holy wars?

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Exalt said:
If Christians do literally fight for thier faith, they should be fighting for the free rights of all people to practice thier religion or spirituality (or lack thereof). To fight for a purely Christian state is no better than Muslims fighting for a purely Muslim state.
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Whoa! I do not believe anyone here has advocated fighting to institute a Christian state. I have no issue with Muslims practicing their faith - unless it becomes their religion to stamp out christianity. THAT I will fight to prevent.
Neo_Canaan said:
War can’t give, nor save life, it can ONLY take it away.
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Those who are saved from the horror of the whims of tyrants would disagree with you.
Neo_Canaan said:
by the by, you sound like a woman’s sole function is to give birth, nuttin’ else. And that males were the stronger gender, that only males can make choices and fight as u call it.
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I didn’t get that impression from him.
Being a martyr for Christ is very different from standing back and letting others be murdered and conquered.
A martyr faces death for the sake of Christ, not out of fear to do what is neccessary to save another.
Neo_Canaan said:
I would rather use nonlethal and nonviolent methods to stop such shenanigans.
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Of course! No one is saying we should go on a rampage everytime we are insulted. But to call my example of a bombing of the vatican “shenanigans”?! Oh good grief. that’s an understandment if ever there was one.
 
Traditional_Ang said:
Neo:

Then you have decided to ignore the repeated testimony of Sacred Scripture and the Church Fathers, and you have decided to set your own opinion above the teaching of the Church, and you have decided that how you feel is more important than the lives of the innocent people the evil people you refuse to fight actually murder.

I remind you of the Clock Tower at Texas University. The only way the killing stopped and the lives of the people in the Quad below were saved was that a Dallas Police Officer went up the tower and killed the madman who was slaughtering the innocent people and those who were trying to rescue them in the quad below.

If your mind was made up, then why did you come to a thread where contrary evidence and logic would be presented that would demonstrate that you’ve not really thought this through or thought through the implications of your decision?

Your Brother in Christ, Mchael
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unless that officer repents, that person is hellbound.
 
Exalt said:
If Christians do literally fight for thier faith, they should be fighting for the free rights of all people to practice thier religion or spirituality (or lack thereof). To fight for a purely Christian state is no better than Muslims fighting for a purely Muslim state.

With that said, so often we forget the great Christian paradox: love your enemy. Turn the other cheek. Pray for those who persecute you. Christ calls us to not use violence, but show our love as a testiment to our strength and faith. I know, I know, it doesn’t make sense. Well, look at it this way, why didn’t the early Christians create an underground army and literally fight against Rome? They understood the power of this paradox. For Christians, to win is to fail. Christ’s salvation came through death. God’s glory came through a lowly man. It makes perfect sense in the light of this Great Paradox that we ought to lay down our weapons and open our arms.

At least, I don’t think Jesus would pick up an AK-47. He could have picked up a spear and killed the Romans trying to kill him, but he didn’t. He picked up his cross. And, I might remind you, he told us to do the same.

Peace… It’s so odd these days to actually think of it as including the absence of violence…
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Right said.👍
 
No. Self defense when/if the Church calls for it.
Finally, if I have the right to kill in self-defense (which I believe English law currently denies), I have the right to kill in defense of others. The state, therefore, has the right to wage war in defense of its constituents. Yes, I know that the death itself cannot be the goal in self-defense killing, but death is not the goal on a battlefield, either. Removing enemy combatants as a threat, by whatever means necessary, is.
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A secular earthly law, to appease that masses. That sound like the enemy is a child and the warmongers were her parents. And why all the male nouns in these killers? Women kill too.
But my belief stands, that war only taks life not saves it. So PLLLLLLLL on war. St. Paul wasn’t scared when his turn came.
 
If Christians had not stood up to fight, NONE of us would know Jesus today. :bigyikes: We would all be Muslim. Our own salvation may have been lost had not previous generations fought for Christianity. When I imagine my children or grandchildren bowing to Allah and not loving Jesus as their Savior, I know I need to stand up and defend Jesus.

The Catechism makes it clear that we are allowed to defend ourselves, but we have to be mindful of how we do it.

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.66

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
 
Prayer_Warrior said:
If Christians had not stood up to fight, NONE of us would know Jesus today. :bigyikes: We would all be Muslim. Our own salvation may have been lost had not previous generations fought for Christianity. When I imagine my children or grandchildren bowing to Allah and not loving Jesus as their Savior, I know I need to stand up and defend Jesus.

The Catechism makes it clear that we are allowed to defend ourselves, but we have to be mindful of how we do it.

2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one’s own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s.66

2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.
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What happens if it’s a woman in self defense?
 
I don’t understand? Are you saying that the quote from the Catechism doesn’t apply to a woman because it used the word “man”? A woman has the right to defend herself, the same as a man.

Why are you so angry? All I am saying is that the Catechism clearly points out that we are allowed to defend ourselves. If we are attacked by anyone (including radical islamists) we have the right to take defensive action.
 
Neo_Canaan said:
unless that officer repents, that person is hellbound.
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Neo:

The Officer saved dozens of Innocent lives. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Teaching of the Church throughout the ages, he is most definitey NOT hellbound.

If you can’t understand the difference between the mass-murderer and the person who has to take his life in order to stop the killing, then you don’t understand the Church’s teaching on this issue. If you refuse to see the difference, then you are intentionally blind, and I can’t help you.

I’m sorry to be so rough with you, but just in this case alone, you would first condemn dozens of people to death (many of them either of shock or by bleeding to death as no one would have been able to get to them) at the hands of a mass murderer, and then you would damn the man who saved them to hell.

In the case of the Holocaust, the number of people you would condemn to death and the horrific nature of the deaths themselves by your refusal to fight the evil mass-murderers absolutely boggles the mind.

Those who use volence to resist evil must account for their actions before God, but so do those who refuse to resist evil mass murderers because they refuse to reconsider ideas such as yours.

The Catholic Church has never believed or taught “Solo Scriptura”. The Catholic Church has taught that the Sacred Scriptures are a part of Divine Revelation and are to be treated as a Treasure and a Trust, not just thrown around as “Proof-Texts” as some Protestants do. The Catholic Church takes the WHOLE Bible and Tradition, which means that, as a Catholic, you have to try to accept the teaching of the Church on Self-Defense, along with the rest of the Church’s doctrines that you’ve accepted.

If you wish to keep your mind made up in spite of what the Church and ordinary experience and wisdom tell you, do so, but please don’t try to say this is consistant with the Teaching of the Church or the teaching of the WHOLE Bible on this issue.

Your Brother in Christ, Michael
 
No, NEVER. I have no children, and even so, I would NEVER want those that murder, get mudered, it’s a sign of revenge, and revenge NEVER brings back those you lost AT ALL. Two wrongs never make a right.
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You don’t get it do you?

Do you understand the difference between self-defense and revenge? If you can’t distinguish one from the other, there is no use participating in this thread.

Self-defense is taking action to prevent a murder that is certain to happen.

Revenge is taking action to pay back a transgression that has already happened.

Note that in my post, the hypothetical transgressors did not murder my children, rather they kept them and corrupted them. Any killing I would do would strictly be for the purpose of winning my children back (clue: they are not dead yet). This is not revenge.

Incidentally, do you profess to be Catholic? If you do, doesn’t it bother you to learn that the Church doesn’t really support your absolute view?
 
With that said, so often we forget the great Christian paradox: love your enemy.
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If I ever lose my mind, and am about to commit a sin as grave as murder, and if you have no other way to stop me, please, for the sake of my soul, kill me before I commit a mortal sin. It would be the loving thing for you to do.
 
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