Holy Water

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Catholictrain said:
I guess the only thing left for us to do is to ask a priest who performs exorcisms which ‘brand’ of holy water is effective against the devil. If the exorcist tells us that he uses a different prayer to bless the water that he uses in the exorcism than the prayer that is used to bless the water sitting in the vestibule of my Catholic parish church, then I will be convinced. Otherwise, I will continue with my delusion that holy water is holy water is holy water. I’m stubborn that way. 😉
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Actually, stubborn is my middle name!

My point in the exorcism analogy was, regardless of whether a priest used the high octane Holy Water or low-sodium Holy Water , he wouldn’t perform an exorcism without asking for the devil to be exorcised or driven out of the person. We petition the Lord for what we desire - as Our Lord asked that we do. We ceased in our petition that Holy Water be a weapon to ward off the devil. Maybe the Lord rewards this arrogance, if perhaps He sees it that way, by not listening so intently to our petitions. You can’t deny that we have become a very self-centered and introspective lot in this century, especially regarding our devotion to Christ and His Mother. And the extreme to which society has strayed in its debauchery gives the impression that the Lord is leaving society to its own devices until He comes to “clean us up”, so to speak.

In the final analysis, of the course, the Lord will do what he will do but we can’t overlook the efficacy of sacramentals like the water that flows at Lourdes. Not holy water in that case, nor a talisman, nor magic, but certainly with a healing power for those of faith. But it takes the combination of faith and that particular water to effect the miracle that other water doesn’t accomplish. So Our Lord, in His mercy, appears to at least in this case, distinguish between the sacramental nature of this water and all other ‘holy’ water.

But our Roman Catholic faith is rich and beautiful in the many ways which Our Lord has provided us opportunities to obtain grace and fight Satan, who certainly seems to have the upper hand in most of the world.

I bet our Protestant friends love watching threads like this!
 
Just think of the threads we have seen.
My mass is better than your mass
My water is holier than yours.
My priest is better than yours.
This pope was better than that pope.
and on and on.
Kind of reminds me of the epistle of Paul wherein he confronts the early Christians. I am of Apollos. I am of James, etc. You ever get the feeling we are back there all over again.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
Just think of the threads we have seen.
My mass is better than your mass
My water is holier than yours.
My priest is better than yours.
This pope was better than that pope.
and on and on.
Kind of reminds me of the epistle of Paul wherein he confronts the early Christians. I am of Apollos. I am of James, etc. You ever get the feeling we are back there all over again.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Great points Deacon Ed!!!
 
Deacon_Ed_B said:
Just think of the threads we have seen.
My mass is better than your mass
My water is holier than yours.
My priest is better than yours.
This pope was better than that pope.
and on and on.
Kind of reminds me of the epistle of Paul wherein he confronts the early Christians. I am of Apollos. I am of James, etc. You ever get the feeling we are back there all over again.
Prayers & blessings
Deacon Ed B
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Heyyy!!!.. You forgot - “Our thread’s Deacon is better than your thread’s Deacon.”
:thumbsup:
 
Jsmith17 said:
I personally find the pre-Vatican II blessing of holy water to be much more beautiful than the post-Vatican II. It includes the exorcism of the water and of the salt and seems to be much more detailed. My questions are these:

Is holy water blessed using the older blessing “more powerful” than holy water blessed using the newer blessing?
and
Is the the holy water which is used at a TLM blessed using this method?
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A blessing is a blessing is a blessing.
👍
 
giuseppeTO, you bring up many of the points I myself was wondering…

Anyways, I’ve found a local FSSP parish which has holy water blessed with the older blessing readily available. I think this is where I’ll be getting my holy water from now on… call me superstitious all you want.
 
Jsmith17 said:
giuseppeTO, you bring up many of the points I myself was wondering…

Anyways, I’ve found a local FSSP parish which has holy water blessed with the older blessing readily available. I think this is where I’ll be getting my holy water from now on… call me superstitious all you want.
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Matthew 13:52

And Jesus said to them, “Therefore every scribe who has become a disciple of the kingdom of heaven is like a head of a household, who brings out of his treasure things new and old.”

There are personal choices available in this case, having a preference doesn’t necessarily make you superstitious.

I look at it this way: I have that same preference and I keep Holy Water blessed in that manner at home and in the car; but when I’m somewhere else where Holy Water is already available, like a Catholic church or chapel I never use my personal supply, I don’t think twice - I use their font the same way, right away.
 
