Homilies too weak?

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You mean, like as in the way you judge priests who are “wishy-washy, happy-clappy”? 🤔

Look… you and @godisgood77 have different senses of ecclesiology, clearly. You guys could choose to be charitable and recognize that both approaches are valid in the Catholic Church, and each approach appeals to a particular constituency.

Or, you could choose to castigate one another as ‘evil’ or ‘rigid’ or ‘uncaring’. 🤷‍♂️
Actually it is very seldom a good idea to try and cover all three readings and the Psalm.
That’s your opinion. Not all priests would agree. I’ve seen some skilled homilists do precisely what you think is a bad idea – and do it well!
I mean, out of morbid curiosity, do you notice something lacking in Catholic homilies? Like, exactly what they are reputed to be? In your personal experience
Some are good, some are average, some are bad. Some are one-trick ponies and some preach social justice, and some preach hagiographies, and some preach Scripture. In a half-century of hearing homilies, I’ve heard some of each. What my experience tells me is that I cannot validly extrapolate and think that any individual’s experience is characteristic for the entire Church. (Even my experience. 😉 )
Archbishop Chaput normally goes over all the readings
Clearly, then, he doesn’t know what he’s doing and is trying to force camels through needles. 🤣 😉
 
Actually it is very seldom a good idea to try and cover all three readings and the Psalm.

Most Catholics are surprised to learn that the First Reading (usually from the OT), is thematically linked to the Gospel reading. The Second Reading (from the NT) is just a continuous reading through the various Epistles of the NT. It rarely has anything to do with the other readings, and when it does, it is just a coincidence.

When you see a preacher (priest or deacon) trying to link them all together there is usually one of two things going on:
  1. They are relatively new to the ministry (trying to do too much in too short a time)
  2. They are relying heavily on a homily service publication
I have attended Mass at two different parishes the same weekend and heard the priest give the same synopsis of all the readings straight from the homily service. While these publications are meant to help the homilist prepare; by simply regurgitating what it is them – almost verbatim – is really just giving the homily that some theologian wrote.

I personally never use them, because the author does not know my parish, or what is going on here.

Better to focus on the Gospel, the words of Christ our True God, and bring forth that message. Perhaps show how the OT reading illustrates the same teaching hundreds of years prior to Jesus.

God bless you all for caring so much about the Word of God,
Deacon Christopher
Thank you Deacon. What you say is so true for some, but we have 2 wonderful priests that accomplish the task I mention each week (if they are scheduled) beautifully and do not fall into 1 or 2. I know that they are not using a service publication. We have priests that do, and it is very noticeable, especially when they use notes on paper in front of them. They just know their stuff and deliver without notes.

For me, I am well aware that the OT is linked to the Gospel and the real reason why the Psalm is called the “Responsorial” Psalm. I like that you said “usually” referring to the first reading. How many do not realize that during the Easter Season, the First Reading is from Acts and not from the OT? It falls somewhat in the same category of how many Catholics still do not know what the Immaculate Conception means? I personally believe that March 25th, The Annunciation, should be a HD of O, and not IC. That would clear up the conception misunderstanding, but that’s me.

So, basically, focus on the Gospel is really a focus on the first reading as well and both priests I mentioned, state the connection, a teaching moment for the people. Speaking on the Psalm is usually very brief, and the second reading a bonus. Interestingly enough, OT 22 is a good example where the second reading was in line with the first and Gospel.

Thank you for the blessing Deacon. The Liturgy of the Word is just as important IMO as is the Liturgy of the Eucharist.
 
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I always used to love listening to Fr. Corapi, but haven’t heard anything about what happened to him.

I know he was in some dispute with his Society (Society of Our Lady of The Most Holy Trinity), but not sure how it played out.

Your momma wears combat boots,
Deacon Christopher
 
You tend to hear better homilies/sermons from traditional priests, although that isn’t always the case. If you’re looking for good homilies, go to the Sensus Fidelium YouTube channel. Great stuff there, and lots of it to go through.
 
Chaput is an awesome homilist. I’m not saying they are all bad. And “half” was hyperbole, I admit that. While I think there are bad preachers, there are also some awesome ones.
 
Look, I hear you. Some are good, some are bad, some are average. But average in a Catholic Church is way too low.

Look, if the reputation is “Bad homilies are way too common,” among Catholics and non-Catholics, and not even you are willing to say that in your experience it isn’t true, can’t you concede that it is highly probable that there is an actual problem?

I mean…come on. This whole attitude of, “But lots of priests are good at x,” and “That’s just your experience, and maybe my experience, and maybe a lot of people’s” or “I know they have that reputation but…”

That kinda stuff can’t fly any more.

Maybe we can agree on one thing. I’ve spoken to more than one priest who is open about the fact he wings it because that makes it better in his mind. I have read news articles praising priests and bishops for winging it. Can we admit that, in these cases, preparation is the problem, and possibly a lack of instruction on what actually makes good public speaking?
 
