Homeschoolers forced into CCD for First Holy Eucharist

[CDNowak]

Yes and no. You seem to be under the impression that bishops, priests, and numerous diocese have been just making up programs and guidelines for no apparent reason. There’s a rhyme and reason to why things are done the way they are. While there’s always room for improvement that doesn’t mean we need to blow up the whole system.

And BTW, while I’m sure you both think that your plan is brilliant, I’m sure each of the 1800 families of my parish each have their own brilliant plan as to how they would run things if they could.

I’m not so sure about that.

This is what you don’t seem to understand. You want a world where everyone thinks exactly like you do, the world doesn’t work like that. The idea of a pass/fail test to receive a sacrament is fraught with issues and problems that you can’t even imagine.

The problem is that not everyone wants to cooperate with the bishop or diocese.

You’re only seeing what you want to see. I did not deride HS’ers as a group. I was pointing out was the even public school kids technically have the right to skip the entire ccd program and thus this debate entails more than just a minority group of HS’ers.

This is going in circles…

On the bolded portion above: we do have something in common then. I have repeatedly said that any change should be done in such a way that would minimize the disorder. I have supported a number of plans that are not my ideal, and proposed controls that are go beyond what I would desire. I don’t expect the radical extreme (although I find that at least as workable as the current system), I expect compromise but then, I want to put substance to the concept.

I can imagine problems with test or interview processes, that is why I said that the entire system for HS’ing RE would have to be worked out ahead of time, in consultation with the pastor and approved by the bishop. This limits the priest’s liability, the parents’ desire (and ability) to fight the pastor and diocese, and everyone’s headaches.

You are insisting, like a certain politician, that you have the high ground of compromise, without putting substance to it. Unlike the current political situation, however, HS’ers are contributing ideas on how to make things work that involve compromise from their side.

 

[ASD]

Here’s a perfect example of why administrative convenience just ain’t a good enough reason to get my kids back in local “faith formation.”

I don’t know what parish OP is talking about, but that is what the ladies say at our local parish.

ASD​

Traditional Latin Mass: Translation and Grammar

 

[jmcrae]

Here’s a perfect example of why administrative convenience just ain’t a good enough reason to get my kids back in local “faith formation.”

I don’t know what parish OP is talking about, but that is what the ladies say at our local parish.

Off topic, but you might find Scott Hahn’s explanation interesting.

 

[NewEnglandPriest]

You are insisting, like a certain politician, that you have the high ground of compromise, without putting substance to it.

Come on, can we have a discussion/debate anywhere on these boards without attacking politicians we don’t like?

Unlike the current political situation, however, HS’ers are contributing ideas on how to make things work that involve compromise from their side.

I’m not going to get into particulars because each parish/diocese has its own issues that need to be addressed. Not to mention that each Bishop has his own tolerance level for experimentation.

 

[EasterJoy]

OK, I see now. Essentially, without the bishop’s permission then they’re pretty much stuck.

Well, yes, but then I would also think that one of the people from the committee that wrote the policy would be in the best position to anticipate what criteria need to be met in order to gain the bishop’s permission.

He would know what the concerns had been when the policies had been drafted: what the hurdles are. He would also know if the question of home schoolers had been seriously addressed, and if so, what the barriers to specifically including their case in the policies had been. He, too, would not be viewed as somebody who had an agenda against the policies themselves. If he said he thought this a genuine place to widen the policy, he would be more likely to have his opinion taken at face value.

Charity is needed above all, but the OP and her pastor may be in an excellent position to convince the diocese to widen the policy in a positive way, one that works better for everybody concerned. The OP has to discuss that with her pastor to see if that’s true, though, and she has to be willing to do the lion’s share of the work herself, or with the help of other home schoolers. I think she has a good chance, though.

 

[CDNowak]

I’m not going to get into particulars because each parish/diocese has its own issues that need to be addressed. Not to mention that each Bishop has his own tolerance level for experimentation.

fair enough, however, realize that the people who you claim “are saying that HS’ers are somehow being attacked and don’t have to do anything since its their right to simply do as they want.” (post 307) have been offering compromises since before you entered the discussion.

 

[zab]

I am appalled at the personal attacks that have been posted on this thread.

 

[hspinelli]

I’ve skipped a lot of discussion because I didn’t like where it was going. I would like to offer these comments:

When I was homeschooling, I chose to be involved in the parish CCD program. It was an opportunity to educate my own child, other children and other parents at the same time. It was and is a fabulous experience. Yes, many of the children in my classes have had poor formation at home. I strive to make religious education FUN and MEATY. I know my faith - and I teach from the heart. What a great feeling when some teenager comes up to you years later and says, “Remember me? You were my CCD teacher. You helped me learn about God.”

