holy wars?

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Rob_s_Wife

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Would you literally fight a Holy War for the Catholic Church?
I hear all this talk about jihads these days and it made me think… they do it to spread their faith or defend their faith.
I think we can all agree true conversion of souls doesn’t happen with guns, I hope, but what about defending our faith?
I’ll use the first Crusades as a loose example…
Islamic nations were taking over Catholic regions and refusing to allow christians in those areas to practice their faith. The Byzantine Emperor sends an urgent messenger to the Pope pleading for help against invasion. So the Pope of the time decided it was neccessary for the Catholics to literally fight to defend and/or reclaim the faith for those overtaken and to prevent the further spread.
Let’s say the U.S. of A. were in a situation where Islam (or another religion) were to become a governing force - would we, should we, fight a Holy War to stop it or prevent it? Would you be willing to become a soldier for Christ?
Ever curious…
 
I think I could see myself mowing down all the ************************** with an AK-47. Actually I think it would be cooler to be a sniper, though, or maybe a spy. Yeah, that’s it. I’d be a sniper-spy. Heh-heh-heh, they won’t know what hit them. I mean, it can’t be that much different from capture the flag, right? :rolleyes:

Seriously, though, if they came here threatening our freedom of religion, they would have to contend with my resistance in some fashion or another. I wouldn’t just sit back and take it, or pretend like a warm, fuzzy, conversation is going to iron out our differences.

Included with this post are prayers for all the women and men who live that reality every day. Thank you, brave soldiers in the armed forces.
 
I believe we are already fighting a defensive war, although not everyone agrees. I guess people just don’t want to think that such things could happen in this “enlightened” day and age. But, that’s what people thought before the start of both World Wars. This time we are fighting against a force that hides behind the innocent and doesn’t mind killing their own to get what they want, that attacks here and there instead of sending in armies. It’s more insidious and evil, IMHO.

And, fighting it is hard when many of our own people don’t understand what is really happening and think they will safe by pretending we don’t need to be involved in the Middle East. I hope we don’t have to see any more buildings hit or more innocent people die, but I’m afraid that hope isn’t held by our enemy who is plotting and planning to do the same and worse while a large portion of America buries its head in the sand of indifferentism and a fear of “racial profiling” over fear of terrorism. Sad, very sad indeed!
 
Della…
hmmm, I don’t know that I do agree with you, but I can certainly see that perspective. I don’t think I have my head in the sand though… I just don’t agree on many points…
BUT I don’t neccessarily want to debate the current situation…
**Even more to the point at hand… **
Would we send our sons to die just to protect our faith? If once again, the Pope raise the call to arms… would we, could we, should we answer it?
What if, we turned on the news and saw this headline:
"Vatican bombed! Pope pleads for christian nations and Catholics to unite and answer the call to fight!"
I wonder… how many of us would get in line? Honestly, I wonder if there would BE a line? How many would say, it’s only a bit of land - the Pope should just go to another place?
 
The best way to fight the Holy War is with our Rosary in hand! 👍
 
Rob_s_Wife said:
"Vatican bombed! Pope pleads for christian nations and Catholics to unite and answer the call to fight!"
I wonder… how many of us would get in line? Honestly, I wonder if there would BE a line? How many would say, it’s only a bit of land - the Pope should just go to another place?
Click to expand...
I don’t know… for some reason I just don’t expect that to be the response from the Vatican today… maybe years ago… but it doesn’t seem like a logical response in today’s Christianity…

“Call to fight” just doesn’t sound Christian to me… on some level… :confused:
 
Em_in_FL said:
I don’t know… for some reason I just don’t expect that to be the response from the Vatican today… maybe years ago… but it doesn’t seem like a logical response in today’s Christianity…

“Call to fight” just doesn’t sound Christian to me… on some level… :confused:
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… maybe “call to prayer” or “call to defend” sounds better…
The best way to fight the Holy War is with our Rosary in hand!
Click to expand...
Agreed!
 
Rob_s_Wife said:
Della…
hmmm, I don’t know that I do agree with you, but I can certainly see that perspective. I don’t think I have my head in the sand though… I just don’t agree on many points…
BUT I don’t neccessarily want to debate the current situation…
**Even more to the point at hand… **
Would we send our sons to die just to protect our faith? If once again, the Pope raise the call to arms… would we, could we, should we answer it?
What if, we turned on the news and saw this headline:
"Vatican bombed! Pope pleads for christian nations and Catholics to unite and answer the call to fight!"
I wonder… how many of us would get in line? Honestly, I wonder if there would BE a line? How many would say, it’s only a bit of land - the Pope should just go to another place?
Click to expand...
I understand what you are saying. But, the question always remains–how much is too much to endure? What if Catholics had banded together just before WWII to fight against Hitler? Not all taking to the streets with weapons in hand, perhaps, but at least in putting pressure on the German government? We are too passive IMHO. We ought to speak up and say we aren’t going to tolerate any group running over the world bombing and hijacking planes, etc., trying to make the rest of the world do what it wants. But we are paralyzed by fear, convention, and a lack of leadership from those who are also paralyzed and over-analyze things instead of doing something to stop the terror that is griping the world.
 
