Holy water- EF vs. OF

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fordhamstudent said:
Holy water is a reminder of our baptism and is not to be used in a superstitious manner. As we use holy water as a recollection of the sacrament of baptism and our baptismal covenant we are called by the Lord through its use to grow in holiness so that the evil one will not be able to lead us into temptation. The whole idea of water having more efficacy and “power” being blessed in the old rite verses the rite from the book of blessings is not founded in Church teaching, but actually comes from the politics between traditionalists verses the so-called Novus Ordo Church.

The efficacy of holy water comes from being blessed by a priest of whatever Church in communion with Rome, whether Eastern or Latin. When the priest blesses the water in the name of the Church he by his authority separates it for holy use and thus it is properly the “Church’s water” and thus when we are stewards of the water which belongs to the Church we are to use it as the Church instructs. If our lives our not holy, the water blessed by the Church, is not being used for the purpose the Church desires for it, namely, the sanctification of the People of God as they progress toward the universal call to holiness and our end in God.

The devil is more afraid of holy people than holy water and if unholy people use holy water for other uses other than to remind them of their baptismal covenant and the need to return to the Lord then the point is lost. Holy water blessed in the old rite and the new rite or any rite of the Catholic Church by a priest who represents the whole Church has the same purpose again to remind us of the wonderful joyous day of our baptism and the covenant we made or was made on our behalf as infants–the event of our baptism is what the devil fears most and the purity of clean water with the blessing of the whole Church reminds him that he can never approach the throne of God again and he can never be saved.
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^^^This. 👍
 
fordhamstudent said:
Holy water is a reminder of our baptism and is not to be used in a superstitious manner. As we use holy water as a recollection of the sacrament of baptism and our baptismal covenant we are called by the Lord through its use to grow in holiness so that the evil one will not be able to lead us into temptation. The whole idea of water having more efficacy and “power” being blessed in the old rite verses the rite from the book of blessings is not founded in Church teaching, but actually comes from the politics between traditionalists verses the so-called Novus Ordo Church.

The efficacy of holy water comes from being blessed by a priest of whatever Church in communion with Rome, whether Eastern or Latin. When the priest blesses the water in the name of the Church he by his authority separates it for holy use and thus it is properly the “Church’s water” and thus when we are stewards of the water which belongs to the Church we are to use it as the Church instructs. If our lives our not holy, the water blessed by the Church, is not being used for the purpose the Church desires for it, namely, the sanctification of the People of God as they progress toward the universal call to holiness and our end in God.

The devil is more afraid of holy people than holy water and if unholy people use holy water for other uses other than to remind them of their baptismal covenant and the need to return to the Lord then the point is lost. Holy water blessed in the old rite and the new rite or any rite of the Catholic Church by a priest who represents the whole Church has the same purpose again to remind us of the wonderful joyous day of our baptism and the covenant we made or was made on our behalf as infants–the event of our baptism is what the devil fears most and the purity of clean water with the blessing of the whole Church reminds him that he can never approach the throne of God again and he can never be saved.
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As Fr. Z asked, was there any good reason to change the blessing to what it is now?
 
The Church makes rites and suppresses them–this is in Her authority,since the Lord did not write liturgies or rites for the Church when He was in His public ministry or deliver to the Church written texts to be followed by the Apostles and then the bishops. It is the action of the Spirit in the Church to assist Her in developing rites, rubrics, and ceremonies for the Catholic religion. Now the Church has seen fit to allow both the old book and the newer book of blessings to be used by any Catholic priest of the Latin Church at his discretion as the faithful may ask for it. There are many conspiracies on the revision of the rites for blessings in the Church after the Council, but suffice it to say that the Church simply revised rites and at Her discretion may allow the use of older rites. What is fundamental is that the faithful receive the blessing of the Lord from His priests and leave it to Church historians to write up their analysis of the influences of the changes in rites after Vatican II.

One may also read countless texts on the methodology of reform of rites in the Latin Church after the Council, but what is fundamentally important is one allows the Lord to bless you and that is all. The Lord is trying to speak to us and if we shut him out because the rites are revised or the Mass is modern than we will miss the opportunity to enjoy what the Lord has given us and be truly thankful. There are some who have come to the Church and are drawn to the Eastern Catholic Churches, some are drawn to the Missal of Good Pope John others of Pope John Paul II, some desire older rites of blessing and some like the positive theological anthropology in the new book of blessings–whatever the case, the Lord is knocking at the door of our heart to invite him in and when we get stuck on mere externals we miss the Lord’s gracious invitation to have a relationship with Him.
 
fordhamstudent said:
The Church makes rites and suppresses them–this is in Her authority,since the Lord did not write liturgies or rites for the Church when He was in His public ministry or deliver to the Church written texts to be followed by the Apostles and then the bishops. It is the action of the Spirit in the Church to assist Her in developing rites, rubrics, and ceremonies for the Catholic religion. Now the Church has seen fit to allow both the old book and the newer book of blessings to be used by any Catholic priest of the Latin Church at his discretion as the faithful may ask for it. There are many conspiracies on the revision of the rites for blessings in the Church after the Council, but suffice it to say that the Church simply revised rites and at Her discretion may allow the use of older rites. What is fundamental is that the faithful receive the blessing of the Lord from His priests and leave it to Church historians to write up their analysis of the influences of the changes in rites after Vatican II.

