Homeschoolers forced into CCD for First Holy Eucharist

[EasterJoy]

So you think that the kids back in the “good old days” of the Baltimore Catechisms were super excited and intellectually stimulated by learning their catechism?

I learned out of the Baltimore Catechism, where we had to memorize all that stuff. Besides that, we had a sort of a vacation bible school for a week right after school let out, where we spent a week with the good sisters, doing crafts and being together and all of that '70s stuff. I could not tell you what any of the crafts were, except that I remember one with clouds on it.

The sisters were really nice, but it wasn’t memorizing the Mysteries of the Rosary that was boring. You’re in school, you want to learn something. Someone ought to let them know that we would want and need something more substantial. When I met good students at my Catholic high school who went to a local Catholic grade school but did not know what the Holy Days were, who didn’t know the Mysteries, who didn’t seem to have much of a factual foundation in the faith, I thought they’d been left behind. How can you feel confident in your faith when you don’t know anything substantial about it? How can you have an intellectually stimulating conversation without some really meaty ideas to chew on? What would you have to say?

Yes, learning out of Baltimore would be very tedious, unless the teacher put in some effort so that the kids want to get behind the effort involved. Still, being taught something you already know at a level far below what you know is what is truly boring. Even little kids find that insulting. Besides, it is exciting to have some measurable facts under your belt, actually, as long as you know the facts are important and have a use.

 

[Learning123]

There is quite a difference between asking a volunteer to help out for half an hour a week for four weeks, versus 15 hours just before the children are to receive the Sacrament - most volunteers are happy to do the first, but most of them work during the day and have families to care for, and wouldn’t be available for a 15-hour stint. Anything she can’t find volunteers for, she does herself.

If that is your program perhaps, but for those of us with 20 to 35 week program, an hour a week, perhaps we/they would much rather volunteer a few entire days/nights near the end of preparation than commit every Wednesday night of the school year.

 

[Brendan]

My original point, though, was that it shouldn’t cost more resources (whether volunteer or paid) to do a cancelled program than to do a program that is actually operational. It is more efficient in terms of manpower for one or two teachers to teach 45 kids than to have one adult or two adults teaching each kid, separately, and then having again more volunteers to do the interviews to make sure that each of the 45-90 adults was teaching the same basics.

It might be more time efficent, but that is not what the Church is saying, now is it?

 

[Brendan]

So you think that the kids back in the “good old days” of the Baltimore Catechisms were super excited and intellectually stimulated by learning their catechism?

Mine are

 

[jmcrae]

I was trying to say that what you described seemed reasonable.

I’m fine with requiring everybody to go to the same events, and it seems perfectly legal to me. If you can say, “Listen, the kids at the parish school learn all this in school, too, but that isn’t what this is about. This isn’t primarily an educational event, even though we cover some factual stuff. It isn’t primarily about how much your child knows, so nobody gets to test out of it. It is a parish event, where we all sit and talk about our faith together before making First Holy Communion together, and so everyone has to go to it. Your 2nd grader may have a PhD in theology, but she still gets to go, if she’s in our parish. The bishop has approved the requirement in just that form, so don’t call the chancery office. They won’t be able to help you.”

Actually, the person they would talk to at the chancery office was also the DRE at my parish, and he was the one who put this program together, to begin with - so they wouldn’t get very far, at all, especially if they started calling the designer of the program a “heretic.”

I am talking about parishes that require the whole 2 year RE sequence of everyone not in a parochial school.

I’m not sure how they get away with conflating Catechism classes with Sacramental Preparation, in the first place. They are two completely different things - they shouldn’t even be happening at the same time, and they certainly should not be being taught by the same teachers.

Put it this way. An unbaptized, non-Catholic child should be able to attend Catechism classes (RE), with there being no danger of him accidentally receiving a Sacrament, or inadvertently thinking that he has converted to become a Catholic, even if he has perfect attendance for the full term of the program.

Sacramental Preparation, on the other hand, is specifically for Catholic children whose parents would like for them to receive a particular Sacrament. The focus of the sessions is on the Sacrament itself, and unless it actually pertains to the meaning of the Sacrament they are studying, they wouldn’t get into any kind of Church history, etc.

 

[Middleman]

Mine are

Well yours are obviously superior and exalted. I was specifically directing my post at the person I quoted, who seemed to be claiming that modern CCD programs were too boring and unstimulating for children.

 

[jmcrae]

It might be more time efficent, but that is not what the Church is saying, now is it?

It was Pope Pius X who first came up with the idea of parish-based Sacramental Preparation programs in support of what the children were learning at home and at school, so I don’t think the Vatican has any problems with the idea.

 

[Brendan]

It was Pope Pius X who first came up with the idea of parish-based Sacramental Preparation programs in support of what the children were learning at home and at school, so I don’t think the Vatican has any problems with the idea.

