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netmilsmom
Guest
The only way that I will send my kids there is to get an apartment and watch over them.
And we may well have paid tuition.
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And we may well have paid tuition.
A
anamchara
Guest
Cathsem, I haven’t even finished reading through this whole thread but God Bless you…there’s no doubt that group loves the Lord, profoundly.
I didn’t have a big problem with it, I figured it was taken out of context. I’m glad you came in the clear things up my friend.
L
Lux_et_veritas
Guest
Cathsem and VociMike: I was delighted with your civil and polite debate on issues. After an absence from these forums for a while, I must say it is refreshing to see details being discussed in a civil tone. Perhaps the best way to approach a thread is to simply ignore those posters who are taking shots, coming in under the radar, or just being obnoxious.
I hope the discussion can get back to it’s polite beginnings.
I would like to add something to your discussion, after having viewed this video.
First, I don’t doubt the deep faith of those present. As someone who once participated in somewhat similar liturgies (but not quite that far), I recall the innocence with which I engaged in such worship. In fact, I played in the band next to the altar of my old parish. I grew up with this style of worship (not charismatic, but somewhat free-flowing) and knew nothing else. But, once I got a taste of the liturgy in it’s most pure and solemn form, I could never go back. It would be very difficult for me to go out “into the deep” in such an active atmosphere. It is not conducive to the contemplative dimension of the Mass, which is what troubles me when I see such things. All of the physical contact, cheering, clapping makes the focus seem horizontally biased.
Something for thought I would like to offer on the issue of clapping. It is a partial response to a question by Cardinal Arinze (click here for full text and source) to the issue of liturgical dance, and he covered clapping, as well.
Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.
*
*
So all those that want to entertain us – after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don’t come to clap. We don’t come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.
It almost appeared that there was liturgical dancing, as well, but perhaps they did not see it as such. The streamers I would definitely associate with this.
I did find it odd that there was no film footage of the Eucharistic Prayer. I believe Cathsem when he says in describing the reverence of that part of the Mass.
I myself am beginning to have a problem with YouTube videos cropping up of segments from various Masses. This can result in a lynch-mob approach to handling liturgical issues.
Also, few people today, especially younger generations, have had an opportunity to experience a highly solemn Mass where it is stripped of anything which would take focus from God to neighbor or object during the Mass. Many are doing what they were taught and are naturally defending it. It is only through dialogue and education that we can all move forward. Taking jabs and making smart remarks towards each other only adds bricks to the wall.
Let a civil dialogue continue…
I hope the discussion can get back to it’s polite beginnings.
I would like to add something to your discussion, after having viewed this video.
First, I don’t doubt the deep faith of those present. As someone who once participated in somewhat similar liturgies (but not quite that far), I recall the innocence with which I engaged in such worship. In fact, I played in the band next to the altar of my old parish. I grew up with this style of worship (not charismatic, but somewhat free-flowing) and knew nothing else. But, once I got a taste of the liturgy in it’s most pure and solemn form, I could never go back. It would be very difficult for me to go out “into the deep” in such an active atmosphere. It is not conducive to the contemplative dimension of the Mass, which is what troubles me when I see such things. All of the physical contact, cheering, clapping makes the focus seem horizontally biased.
Something for thought I would like to offer on the issue of clapping. It is a partial response to a question by Cardinal Arinze (click here for full text and source) to the issue of liturgical dance, and he covered clapping, as well.
Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.
*
*
So all those that want to entertain us – after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don’t come to clap. We don’t come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.
It almost appeared that there was liturgical dancing, as well, but perhaps they did not see it as such. The streamers I would definitely associate with this.
I did find it odd that there was no film footage of the Eucharistic Prayer. I believe Cathsem when he says in describing the reverence of that part of the Mass.
I myself am beginning to have a problem with YouTube videos cropping up of segments from various Masses. This can result in a lynch-mob approach to handling liturgical issues.
