the Holy Spirit wields the three prong flesh hook of the law and rips flesh from the side of Christ in His tribulation, whereupon Christ marries the flesh. It is the same picture of Adam’s rib where the church comes from the flesh of Jesus while he is dead.

Each of the “squares” or persons is different from each other, yet they are the same “cube”.

When we add a fourth dimension to space we get space-time. When we add another dimension to person-hood, we get a description of God.
 
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