It isn’t uncharitable to be able to tell when a speaker is unprepared. And as I have said, some actually think lack of preparation is valuable, because they value spontaneity. It is not uncharitable to agree with them that they were in fact unprepared. This is almost certainly a minority, but bad homilists are themselves an appreciable minority.

And, you are right. A lot of it is just some terrible, but very common habits, among untrained public speakers.

Beginning with an irrelevant story or joke, that is invariably not actually amusing.

Trying to address too many points and never getting any of them.

Cringy attempts at relatability through lowest common denominator-isms, that actually appeal to no one. (“How about those vague sports? Wow, those vague allusions to the local team, sure are something. Now, I’m gonna shot-for-shot explain a commercial (that can’t really be said to be even tangential to anything I’m about to say), but commercials are involuntarily watched, so I assume you’ve all seen it, and I think that is enough for it to be relevant to you.”)

“The dictionary defines…”

Long analogies that everyone remembers, but no one remembers what they were about.

The repetition of words that mean nothing and add nothing.

Padding. “Man, this public speech is too short. I’d better make it long and drown the ghost of the point I had.”

Eventually, your homily gets so full of these, there isn’t time for anything but bromides. My problem is, I encounter this constantly, and you can train people not to do this, and it isn’t that hard. It’s essentially, what not to do. If your homily is two minutes long, but you only really have 2 minutes worth of stuff to say, that is a good homily, or at least not a bad one. If seminaries are teaching homiletics, priests don’t retain it. Maybe remedial courses? Or continuing education?

People think this can’t be taught, But it absolutely CAN. And look, I don’t blame all priests who are bad at it for being bad at it. Not even the ones who think lack of preparation doesn’t hurt quality. They just don’t know this stuff totally stinks, because either they were never taught, or they forgot how.
 
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I’ve been reading some of St. Augustine’s sermons, and we definitely lost something in between then and now. I’ve had good pastors who deliver good sermons, but they all tend to sound the same after awhile. Augustine had the ability to search Scripture as if with a fine toothed comb and combine theological ideas with calls to action. For example, he spoke of a psalm that referenced a 10 string harp, and how the strings are the Commandments- seven strings guide our relationships with others, and three strings guide our relationship with God.

This is something that needs to make a comeback- this subject actually spans several sermons, if I remember correctly, so it can’t be well replicated today, but we need our clergy to start engaging us again and give us something to chew- I’m tired of sipping “this week’s message”.
 
Look, if the reputation is “Bad homilies are way too common,” among Catholics and non-Catholics, and not even you are willing to say that in your experience it isn’t true, can’t you concede that it is highly probable that there is an actual problem?
So… let me ask you: what is it that your priest does that’s most important at Mass?

Greet you at the door?
Smile while he prays?
Offers an inspiring homily?
Or maybe… just maybe… consecrates the Eucharist.

That’s what he’s there for. The rest is nice, even good… but doesn’t come near to being as important as the Eucharist. Without the Eucharist, there’s no Mass. There’s just… well… a prayer service with a homily.

Now, maybe that’s what we’re learning from the Protestant ministers we see on TV. Maybe it’s what we experience by reputation or by personal experience when we visit a Protestant chapel. But… if we compare what a minister gives us to what a priest gives us… well, we’re missing the boat when we say “I’d really like a guy who is a good speaker; I mean… Jesus in the Eucharist is ok, but I want a nice speech.” 🤷‍♂️
Can we admit that, in these cases, preparation is the problem, and possibly a lack of instruction on what actually makes good public speaking?
Perhaps. So, let me ask you: have you spoken to anyone who’s been ordained in the past 10 years or so, and asked him what kind of preparation in homiletics he experienced while in seminary? Is it possible that the dynamic you’re describing is a dynamic of a time gone by? 😉
 
If you want to hear about sin, find a traditional parish.
I think what we need to hear, is teaching on the readings of the day; that’s what the homily is supposed to be about.

So, if like recently, the Gospels were about the Eucharist, that’s what we should learn about; if it’s a parable, then it should be explained to us. If the Gospel is about sin, then by all means we should have sin explained to us; especially the more difficult teachings of Jesus (e.g. “rip out your eye”).

Most readings however, are not explicitly about sin. And any homily about sin needs to reinforce the gift of God to us, Grace through His Son and our redeemer Jesus Christ. A homily should help us grow in homily, and should take us from avoiding sin out of fear of retribution, to avoiding sin out of love for God. That’s a whole spiritual journey in itself and it requires nourishment and encouragement along the way. Too much negativity leads to discouragement.

The 12 degrees of humility in the Rule of Saint Benedict is all about this growth.

We have to make a distinction between a homily, and evangelical-style preaching. The two are not the same. The homily is meant to help us delve deeper into the text and find its spiritual meaning.
 
Does anyone else wonder why we aren’t being “fed”? I
God’s Word in 1 Cor 2:4 gives us the principle for effective preaching when St Paul writes , “My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit’s power .”

If preaching is not inspired by the Holy Spirit it will simply be clever and persuasive human speech which will not take root .
 