Isn’t that why we homeschool - to change the world by sharing the Good News?

And what a wonderful way to show an example of parish service to your children: by teaching CCD.

I no longer homeschool, but I still teach CCD. I would suggest that for the sacramental years (if no other) it might be worthwhile to have one parent watch the kids at home while the other teaches the sacramental class for their child and all the rest. It benefits everyone.

 

[bethndanny]

I would suggest that for the sacramental years (if no other) it might be worthwhile to have one parent watch the kids at home while the other teaches the sacramental class for their child and all the rest. It benefits everyone.

While I really do understand that you mean well with this post, this is simply not something that all families can accomplish. My husband will be deployed for the next year, and will simply not be able to help me out with the kids. Not to mention when he is here, as is the case I am sure with other families, he is not always home from work in time to make it to CCD. Furthermore, just because one is able to home school their own children, that does not mean that they are equipped to teach 20 or more children. I have the utmost respect for teachers because of their ability to manage a large group of children like that.

 

[hspinelli]

Understand completely, Beth! We’re military also! Sometimes it’s just not possible to teach CCD!

But just to throw out some other ideas that you (or someone else reading this) might be able to use down the road:

You can usually talk to your DRE and request a class size that is manageable for YOU. I’ve never taught a class (regularly) of more than 17, and I strongly believe for 2nd grade sacramental prep that more like 10-11 was ideal, so that everyone could really be part of the class.

What I did when I was teaching a class of seventeen 2nd graders: I set up a rotation for all the parents, so I was never teaching alone. I always had one extra set of hands in the classroom. They would bring a snack (because it was a long class), and we would usually try to coordinate the snack with the lesson plan. (Loaves and fishes was one theme. Table of Plenty when we talked about the Mass! We used M&Ms to count out 70x7 and the kids got to eat them for the snack.) The extra parent would help with any hands-on activity, or pass out things or clean up. If one child was misbehaving, they would deal with it so I could continue working with the other kids. These days with background checks, I don’t know if the “parent rotation” idea could be done. But it was really nice because it got ALL the parents involved and invested in sacramental prep. I found there were a lot of parents who were afraid to commit to teaching CCD because they didn’t have enough knowledge of their faith, and were tickled to be able to be a part of the class without having to teach themselves. I had more than one parent who decided she wanted to teach CCD after having the opportunity to watch for a year.

I have also contemplated (though I haven’t done it yet) offering to teach a CCD at my home at a different time that was convenient to me and to some other pupils. My own kids are involved in sports, and while we never skipped CCD for sports, it did require some schedule juggling. I have HEARD of group classes taught at home, but again - with all the background checks and child protection paranoia - I’m not sure it could be done.

I think it’s good to think creatively and cooperatively about ways to work with and within your parish. I liked to think of my efforts to work with the pastor and DRE as being an embassador of homeschool goodwill. It made things smoother for the parents that came after me. That said, I got really burned by one pastor - and it hurt most because I had invested so much loving effort.

 

[bethndanny]

Understand completely, Beth! We’re military also! Sometimes it’s just not possible to teach CCD!

But just to throw out some other ideas that you (or someone else reading this) might be able to use down the road:

You can usually talk to your DRE and request a class size that is manageable for YOU. I’ve never taught a class (regularly) of more than 17, and I strongly believe for 2nd grade sacramental prep that more like 10-11 was ideal, so that everyone could really be part of the class.

What I did when I was teaching a class of seventeen 2nd graders: I set up a rotation for all the parents, so I was never teaching alone. I always had one extra set of hands in the classroom. They would bring a snack (because it was a long class), and we would usually try to coordinate the snack with the lesson plan. (Loaves and fishes was one theme. Table of Plenty when we talked about the Mass! We used M&Ms to count out 70x7 and the kids got to eat them for the snack.) The extra parent would help with any hands-on activity, or pass out things or clean up. If one child was misbehaving, they would deal with it so I could continue working with the other kids. These days with background checks, I don’t know if the “parent rotation” idea could be done. But it was really nice because it got ALL the parents involved and invested in sacramental prep. I found there were a lot of parents who were afraid to commit to teaching CCD because they didn’t have enough knowledge of their faith, and were tickled to be able to be a part of the class without having to teach themselves. I had more than one parent who decided she wanted to teach CCD after having the opportunity to watch for a year.

I have also contemplated (though I haven’t done it yet) offering to teach a CCD at my home at a different time that was convenient to me and to some other pupils. My own kids are involved in sports, and while we never skipped CCD for sports, it did require some schedule juggling. I have HEARD of group classes taught at home, but again - with all the background checks and child protection paranoia - I’m not sure it could be done.