Since sacramentals are always a confusing topic for me (since any treatment of them always seems to be so general) I thought I would check out the (old) Catholic Encyclopedia. I thought this part particularly relevant to the discussion about whether the older form’s (contestedly) greater explicit imprecations lead to a greater efficacy:

Besides the efficacy which the sacramentals possess in common with other good works they have a special efficacy of their own. If their whole value proceeded from the opus operantis, all external good works could be called sacramentals. **The special virtue recognized by the Church and experienced by Christians in the sacramentals should consist in the official prayers whereby we implore God to pour forth special graces on those who make use of the sacramentals. **These prayers move God to give graces which He would not otherwise give, and when not infallibly acceded to it is for reasons known to His Wisdom. God is aware of the measure in which He should bestow His gifts. All the sacramentals have not the same effect; this depends on the prayer of the Church which does not make use of the same urgency nor have recourse to the same Divine sources of merit. Some sacramentals derive no special efficacy from the prayer of the Church; such are those which are employed in worship, without a blessing, or even with a blessing which does not specify any particular fruit. This is the case with the blessing of vessels meant to contain the holy oils: “Give ear to our prayers, most merciful Father, and deign to bless and sanctify these purified vessels prepared for the use of the sacred ministry of Thy Church”. On the other hand, some sacramentals, among them one of those most frequently used, holy water, are the object of a benediction which details their particular effects.
newadvent.org/cathen/13292d.htm (emphasis mine)

This article seems to support the theory that “you get what you ask for,” or conversely “if you don’t ask, you just might not receive.” If the efficacy of a sacramental is indeed tied to the specific request made in the official prayers of the Church, then it would seem we could objectively judge which rite - taken in general, since they do not infallibly produce effects and God could also freely grant more than requested - ought to be more efficacious. Now, as AJV has begun, we could probably start to debate whether one phrase asks for the same thing as another, but that would not negate the general principle in question.
 
Somehow I am struck with the image of the priests and priestessws of ancient Rome who believed that if their prayers and rites were done “just so” the god had to act appropriately whether he or she desired to do so or not.

I am not denigrating either the old forms or the new forms whether words or rubrics. Just strikes me as total lack of faith in what Rome decides is appropriate at any given time in history. Like the mysteries of the Rosary. Are the Luminous Mysteries somehow less effective than the others? I don’t think so.

Yes , I think “juju” may be an appropriate appellation. 🤷
 
I have to say I have learned a lot from this thread. Earlier I posted that I couldn’t see how there could be a difference between one holy water and another… I really thought they were all the same. I have to admit, given some of the evidence posted here in this thread, that I have changed my mind. 😊 Now I have a new question… why did the prayers to bless holy water change? We need all the weapons we can get to fight the devil… why is the holy water now not blessed like in the old days?
 
I’m learning a lot from the thread too…just about 15 minutes ago I was forced to look up the word juju and it wasn’t in any of my dictionaries (Congrats @ rwoehmke ! : You’re making me work and you made me learn a new word…my mom would’ve been proud of you).

From American Heritage Dictionary
Juju is:
  1. An object used as a fetish, a charm, or an amulet in West Africa.
  2. The supernatural power ascribed to such an object.
  3. A style of Nigerian popular music featuring electric guitars and traditional drums.
From Wikipedia
Juju is an aura or other magical property, usually having to do with spirits or luck, which is bound to a specific object; it is also a term for the object. Juju also refers to the spirits and ghosts in West African lore as a general name. The object that contains the juju, or fetish, can be anything from an elephant’s head to an extinguisher.

One of the most popular juju objects in West Africa, for example, is a monkey’s hand. In general, juju can only be created by a witch doctor; few exceptions exist. Juju can be summoned by a witch doctor for several purposes. Good juju can cure ailments of mind and body; anything from fractured limbs to a headache can be corrected. Bad juju is used to exact revenge, soothe jealousy, and cause misfortune. Contrary to common belief, voodoo is not related to juju, despite the linguistic and spiritual similarities. Juju has acquired some karmic attributes in more recent times.

Good juju can stem from almost any good deed: saving a kitten, or returning a lost book. Bad juju can be spread just as easily. These ideas revolve around the luck and fortune portions of juju. The use of juju to describe an object usually involves small items worn or carried; these generally contain medicines produced by witch doctors.
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Now that I understand the word, I would hesitate to use it in this instance, because the implication here (although inadvertent and secondary) would be that priests are witch doctors…that’s pretty far from the objective here: Priests are meant to be configured to be as Christ and one with Christ.

@Catholictrain : I believe you may have just asked the million dollar question; …why did it change…?
 
btdn said:
That has to be the longest homily I’ve ever listened to. :eek:
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Probably wasn’t such a good idea to go so long when Father intended on blessing the cars in parking lot after Mass. 😉
 
NeedImprovement said:
I’m learning a lot from the thread too…just about 15 minutes ago I was forced to look up the word juju and it wasn’t in any of my dictionaries (Congrats @ rwoehmke ! : You’re making me work and you made me learn a new word…my mom would’ve been proud of you).

Now that I understand the word, I would hesitate to use it in this instance, because the implication here (although inadvertent and secondary) would be that priests are witch doctors…that’s pretty far from the objective here: Priests are meant to be configured to be as Christ and one with Christ.

@Catholictrain : I believe you may have just asked the million dollar question; …why did it change…?
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Hey wait … I asked that question in post #17!
 
giuseppeTO said:
Hey wait … I asked that question in post #17!
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He’s right…We owe giussepeTO one million dollars…he,in turn, can donate it to his favourite charity - Catholictrain.

(Sorry about the mixup fratello)
 
NeedImprovement said:
He’s right…We owe giussepeTO one million dollars…he,in turn, can donate it to his favourite charity - Catholictrain.

(Sorry about the mixup fratello)
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If I had a million dollars I would give it to my pastor to help rebuild our church (burned down in 2004). Sorry guys… alas I dont’ have a million.
 
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