Yep, it’s certainly great that such is developed and offered. and yet the Vatican still leaves it to the parents to determine if that is the correct route for their children.

 

[jmcrae]

Yep, it’s certainly great that such is developed and offered. and yet the Vatican still leaves it to the parents to determine if that is the correct route for their children.

Nobody is being “forced.” If you don’t sign up for it, who is to know that you even exist?

 

[PaulinVA]

You’re right you made no statement about the Church, you could not have since the Church does not support your point of view. You did say that you are “sick and tired” of people asserting their “rights” and making others accommodate them. Home schoolers are not making others “accommodate” them. Home schoolers are teaching their children the faith at home, as the Church prefers. It is those desiring mandatory CCD that are forcing individual parishes to “accommodate” them.

I think the Church is silent about my point of view, actually. Well, the church would say that I should be tolerant of others. But, the Church just granted rights. It was silent as to the usefulness of exercising those rights.

However, something is really skewed here. Parish-based religious education for non Catholic school children is not an accommodation to anyone. An accommodation based on what?

You have met every home schooler and are quite sure that they exclude all others? I am, to use your words, “sick and tired” of people making sweeping generalizations of all home schoolers based on the few they have met.

Actually, I was simply referring to the homeschoolers on this thread that want to exclude themselves from the life of the parish when it’s convenient for them. Yes, the Church allows it. It could put a burden on others (parish staff, priests) but they don’t seem to care as long as they get their rights. That is what I was referring to.

You say home schoolers are not discriminated against while going on to make negative assumptions about an entire group of people, not based on their merit but on your own bias. How do you define discrimination?

Well, I’ve been watching very carefully not to offend after I got into one of these threads when I first joined CAF. But, you know, assumptions are not discrimination. Thoughts are not discrimination. Discrimination is about exclusion. One group being excluded by another. What I see is a certain group excluding itself from the life of the parish.

 

[EasterJoy]

Actually, the person they would talk to at the chancery office was also the DRE at my parish, and he was the one who put this program together, to begin with - so they wouldn’t get very far, at all, especially if they started calling the designer of the program a “heretic.”

I’m not sure how they get away with conflating Catechism classes with Sacramental Preparation, in the first place. They are two completely different things - they shouldn’t even be happening at the same time, and they certainly should not be being taught by the same teachers.

Put it this way. An unbaptized, non-Catholic child should be able to attend Catechism classes (RE), with there being no danger of him accidentally receiving a Sacrament, or inadvertently thinking that he has converted to become a Catholic, even if he has perfect attendance for the full term of the program.

Sacramental Preparation, on the other hand, is specifically for Catholic children whose parents would like for them to receive a particular Sacrament. The focus of the sessions is on the Sacrament itself, and unless it actually pertains to the meaning of the Sacrament they are studying, they wouldn’t get into any kind of Church history, etc.

OK, I’ll bite.

a) Why should catechism and sacramental preparation certainly not be covered by the same teachers?

b) What on earth kind of program could accidentally forget to get a baptismal certificate before giving additional sacraments to anyone?

c) Are there really any programs small enough to take attendance but so large that the catechists can’t keep the Catholics and non-Catholics straight?

 

[bethndanny]

I think the Church is silent about my point of view, actually. Well, the church would say that I should be tolerant of others. But, the Church just granted rights. It was silent as to the usefulness of exercising those rights.

However, something is really skewed here. Parish-based religious education for non Catholic school children is not an accommodation to anyone. An accommodation based on what?

Actually, I was simply referring to the homeschoolers on this thread that want to exclude themselves from the life of the parish when it’s convenient for them. Yes, the Church allows it. It could put a burden on others (parish staff, priests) but they don’t seem to care as long as they get their rights. That is what I was referring to.

Well, I’ve been watching very carefully not to offend after I got into one of these threads when I first joined CAF. But, you know, assumptions are not discrimination. Thoughts are not discrimination. Discrimination is about exclusion. One group being excluded by another. What I see is a certain group excluding itself from the life of the parish.