I think it’s good to think creatively and cooperatively about ways to work with and within your parish. I liked to think of my efforts to work with the pastor and DRE as being an embassador of homeschool goodwill. It made things smoother for the parents that came after me. That said, I got really burned by one pastor - and it hurt most because I had invested so much loving effort.

Actually, my current parish ONLY has home based CCD, including sacramental prep. My concern in this thread is not for my family, but other families that are forced into CCD despite the Church’s stance on parents being the primary faith formation teachers. As well as the idea that each home schooler should have to teach CCD if they want to be the educator of their child. I just think the bottom line is the Church says it should be the parents so IMO that means that if a parent wants to be the person to teach their child the sacramental prep than parishes should allow it. I don’t really understand the argument against that.

 

[Elizabeth502]

My concern in this thread is not for my family, but other families that are forced into CCD despite the Church’s stance on parents being the primary faith formation teachers.

I.m.o. it’s worth saying again: There is a world of difference between faith formation and sacramental preparation. I.m.o, and despite my own theological background, the latter is so important that it belongs in the hands of professionals. H’Schooling is terrific, but it can’t do everything, or everything equally well.

I sympathize and relate to the issues of absent instruction and poor instruction, which is why I suggested earlier going to a different parish or even diocese. In my local area I had heard of some families complaining of their local parish sacramental preparation programs (for particular sacraments) being so inadequate or even misleading that the offspring ended up with a disappointing experience that affected their faith commitment! Well who needs that?!

Like some others here, it’s difficult for me to believe that a compromise cannot be worked out that will not jeopardize that sacramental education but also not inconvenience the priest given the wide range of his duties and size of parishes.

And I hope the sincere h-schoolers here will first give specific CCD programs a chance before dismissing them all outright instead of examining them. As I said, there are huge differences in the quality, authenticity, and spirituality among them, depending on the parish (its pastor, its tone) and depending on the personnel administering these programs. The alternative confirmation programs I sought for my children in another diocese were run by people of prayer and included a faithful religious as well, overseeing. It took a great deal of searching on my part to find this alternative preparation program. I called every parish in 3 or 4 dioceses until I found the right one. And now I have no regrets.

 

[bethndanny]

I.m.o. it’s worth saying again: There is a world of difference between faith formation and sacramental preparation. I.m.o, and despite my own theological background, the latter is so important that it belongs in the hands of professionals.

Um, the CCD teachers, that also do sacramental prep, are not professionals. They are parents. Like me. A home schooling mama, who knows her faith. Now, the DRE at my parish recently told the parents that children can’t really mortally sin. Yep, I sure am glad that she isn’t teaching my kids… even if she would be considered a “professional”.
Also, I do not believe that there is a world of difference between sacramental prep and faith formation. Proper faith formation leads to sacramental prep. I have the books from my parish for sacramental prep (that is home taught), and there is nothing in the entire book for reconciliation or first Holy Communion, that my children have not already been taught because we live our faith and I am properly teaching faith formation.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Um, I know that. I’m talking about CCD programs being overseen by professionals, ***content authorized ***by professionals, teachers thereof hired by professionals.

Now, you’ve said before that there is “no CCD program.” Now you’re saying that there is a DRE, so is there a CCD program? Who is receiving “religious education,” since there is a Director of that department? Just adults? Something sounds dysfunctional at the parish. To go so far as to hire a DRE but have no staff beyond that seems odd to me. At my old parish there were also volunteer teachers, but they did have some training, they were experienced, and they were not the parents of the students, for a variety of reasons. They were also overseen by the pastor. He would never have approved a casual definition of mortal sin or female pronouns for God, etc.

Also, I do not believe that there is a world of difference between sacramental prep and faith formation.

We will remain in disagreement about that. I follow my faith, too; it doesn’t make me an expert in sacramental instruction, no matter how well I (try to) live the sacraments & participate in them. It makes me a good resource for answering additional questions at home, and even some questions by adults, such as converts.

I happen to value priests in that role and believe that that’s one of the many reasons they receive such thorough training: not only because they administer sacraments but because they must know them well enough to interpret them (teach them). Priests to me are not token administers of sacraments, to be dispensed with except for that role.

 

[Middleman]

Just catching up with this thread. My hat’s off the New England Priest. Judging from the discourse on this thread, being a parish priest is definitely a thankless job. I honestly don’t know how you guys do it.

 

[bethndanny]

Um, I know that. I’m talking about CCD programs being overseen by professionals, ***content authorized ***by professionals, teachers thereof hired by professionals.

Now, you’ve said before that there is “no CCD program.” Now you’re saying that there is a DRE, so is there a CCD program? Who is receiving “religious education,” since there is a Director of that department? Just adults? Something sounds dysfunctional at the parish. To go so far as to hire a DRE but have no staff beyond that seems odd to me. At my old parish there were also volunteer teachers, but they did have some training, they were experienced, and they were not the parents of the students, for a variety of reasons. They were also overseen by the pastor. He would never have approved a casual definition of mortal sin or female pronouns for God, etc.