Also, few people today, especially younger generations, have had an opportunity to experience a highly solemn Mass where it is stripped of anything which would take focus from God to neighbor or object during the Mass. Many are doing what they were taught and are naturally defending it. It is only through dialogue and education that we can all move forward. Taking jabs and making smart remarks towards each other only adds bricks to the wall.
Let a civil dialogue continue…
A
anamchara
Guest
Ya, I was actually enjoying the first exchanges with brother and cathsem, then all heck broke loseWithout a doubt, this is the most uncharitable bunch of antagonists I have encountered in many a day! Still criticizing after the young man patiently described the entire situation and background, yet you did not even read his words, or chose deliberately not to hear them. Reason has no place in a mind-set that is bent on fault-finding, now does it.
brother has always proved himself to be a charitable cradle. He gives traditionalists a nice name. I think he gets the whole how to be a Christian.
S
Strummer
Guest
Were the issue with “trads”, per se, you would have a point. However, what is being cited is the behavior of individuals. That they happen to be “trads” is inconsequential. Furthermore to hide behind that label of persecution demonstrates either a lack of awareness either by ignorance or by design.
You’ll note, perhaps, how brotherhrolf and Traditional Ang commuincate and how they are received. Then, maybe it will become clear that “traditionalism” is not the issue, behavior is.
I apologize for the momentary thread drift. And now, back you to your regularly scheduled discussion.
S
Strummer
Guest
Amen, amen and AMEN! I myself will try to learn from their example.
M
maria29
Guest
I am not sure what you mean? You’ve paid tution already?At least you will save money by getting an apartment! I highly agree that FUS is not for everyone…But I will say that again I have never seen a place where everyone truly loves God and loves the Church.
M
maria29
Guest
**If he does not want to study Theology, Philosophy or Nursing then I would recommend another University as well. I went there and majored in Communication Arts (which BTW is considered unimportant thereactaully he has done volunteer work in this country and over seas…no barns for mass though always in a Church
I have been to Guatemala out in the jungle areas and that is all they use
well theology is not the only reason he is going to College…if it was then I would reconsider
the lack of funds for the department was and still is appalling! THis is off topic but I highly recommend (and wish I had done so go to community college and the transfer ) so back on topicAs to the Charismatic aspect, perhaps I never had the true experience of having to live on campus. When I transfered there I was already over the age of 21 so that I was able to live off campus. I wasn’t involved in households.**
S
Strummer
Guest
Catholicism certainly is a big tent! Elsewhere here I’ve read a good number of posts decrying the “show business”-like display of some liturgical exercises by folks who claim to walk under a “traditionalist” banner. And now I see some others (or maybe the same, I don’t pay too much attention to names) who decry the lack of showiness of a building. Of course, some could argue that an ornate building is not necessarily “showy” but “dignified”…eh, “potato”/“potahtoe”. In either case, building or liturgy, if done right celebrate God and assist the congregation in worship. Items such as guitars and/or overhead projectors are helpful or distracting depending upon the individual. Personally, I’d like to get my nose out of the missal and have the words clearly displayed for me. That way I can take in the rest of my surroundings–the altar, the celebrant’s dignity, the tabernacle, etc.–during the “rests” in the music. But I also recognize the “echos of Protestantism” some may feel upon viewing such projections.
A
anamchara
Guest
V
VociMike
Guest
Thank you for sharing that. It looks idylic.
V
VociMike
Guest
I’m not surprised to hear that FUS becomes DNH (do not hire) at some dissident dioceses. But of course it is outrageous that graduates from one of the most orthodox Catholic universities in the country (see, I don’t have it in for FUS) are treated that way.
I suppose the biggest slap in the face is all those Catholic-in-name-only universities that have beautiful chapels. Oh well…
C
chicago
Guest
When Pope John Paul II made a pastoral visit on the east coast about a decade ago, one of the public Masses was held at a horse race track. Some questioned whether that was an appropriate place for such a thing as this. The response came, “What better place to have Mass; people are praying tere every day!”
In another case, a beautiful tree lined hill site in Israel was graded for a papal Mass as a practical way of facilitating the event. Some accused that, “They paved paradise
and put up a parking lot”. (I don’t know if the pope arrived there in a “big yellow taxi” or not).