But the Church is not silent on your point of view. The Church believes parents ought to teach their children the faith, and that a substitute is almost impossible to find. You disagree and feel that the CCD teachers are fine substitutes. The Church says it is not just our right as parents to teach the faith but our DUTY. It is not about a small group asserting their rights just to be burdens to others. It is about home schoolers fulfilling their duty as Catholic parents. I do not understand your point on home schoolers “burdening” parish staff and priests. The Church wants us to home educate our children! It is very clear. How are parents following the guidance of the Church burdens? I DO understand the frustration of a minority trumping the majority (really I do, and I actually agree with y our frustration, just not in this instance ). But home schoolers are not trying to ban CCD, they just want to be given the opportunity to follow the Church and teach their children the faith, as the Church asks of us. CCD is accommodating those who do not teach the faith at home. To be VERY clear here I am NOT in any way suggesting those on this thread who are advocating for CCD do not teach their children the faith at home. I feel very strongly that the majority of Catholics on here really are good Catholics trying to do their very best at being faithful to the Church. Which is, sorry to be going off on a sidebar a bit here, why I am so saddened to see the disapproval on this thread of those home educating for sacramental prep. I mean I just can’t imagine a Catholic home schooler who posts on this board NOT teaching the faith well. Do you understand what I am saying? I don’t know. Maybe that is why it bothers me so much. I really expected an outpouring of support for those parents home schooling their children in the faith, including sacramental prep, since it is quite likely that those here are well versed in the faith and would do a great job teaching their children. We all see on this board different liturgical abuses, poor catechisis, etc and these parents want to make sure their children don’t fall into that trap.

Home schoolers on this thread, or in real life, are not excluding themselves from the parish simply because they do not want to have their children in CCD. CCD is hardly the entire parish, goodness!

Discrimination does not have to be exclusion. Discrimination can simply be a prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment. You seem to have a prejudicial outlook of home schoolers.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

Father, did you read the dubium I posted just a little while ago?

It’s post 206

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5941294&postcount=206

I’d like to hear your response to the questions about it.

Brendan, if you want to know why many parishes and diocese ignore documents that come from Rome then this would be a reason why. Its a highly impractical application of the literal letter of the law and if everyone followed this then chaos would reign on the parish level. And if anyone thinks that they can simply present this document to their diocese and get their child confirmed earlier is living in a fantasy world. No diocese is going to follow this as a norm.

Like I said before, I can insist on my right to free speech but that doesn’t mean I necessarily should.

 

[Brendan]

Brendan, if you want to know why many parishes and diocese ignore documents that come from Rome then this would be a reason why. Its a highly impractical application of the literal letter of the law and if everyone followed this then chaos would reign on the parish level. And if anyone thinks that they can simply present this document to their diocese and get their child confirmed earlier is living in a fantasy world. No diocese is going to follow this as a norm.

Like I said before, I can insist on my right to free speech but that doesn’t mean I necessarily should.

Thank you Father, but my quesiton was in reqards to what exactly is the “Spirit of the Law” in Canon 890. You had addressed that earlier. That the homeschoolers have the letter of the law on their side, but not the spriit.

So given this responsorium, what exactly IS the spirit of the law.

This seems to be a great example of how the spirit should be viewed over the letter. The letter of the law, for example, allows the bishop to set a minium age for Confirmation. Or more specifically, for the local Synod to do so.

The USCCB, as you are well aware, submitted an age range and allowed the Ordinary set set a more specific one. This norm even recieved a recognitio from Rome.

So the letter of the law, in this case, was on the side of the bishop. But yet the CDWDS demonstrated how the SPIRIT of the Law should be enforced.

When we discuss the ‘spirit’ of a law, we are looking at what the legislator intended, what are they trying to get at or do. That is the case with this responsium. It gets to the heart of legislation around the Sacraments. And it basically boiles down to this, “don’t let rules and regulations get in the way of giving the faithful the Grace of the Sacraments. The default should be to give the Sacrament, even if it gets in the way of rules”

That was also the message of Christ, was it not.

And again Father, since the CDWDS is the legislator of the Canons on the Sacraments, how can we do anything onther than obey. Is obedience only for circumstances that are convienient for us?

You seems to want to demand obedience from homeschoolers in your parish, but yet don’t seem to want to practice yourself? I find that to be both sad and troubling.

 

[PaulinVA]

Which is, sorry to be going off on a sidebar a bit here, why I am so saddened to see the disapproval on this thread of those home educating for sacramental prep. I mean I just can’t imagine a Catholic home schooler who posts on this board NOT teaching the faith well. Do you understand what I am saying? I don’t know. Maybe that is why it bothers me so much. I really expected an outpouring of support for those parents home schooling their children in the faith, including sacramental prep, since it is quite likely that those here are well versed in the faith and would do a great job teaching their children. We all see on this board different liturgical abuses, poor catechisis, etc and these parents want to make sure their children don’t fall into that trap.

I am not talking about education. I agree that parents should educate their children in the faith. That means they have to educate themselves first, which is a really good idea. I have no problem with that. I am commenting on the fact that many a homeschool parent seems to be a serial nonconformist excluding themselves from everything because it’s not good enough for their child(ren). Even if you’re right, the overall effect is not positive.

Home schoolers on this thread, or in real life, are not excluding themselves from the parish simply because they do not want to have their children in CCD. CCD is hardly the entire parish, goodness!