We will remain in disagreement about that. I follow my faith, too; it doesn’t make me an expert in sacramental instruction, no matter how well I (try to) live the sacraments & participate in them. It makes me a good resource for answering additional questions at home, and even some questions by adults, such as converts.

I happen to value priests in that role and believe that that’s one of the many reasons they receive such thorough training: not only because they administer sacraments but because they must know them well enough to interpret them (teach them). Priests to me are not token administers of sacraments, to be dispensed with except for that role.

Read my post again. I never said there was no CCD program, I said it was home based. They are not synonymous. Each family receives the “authorized content” to teach at home. There is a DRE, she is the “professional” in charge of “over seeing” the religious education and sacramental prep. Not the parish priest. She is the one that said that children can’t really mortally sin. In the four parishes my family has regularly attended never has the priest been the over seer of the CCD or sacramental prep. Never have their been hired CCD teachers either, only volunteers, all were parents, none were trained. The only paid position of anyone who was a part of the CCD or sacramental prep, has been the DRE. Is that not the common thing in most parishes? I would actually probably feel differently about the whole thing if the parish priest was the over seer. But none of the parish priests have played any sort of role in CCD or sacramental preparation in any of the parishes I’ve regularly attended. Actually, the parish priest played absolutely no role in my RCIA when I came into the Church either. We should take a poll or something. I mean this in all sincerity and not to be snarky at all. I mean in your parish does the priest really over see sacramental prep? Like he meets with the children? Does he sit in on the classes? Our priest never even spoke to the children before confession or First Holy Communion. What is it that you don’t think that you would be qualified to teach your children about sacramental prep? I really do think that they are basics to our faith and as long as we take the time to teach it, then they will be prepared.

 

[Brendan]

I no longer homeschool, but I still teach CCD. I would suggest that for the sacramental years (if no other) it might be worthwhile to have one parent watch the kids at home while the other teaches the sacramental class for their child and all the rest. It benefits everyone.

As I mentioned in a previous post, classroom teaching is not necessarily a charism given to everyone. And one on one interviews is not necessarily a charism given to everyone.

So I suggested that many a homeschool parent can offer to conduct the interviews required when one conducts sacramental prep at home.

A parent who is good a classroom teaching conduct the CCD training.

In that way, everyone can best leverage the charisms given by God.

 

[Brendan]

Um, I know that. I’m talking about CCD programs being overseen by professionals, ***content authorized ***by professionals, teachers thereof hired by professionals…

We use the Baltimore Catechism which was developed by the US Bishops.

And I’ve got an MA in Theology and was in the Diaconate program. We held off ordination when my 5th child was born (my wife wanted me in the pews helping her awhile longer).

Is that close enought to being a ‘professional’?

 

[CDNowak]

I.m.o. it’s worth saying again: There is a world of difference between faith formation and sacramental preparation. I.m.o, and despite my own theological background, the latter is so important that it belongs in the hands of professionals. H’Schooling is terrific, but it can’t do everything, or everything equally well.

And what exactly is the world of difference?

 

[PaulinVA]

Okay, after much thought, I have to say the following. I am a public school parent - I don’t mean to offend anyone

1. Homeschool parents are earnest and sincere and successful teaching most of their children most of the faith. (There are always some rebellious kids who don’t want to learn.) I’m sure what they learn is reinforced at home.
2. Catholic Schools are successful in teaching most kids the most of the faith. Some parents are backing up what the kids learn, some aren’t. Some parents think writing the tuition check teaches their kids the faith by magic.
3. Religious Ed programs vary in their effectiveness. Some kids learn, some don’t. Some parents back up and reinforce the teachings, some don’t, and some actually undermine the teaching.

So, making sure that the next generation is properly catechized means that we need to include everyone - parents and children, because the polls show that a lot of parents not only don’t know, but they don’t care, and they believe what they want.

In that context, the plight of the DRE and parish priests is truly daunting. I am glad I am not responsible for the souls in a parish!

So, in that environment, what do the parents who are truly active in teaching their children the faith do, whether they be homeschoolers or not? Well, it certainly seems like they have an obligation to their parish, because they are probably the “best” catechized adults the parish has. Shouldn’t the people who know the faith the best be the ones passing it on to the children? Urge the priests and the DREs to develop a program for adult catechesis as well - that is also extremely important.

As to sacraments - yes, canon law allows/requires for parents to teach their children, and it supports asking for sacramental reception when the child is ready. However, I would ask that solutions encompass the entire issue, not just that one small part of it.