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What I hear is essentially, “He consecrates the Eucharist, so why should I care if he could very realistically be a more effective homilist?” Help me understand if that isn’t what you are saying.

Priest or preacher? He can do both. He can easily do both. It’s not impossible to learn to be an effective public speaker. Just because he’s a priest, (which is definitionally someone who offers the sacrifice at Divine Liturgy) does not mean he gets a pass on stuff (like other parts of his job).

And I’m glad you concede that it is possible training on this is lacking. And it is possible this is a product of a time gone-by, since the priests I’ve met of the last 10 years are USUALLY better. But the “biological solution,” (google it) has not quite been working out if you haven’t noticed. So, I think it’s important we openly acknowledge problems with the older generation.
 
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What I hear is essentially, “He consecrates the Eucharist, so why should I care if he could very realistically be a more effective homilist?” Help me understand if that isn’t what you are saying.
It’s not what I’m trying to say. I am trying to say that not all priests are fantastic homilists, and that’s OK – they have other talents that God has given them, and they use them in service to their ministry. But, whether or not your priest is a great homilist (or a great counselor, or a kind and smiling presence, or a great teacher), what he is, first and foremost, is the man through whom the sacraments are experienced at your parish.
Priest or preacher? He can do both. He can easily do both. It’s not impossible to learn to be an effective public speaker.
I disagree. Not every person has that particular talent. All, of course, can improve their skills in one way or another. However, not all can reach all levels of proficiency. (Moreover, among those for whom this is not one of their greater talents, not all will have the motivation to improve a skill at which they have less ability – and that’s not unreasonable.)
And I’m glad you concede that it is possible training on this is lacking.
Seminary formation fifty years ago was not what it is today. 🤷‍♂️

But… do you really think you’re going to ask a man in his 60’s, with 30 years experience doing what he’s doing, to suddenly change? That’s not terribly realistic.
But the “biological solution,” (google it) has not quite been working out if you haven’t noticed.
By its very nature, it works. Just slowly. :roll_eyes:
So, I think it’s important we openly acknowledge problems with the older generation.
Sometimes, those problems are with us, as we impose ourselves and our expectations on “the older generation.” 😉
 
No one is asking for them to become Billy Graham meets St. Augustine. But I can tell you, it’s not as hard as people think to eliminate some of the negative habits people have that I listed in post #156.

And while old priests have frequently been asked to change, and have frequently done so, so it is totally realistic, let’s let that one go

Could you at least agree that for younger priests, it might be a good idea to have them do continuing education as a lotta other jobs do?

As to your last sentence, I’m going to submit to you that the CAF attitude of “If you observe a problem with the clergy, it’s your fault,” is no longer a defensible attitude.
 
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Could you at least agree that for younger priests, it might be a good idea to have them do continuing education as a lotta other jobs do?
We do have to do a lot of continuing education. It takes different forms–sometimes it involves preaching, sometimes cross-cultural ministry, sometimes spirituality or any number of other related topics. My diocese provides a continuing education stipend as part of our compensation, which I’m using currently to pay tuition toward a graduate degree. There are lots of programs offered throughout the year for continuing ed. The topics are varied, of course, and when it comes to the individual and how he uses his own continuing ed money, it varies as well–some people go to conferences, others buy books and journal subscriptions. With the large number of things that a priest needs to at least be moderately knowledgeable of, perhaps we could be given a pass if preaching isn’t something we have laser focus on. Some do need to work on preaching–it is not a gift that some people possess in great measure. But as they tell us in seminary, as a diocesan priest, you don’t get to specialize.

-Fr ACEGC
 
I’m not talking about getting great, I’m talking about not being terrible
 
Gosh my parish has inspiring homilies on a regular basis. My usual priest is pretty on the mark with inspiration, he has a great sense of humour and is very good at getting to the crux of things. The retired priest who covers for his day off is very well educated and knows many ancient languages so he really gets in their with explaining the Bible in terms of how it’s been translated and the history around what is happening and how it relates to the reading. Then to top things off he loves to give you a spiritual lesson for the day. We have many visiting priests during the summer from Europe mostly, recently a lecturer from Poland bowled us all over daily with his fantastic insight into mysticism of some of the saints and all sorts of topics. He also taught us how sin invades our lives and if we aren’t careful and we think we are strong when really we ought to be depending on God far more then we do.
 
And while old priests have frequently been asked to change, and have frequently done so, so it is totally realistic, let’s let that one go
What kind of changes, though? I’m thinking that you’re making an “apples and oranges” argument here.
Could you at least agree that for younger priests, it might be a good idea to have them do continuing education as a lotta other jobs do?
As Fr George mentioned, that’s already part of the equation in many dioceses.
As to your last sentence, I’m going to submit to you that the CAF attitude of “If you observe a problem with the clergy, it’s your fault,” is no longer a defensible attitude.
That’s not what I said. I’m saying that asking the clergy to conform to your personal set of expectations is not necessarily realistic or reasonable. 😉
 
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