In the instant case, yes, CCD is the topic of discussion. I share your frustration, actually, about the quality of RE instruction. I guess I’m reacting more to the overall tone of the conversation.

Discrimination does not have to be exclusion. Discrimination can simply be a prejudiced or prejudicial outlook, action, or treatment. You seem to have a prejudicial outlook of home schoolers.

No, I disagree. If I have a dim view of homeschoolers and I include them in everything and I am supportive and treat them fairly, have I discriminated against them? Absolutely NOT. But, your view is that taken by many “minorities” that feel “oppressed”. Not only do I have to treat you equally (only fair) but I also have to accept you or I am a bigot or discriminating. That is stacking the deck against yourself and fosters a bunker mentality.

 

[st_lucy]

I am very sad after reading through this whole thread. There are posters here who I thought very highly of before but have come to realize that they are no more than those flyby catholic bashers, just in the the home school basher form. HSers have pointed out time and time again, in fact for almost 19 pages, what HSers are not. We have given examples over and over again and even used the CCC to show you what it is we are doing. But just like those Catholic bashers who love to say “I know Catholics do …” these posters will continue to ignore all of this and only insert their own prejudice.

I will tell you that I do not cage up my children for all of society. They have many friends form all walks of life. I have taught CCD for well over 10 years and will only have my children there if they are in my class, whether that be as a student or my helper. I am answering the call God has given me, it has not been an easy call, but I will not walk away from that call. I am how ever very sad to see fellow Catholics, who will try to question my calling and mock what it is I am doing to for my Lord.

 

[leonie]

Well yours are obviously superior and exalted. I was specifically directing my post at the person I quoted, who seemed to be claiming that modern CCD programs were too boring and unstimulating for children.

That’s me!!

Except for my class when I taught ccd.

Seriously, I put alot of work and prayer into it. Several parents told me independently that their kids enjoyed and learned alot for the first time.

It’s true, though. CCD classes are notoriously ineffective and boring. And if you want to make it more interesting, you have to be very careful that the “fun” activity is a good use of your student’s time. After all you only get 1 hour a week with him. Every minute has to count.

And, don’t expect them to remember the lesson next week. So,count on spending a third of every class on review.

 

[leonie]

The best thing we can do for kids in catechism class is to educate their parents.

That’s why I like this model.

Did anyone look at the link.

familyformation.net/ForParishesHowItWorks.asp

Monthly Church Gatherings
•Families gather at church one time per month for 1 hour and 40 minutes.
•Students in Grades K-6 meet in classes, divided by grade level.
•Parents have a separate gathering where they are catechized, encouraged, and equipped. This adult catechesis component is key to the transmission of Faith in the home.
•Parents and students are learning about the same topic of Faith.
•Classroom catechists are provided complete curriculum, which is easy to use and engaging for the students. See a sample Classroom Lesson.
•Families are given a packet of weekly Home Lessons to use for the rest of the month, at home with their children. (The year begins with one Home Lesson in September.)
Weekly Family Home Lessons
•Enable parents to be the primary educators of their children in the Catholic Faith.
•Are easy-to-use.
•Take approximately one hour per week to complete.
•Include games, activities, booklets, and CDs to keep learning fun.
•Are designed for kids in Grades K-6. For information on curriculum for preschoolers (3-4 year olds), see additional curriculum.
•Bring the whole family together as they study each lesson and then apply it to their day-to-day family life. See a sample Home Lesson.
•Reinforce Sunday Mass— Family Formation lessons reflect the liturgical year and immerse families into the life and seasons of the Church.

Catechist Training and Preparation
•Classroom catechists meet one time per month for 2 hours in preparation for the monthly parish gathering.
•Using the Family Formation Catechist Training DVDs or a trained leader from your parish, catechists are presented the adult formation topic for the next monthly parish gathering.
•Catechists are trained to present the classroom curriculum materials

 

[leonie]

btw, when our youth director started a middle school youth group, guess what?

Five kids showed up and four were homeschooled.

When our youth director asked the high schoolers to go pray at the Abortion clinic, six kids showed up and all were homeschooled.

Everyone in our parish knows who homeschools because we show up for all the parish functions!!! We are sooooooo involved in our parish. In fact, for our family parish and faith formation activities come before sports and secular activities.

We do not exempt ourselves from our parish.

 

[st_lucy]

The best thing we can do for kids in catechism class is to educate their parents.

That’s why I like this model.

Did anyone look at the link.

familyformation.net/ForParishesHowItWorks.asp

This program comes from a parish who has a HUGE homeschool community. I love this church and I love their Faith formation programs. This one in particular since they really put the family back into faith formation. We learned so much from this program. While the kids where in class the parents where also in class learning about what they had to teach their children for the month.