When it comes to war of any kind, I would apply the same principles I do with my country to my church. I am not just going to get behind something if I find upon investigation things werent just and righteous. So basically, if my church was guilt free of any double dealings, etc, yes I would. If it wasnt, no I would not
 
Della said:
This time we are fighting against a force that hides behind the innocent and doesn’t mind killing their own to get what they want, that attacks here and there instead of sending in armies. It’s more insidious and evil, IMHO.
Click to expand...
In a way, the nation’s response to the current war pretty much gives away the response to any call by anyone, be it the Pope or the Dhali Lama or whoever. In this day and age, no war is going to be popular no matter how just the cause. Too few people believe in objective truth and acknowledge that war is sometimes a necessary evil.

I wish, though, that any attack would be that overt. Then some of the fence sitters would forget about this diplomacy nonsense… until they forgot about it just like they forgot about WTC.

I must respectfully disagree with CathCentrist that only a guilt-free party may justly wage war. If sinners don’t have a right and responsibility to stand up for the truth, who will?

If, hypothetically, some radical Muslim assassinates the pope or otherwise infiltrates the Vatican forcefully in response to the pope’s recent remarks, I would not shy away from a call to arms because the remark ticked them off. Words are just words.
 
Em_in_FL said:
… maybe “call to prayer” or “call to defend” sounds better…

**Why? Because it requires no physical sacrifice? **
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Della said:
I understand what you are saying. But, the question always remains–how much is too much to endure? What if Catholics had banded together just before WWII to fight against Hitler? Not all taking to the streets with weapons in hand, perhaps, but at least in putting pressure on the German government? We are too passive IMHO.
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Yikes. Let us not forget many did do just that and were murdered for it. We have a few more saints in heaven because of that time period…
**But … aside from that… I would agree many people always think, “Oh it will never come to that, of it will never happen here, or or or” People are slow to accept that their neighbor counld be capable of horrible things. **
CathCentrist said:
When it comes to war of any kind, I would apply the same principles I do with my country to my church. I am not just going to get behind something if I find upon investigation things werent just and righteous. So basically, if my church was guilt free of any double dealings, etc, yes I would. If it wasnt, no I would not
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I don’t agree with that. None of us are ever guilt free. As children are told, 2 wrongs do not make a right. Also, keep in mind for many in the world the mere existance of the vatican is a wrong. Then there’s the simple issue of self-preservation. Taking my vatican example further, if you would fight for the vatican - what are you going to do when it’s your parish church? History has shown it would just be a matter of time.
vluvski said:
In a way, the nation’s response to the current war pretty much gives away the response to any call by anyone, be it the Pope or the Dhali Lama or whoever. In this day and age, no war is going to be popular no matter how just the cause. Too few people believe in objective truth and acknowledge that war is sometimes a necessary evil.

Well now I could just as easily point out the many reasons many people don’t trust anything the gov’t says is “truth”… but I don’t want to…
I will agree though that many people believe that everything is relative, which is just another way fo saying nothing is important.
I wish, though, that any attack would be that overt.

I agree it’s much easier to see evil when the devil is brazen. It’s when he hides in plain sight that we grow used to him and he does the most damage.
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vluvski said:
I wish, though, that any attack would be that overt. QUOTE]

But it IS that overt. The Islamists have vowed to “convert” the whole world to Islam (and we all know by what means they have always done that). Islamists have accused the Pope of something he did not do, and have demanded that he demean himself by agreeing to a lie and submitting himself to the superiority of Islam. Some have threatened his life.

What is NOT so obvious is the means by which we can actually combat this threat; simply because most of the West is almost entirely dominated politically by secular humanists who, I suppose, think they will convert Islam to secular humanism by the sheer force of their “rational” argument. Even in the Church, there are many “Blame America Firsters” and despisers of Western culture, and that causes confusion. But I will tell you one means of combat which we all do have. It sounds simple, but it isn’t. We can keep our minds clear of deceptions and equivocations, and then speak the truth without conceding to the relativistic habits of speech to which so many of have become accustomed. Some things are right, and we should say they are. Some things are wrong, and we should say that too.