One may also read countless texts on the methodology of reform of rites in the Latin Church after the Council, but what is fundamentally important is one allows the Lord to bless you and that is all. The Lord is trying to speak to us and if we shut him out because the rites are revised or the Mass is modern than we will miss the opportunity to enjoy what the Lord has given us and be truly thankful. There are some who have come to the Church and are drawn to the Eastern Catholic Churches, some are drawn to the Missal of Good Pope John others of Pope John Paul II, some desire older rites of blessing and some like the positive theological anthropology in the new book of blessings–whatever the case, the Lord is knocking at the door of our heart to invite him in and when we get stuck on mere externals we miss the Lord’s gracious invitation to have a relationship with Him.
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I’m quite grateful for the provisions in Pope Benedict’s Summorum Pontificum, allowing both new and old rites to coexist and also the freedom of allowing people to choose which they prefer. I suppose my question partly touches on the confusion that sometimes inevitably occurs when both rites coexist. For instance, at a parish where there is both EF and OF, how to bless the holy water? If there can’t be mixing of forms, then there should be some systematic way to prevent accidental mixing. I remember that when I have requested OF priests for the blessing of sacramentals in the EF the sacramentals were most likely sprinkled with OF holy water. Not that this makes the blessing invalid, but just an example of the mixing of forms. Perhaps a silly, insignificant detail, but nevertheless a confusion.
 
The acute preservation of both Uses in the Roman Rite, from cross pollination, is not on the same theological level as say the preservation of the Eastern Catholic liturgies from Latinization–which is mandated in Vatican II and subsequent legislation. For a priest who uses the Extraordinary Form to not use water blessed using the revised blessings, used in the Ordinary Use, for the Asperges, during his Mass, when he has not blessed water using the older rites–is to make an implicit statement that the water blessed in the Ordinary Use is either not holy water or it is not efficacious–which is not theologically correct and could be construed as a schismatic mentality. The non-distribution of Hosts, consecrated in the Ordinary Form, when the celebrant is in need of more Hosts to communicate the faithful, during his Mass celebrated in the Extraordinary Form, is making an implicit schismatic statement.

The Holy Father’s intent also in reviving the Missal of John XXIII is to make it a living Missal which may one day be brought together with that of the Missal of John Paul II. Ultimately, there can only be one Use in the Roman Rite and the Holy Father in making this concession in law for two Uses does not imply that His Holiness seeks to resurrect a dead Missal so that is may be set in stone, but rather that it might re-calibrate the revised rites for the sake of Church unity not only with the SSPX, but also the Eastern Orthodox who themselves have misunderstood and not related to the liturgical reforms in the aftermath of the Council.
 
fordhamstudent said:
–is to make an implicit statement that the water blessed in the Ordinary Use is either not holy water or it is not efficacious–which **is not theologically correct **…
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This settles it then.👍👍 We have holy water at home which is being blessed during the Holy Thursday mass. Had never given it a thought … a blessed water is a blessed water and it is holy. This thread seems to want to bring doubt on this and it is rather mischievous to say the least. Otherwise it will set a new dimension as to which holy water is holy and which is not. But more importantly, isn’t it our faith in believing it that is more important and that holy water like other sacramental articles are objects to enhance our faith?

Merry Christmas
 
michaelnrdx said:
I’m quite grateful for the provisions in Pope Benedict’s Summorum Pontificum, allowing both new and old rites to coexist and also the freedom of allowing people to choose which they prefer. I suppose my question partly touches on the confusion that sometimes inevitably occurs when both rites coexist. For instance, at a parish where there is both EF and OF, how to bless the holy water? If there can’t be mixing of forms, then there should be some systematic way to prevent accidental mixing. I remember that when I have requested OF priests for the blessing of sacramentals in the EF the sacramentals were most likely sprinkled with OF holy water. Not that this makes the blessing invalid, but just an example of the mixing of forms. Perhaps a silly, insignificant detail, but nevertheless a confusion.
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The “mixing of forms” applies to the mixing of elements into a single ritual or liturgy. For example, it would be wrong for a priest to say an OF Mass but add the final Gosple to the end. It does not mean that both OF and EF can not coexist in a given parish. Holy water is Holy water.

AFWIW, from your prior posts, it seems you are not Baptized yet. To worry about the “grade” of Holy Water at this point of your spiritual journey seems to be having your priorities a little mixed up. The main purposes of Holy Water is to remind us of our Baptism, which for you is yet to come and to impart grace, which will flow to you after your Baptism. To get hung up on Sacramentals before receiving the Sacraments of initiation can present the danger of superstition.
 
Corki said:
AFWIW, from your prior posts, it seems you are not Baptized yet. To worry about the “grade” of Holy Water at this point of your spiritual journey seems to be having your priorities a little mixed up. The main purposes of Holy Water is to remind us of our Baptism, which for you is yet to come and to impart grace, which will flow to you after your Baptism. To get hung up on Sacramentals before receiving the Sacraments of initiation can present the danger of superstition.
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Seriously. I don’t think “my holy water is better than your holy water” is quite what the Church had in mind.
 
agnes_therese said:
Seriously. I don’t think “my holy water is better than your holy water” is quite what the Church had in mind.
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Seriously, I don’t think “EF holy water is better than OF holy water” is what GOD has in mind for His Church.

We can do a lot better than this, folks. We have to, or we are in trouble for sure. Father Z’s opinions not withstanding.
 
CB_Catholic said:
Seriously, I don’t think “EF holy water is better than OF holy water” is what GOD has in mind for His Church.

We can do a lot better than this, folks. We have to, or we are in trouble for sure. Father Z’s opinions not withstanding.
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Sounds like a case of scruples in the making…😦 or, superstition that needs nipping in the bud…
 
Yes, sounds like someone needs to talk to a priest about scrupulosity.

As for the “watered down Holy Water” - I learned in RCIA that even one drop of Holy Water in regular water, makes the whole font Holy Water. Is this not true?

Also, please don’t drink the Holy Water! That is one thing we are all told. They don’t sterilize the fonts nor the big tanks (nor their spigots) taht some churches have.

And yes, not trusting a priest and insisting on witnessing the blessing of the water would be rude and disrespectful.
 
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