The point is that you have to make due with what you’ve got under the circumstances. I think everyone here would agree that it might be desirable if Franciscan U could build a larger Church which would be wondeful in it’s glory and well serve their needs for facilitating major events. But until that happens they have to work with that which they have in those times when a large crowd WILL show up and has to be accomodated somehow as best as possible.
C
chicago
Guest
I only wish that I could find a youtube video of the famous Mass from the 70s in Washington, D.C. where some Ringling people showed up to perform. It would be really interesting to see Prince Paul running up and down the aisle!
M
Marian_Carroll
Guest
GENERAL NOTICE
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In other words, use discretion, good judgment and charity.
Thank you!
For those who missed an earlier moderator notice, I repost parts of it here as helpful to those who view videos:
1) It may be helpful to consider the following—
Videos are allowed and can be a valuable source to document facts and situations, but those viewing them should be aware that:
.videos are the work of individuals (generally anonymous) whose agenda and objectivity is generally unknown to the viewer,
.videos are not necessarily accompanied by verifiable documentation that the persons or places depicted are those named,
.the context of events depicted in a video may or may not be as described and the viewer is not always privy to sufficient information to have assurances in that regard,
.superimposed captioning in a video to replace a poor or absent audio track has inherent risks as regards accuracy.
2) Please do not glut the forum with a constant stream of videos.
3) Please do review:
Post 6 - Banned Topics
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=17511
Item 16. Identifying individual parishes or clergy (including hierarchy) as “unfaithful to the Magisterium”, guilty of “liturgical abuse”, or otherwise engaged in unacceptable or unpopular practices, based on personal “knowledge” or opinion without publicly available documentation that such has been alleged
Forum Rules:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=2
Item 4) Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
In other words, use discretion, good judgment and charity.
Thank you!
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
Brother Hroff:
Sounds very beautiful and like what we try to do at St. Mary’s.
I think you were confused about when they did the Batism and receptions - Cathsem said they did them at the proper Service, he Easter Vigil.
He also said he didn’t like the wafting bowls of incense or the streamers any more than the two of us but that he was giving those in authority the benefit of the doubt. Since the one who made the decision isn’t posting here, maybe allowing the subject to drop now that you’ve stated your peace would be the most charitable course of action.
Much of what you saw is common to the Charismatic movement. Many of these people will give you their last nickle - I was literally kept alive by some in the 1979-1981 after leaving USF.
If you go on EWTN or ewtn.com, You’ll find that they get a lot of their teaching from professors, brothers and priests at F.U.S… If you listen to the teaching, you’ll find it’s overwhelmingly orthodox.
And, They do convert people to the Faith and bring people back to the Church.
How’s the rebuilding going? Has the commute gone back to anywhere near normal?
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
D
Dee_Dee_King
Guest
in my opinion it’s pretty silly. i would be very uncomfortable with this liturgy. i think it might drive some men away.
if you like this stuff, why not just do this outside of mass and get as crazy as you want?
i just feel that the liturgy is not a product of our creativity or time, as well intentioned as it might be, but is something that we should cherish as handed down to us. the more the liturgy stays the same, the better. i like to think i’m worshiping as my ancestors did in europe 1000 years ago.
if you like this stuff, why not just do this outside of mass and get as crazy as you want?
i just feel that the liturgy is not a product of our creativity or time, as well intentioned as it might be, but is something that we should cherish as handed down to us. the more the liturgy stays the same, the better. i like to think i’m worshiping as my ancestors did in europe 1000 years ago.
T
Traditional_Ang
Guest
Veritas:
If you read Cathsem’s posts, you’ll see that he was defering or submitting to the authority that was over him.
I thought that’s what we wanted. Or are we saying that he should submit only when he is absolutely sure the authority is correct?
Your Brother in Christ, Michael
M
Marian_Carroll
Guest
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P
palmas85
Guest
Pretty sad, not the worst I’ve seen but pretty sad overall.
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