It’s not much, maybe, but it’s the weapon we presently have at hand.
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Originally Posted by Em_in_FL
… maybe “call to prayer” or “call to defend” sounds better…
Click to expand...
Rob's Wife:
Why? Because it requires no physical sacrifice?
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No, I’d gladly give up my life for the Church and the faith…

I just don’t find it war and agression very Christian…

I know defensive war is just… but I can’t imagine the Church pushing for a “call to arms”… that just doesn’t feel loving to me, for some reason…
:confused:
 
Rob_s_Wife said:
Would you literally fight a Holy War for the Catholic Church?
I hear all this talk about jihads these days and it made me think… they do it to spread their faith or defend their faith.
I think we can all agree true conversion of souls doesn’t happen with guns, I hope, but what about defending our faith?
I’ll use the first Crusades as a loose example…
Islamic nations were taking over Catholic regions and refusing to allow christians in those areas to practice their faith. The Byzantine Emperor sends an urgent messenger to the Pope pleading for help against invasion. So the Pope of the time decided it was neccessary for the Catholics to literally fight to defend and/or reclaim the faith for those overtaken and to prevent the further spread.
Let’s say the U.S. of A. were in a situation where Islam (or another religion) were to become a governing force - would we, should we, fight a Holy War to stop it or prevent it? Would you be willing to become a soldier for Christ?
Ever curious…
Click to expand...
of course. It happened in the past and unfortunately it will happen again cuz that’s Islam’s plan. Be prepared to defend yourselves against dhimmitude. Christs’ children must not tolerate falsehood. In the middle east we are living it…don’t fall for their lies…learn from us and defend with all means.
 
I think another tactic of the “war” would be effective evangelization and catechesis. Let’s face it, in the past Catholics haven’t been so good at educating the faithful and the “missionary” approach seems to be on the back burner. Not saying there aren’t some effective evangelists out there for our faith or that there are no missionaries. On the contrary, we have many of our faithful who are doing just that. On the other hand, it seems like many Catholics do not know their own faith, and when a door to door missionary rings my bell he is not Catholic. We need to plug the leak in our Church and keep our members from leaving by educating them on just what our faith is (after all, it would be pretty hard to leave the Church if you really believe in the Eucharist and the authority of the Church). With regard to Islam, it seems to be growing and growing, in Europe especially. These people (in Europe) are not being forced to convert. They are being convinced but not usually threatened. We need to be more convincing.

I think this would be more effective than most means of Holy War. Oh, and pray, pray, pray for the conversion of sinners. However, if I was called to a Holy War by the Mother Church, I would fight for Her. I would pray for the strength be a martyr for Christ than a convert to any non-Christian religion.
 
Em_in_FL said:
I know defensive war is just… but I can’t imagine the Church pushing for a “call to arms”… that just doesn’t feel loving to me, for some reason…
:confused:
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Is it “loving” to just sit back and watch? Continuing my illustration, if the vatican were bombed or over-taken - should Catholics fight to get it back? I would think so? Even more so, I would like to think the Pope wouldn’t have to even ask this of Catholics - it would just be the natural reaction.
Prayer_Warrior said:
I think another tactic of the “war” would be effective evangelization and catechesis. Let’s face it, in the past Catholics haven’t been so good at educating the faithful and the “missionary” approach seems to be on the back burner.

**👍 Very true. I think in the past the church has been very good. I think too much political correctness is found in some cases. “Don’t preach the truth - it might offend someone to hear it” kind of blarney. **

We can keep our minds clear of deceptions and equivocations, and then speak the truth without conceding to the relativistic habits of speech to which so many of have become accustomed. Some things are right, and we should say they are. Some things are wrong, and we should say that too.

It’s not much, maybe, but it’s the weapon we presently have at hand.
👍 Actually, I think that is one of the most powerfull weapons there is for stregthening anyone’s faith.
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Ridgerunner said:
But it IS that overt. The Islamists have vowed to “convert” the whole world to Islam (and we all know by what means they have always done that). Islamists have accused the Pope of something he did not do, and have demanded that he demean himself by agreeing to a lie and submitting himself to the superiority of Islam. Some have threatened his life.
Click to expand...
Yes, their objective is overt, but the means is quite sneaky. They use what they like to portray as obvious logic to appeal to people’s rational sense, convincing the lukewarm of their philosophical superiority.
 
If changing a poopy diaper can be a form of prayer, then shooting a bad-guy can be too.

As I posted in another thread, honest to goodness, there have been times when I felt a sense of peace when I made a decision to fight for something.

The kind of peace Christ brought to the world was not the kind that Barney the Dinosaur brings. Christ brought a peace that you experience amidst war and chaos. Barney’s peace is destroyed by war and chaos, Christ’s peace outlives war and chaos.

Now, Rob’s Wife, can you somehow blend your imaginary scenario into the Just War principles? I would not join a war just because the Pope ordered us to do so, unless he said this as an ex-cathedra statement, binding all the faithful yadda-yadda. But if the order were only directed at the male 1/2 of the faithful I would suspect this order could be fallible.

If the pope made it clear the his plea for arms fit the just causes for war, I would join. Blasting people because they are muslim wouldn’t be just. Blasting people hell-bent on stopping me from worshipping God is a worthy cause.

Would you mind sending my wife a note that I should immediately increase the amount of practice time I spend at the shooting range? It sure would help if she could see this as more than a self-indulging hobby. 😃
 
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