N
NewEnglandPriest
Guest
I did not say priests were part time, I said deacons are often part time. I made that statement is response to your post that funerals are part of a deacon’s ministry.
- Status
B
benedictgal
Guest
With all due respect, Father, when a man is ordained a deacon, be he a permanent one or a transitional one, nowhere in the ordination rite does it state that this is part-time. Granted, there are some deacons who hold regular jobs and there are also some who are retired.
In any case, unless there is a genuine emergency or the area is so remote that they rarely see clergy, the priests and/or deacons should be doing the vigil. If there is a bereavement ministry, the ones that I am familiar with either visit the families or have a meal for them after the vigil or the burial. They don’t conduct the rites.
T
twopekinguys
Guest
You are the one that seems to be “hung up” as it were on this entire issue.
You originally posted :
***"It is thus desirable that Priests and Deacons, even at some sacrifice to themselves, should preside personally at funeral rites in accordance with local custom, so as to pray for the dead and be close to their families, thus availing of an opportunity for appropriate evangelization.
The non-ordained faithful may lead the ecclesiastical obsequies provided that there is a true absence of sacred ministers and that they adhere to the prescribed liturgical norms. (111) Those so deputed should be well prepared both doctrinally and liturgically."***
First, the word desirable does not mean required or mandatory, as much as you would like it to. I believe this has been pointed out to you previously.
Second, who are you, or I to determine what personal sacrifice a priest or deacon must endure in order to fulfill something that is only “desirable”?
Also, deacons, do have lives. Many also have families to support, so where do we draw the line for them? Notice your quote says “some sacrifice”, not drop everything, ignore your parish or family, especially for something that is listed as “desirable.”
Third, as has been pointed out, some areas just don’t have the clergy to do all of these things. I would much rather see a priest giving viaticum to an individual still living, than to preside at a vigil.
Fourth, we have local custom. If it isn’t a usual custom in a particular area for this type of service to be performed, then there is a likely hood of difficulty in getting clergy to do it
Fifth, you will see that what you quoted does make allowances for properly trained lay people to assist with this.
My suggestion to you is to re read what you posted, and look at it in it’s entirety.
B
benedictgal
Guest
My best friend is a priest. While he is not perfect, he does spend himself to serve the people, whether it’s in his own parish or if a funeral home calls him to do a vigil/rosary and/or funeral Mass. There are also some others like him. He told me that he is first, last and always a priest and that this ministry comes first for him.
It is desirable that the priest and/or deacon do what they have been ordained to do, minister to people in need. Furthermore, for not a few people, this may be the first time they have had contact with clergy in years, let alone, ever. The clergy are the face of the Church and it falls upon them, primarily, to be there for the deceased and the family.
Again, those laity who are supposed to be properly trained should only be used when there is a true absence of sacred ministers.
Regarding the local custom, just read the obituaries. The Catholic deceased, for the most part, have a vigil the night before the funeral Mass, whether that is the actual liturgy or the recitation of the Rosary.
M
Melchior_1
Guest
Is it safe to say the OP has likely heard enough from both sides at this point? I don’t think continuing on like this is very constructive for what the OP wanted, but that’s just me.
T
twopekinguys
Guest
I have several good friends that are priests, and they feel the same way. However, that has nothing to do with what we are discussing.
Again, it is “desirable”. Desirable is not mandatory. I would disagree with you to a point however. The clergy is one of the faces of the church. The laity is also another.
That is what we have been trying to tell you. Whether you want to realize it or not, the rest of the world does not operate the same way as your parish. So, in many areas, the use of the laity is necessary.
Again, that is the way it is in your particular area. That isn’t the way things necessarily happen everywhere, and again, it depends on the availability of clergy. When clergy is not available (and there are many many reasons why that could be), the laity steps in.
F
FAB
Guest
I’m afraid your just wrong on this one. The the Order of Christian Funerals for the vigil can be done by the layity. It’s in the instructions. The homily is not referered to as an homily but as a reflection on the word. It might be a minor point, but it seperate the rolls of the ordained and the layity.
Even though it is preferable for a priest or deacon to do them, that’s not always possible.
By the way it is permissable for the layity to do a furneral outside of a mass of course. Both of thses are liturgy of the word services.
Peace,
FAB
B
benedictgal
Guest
FAB, evidently, with all due respect, you are disregarding Ecclesia de Mysterio. The laity are the last resort in the true absence of sacred ministers. Yes, they are to be trained, but, their usage should be only if that true absence of sacred ministers exists. That is the point that you are not getting.
Frankly, the deacons and priests should be the ones doing the vigil. Ecclesia de Mysterio does not say funeral rite; it specifically states funeral “rites”. There is an “s” at the end of the word, FAB. Rites in this case go from the vigil/rosary to the burial.
P
Phemie
Guest
I’d never even heard of a funeral vigil until I was in my late 40s. It’s not something that was done where I grew up – there was no such thing for Mom in '85 or Dad in '04, when I mentioned it when Dad died nobody knew what I was talking about.
It’s also not something that was done here until a few years ago and most people don’t know what it is, understand it or really want it. Gather for the rosary? Sure. Vigil? What’s that? Then again, they don’t want the Liturgy of the Hours either because it’s not praying.
F
FAB
Guest
With your reflection for the vigil there are several thing to keep in mind. Advoid phrases like they are in heavean with God, This is something we cannot say with certainly about any one, instead I was taught the three ‘r’s’ in vigil reflections. Rememberance, regret, redemtion.
Rememberance , with remember the person who has passe, we talk about thier life, how it related to the church and to the God. what they liked to do, waht they did fod a living , childeren spouse, how they might have been active in the church or other charities but don’t make them a saint.
Regret, we recognize the loss, our need and the approproateness to greive, how the person will be missed.
Redemption, even though we may not say they are in heaven we do recognize out joys in the salvation of Jesus Christ. Since the person is baptised, we can share in Christ promise of salvation.
I use the readings as part of the reflection. Work in how by design we are only here for a shop time, i.e. our home is but a tent , our try home is in heaven. we should be prepared to be called hom, the servants waiting for the master.
Last night I did a vigil fora woman who had lost 3 of her five children, I used the readinf from Job out of the book fior Christain funerals, refered to how even how she suffered and her faith coouls have been tested like Job, she saw beyound her pain and to the graces that God had given her.
Although I have several prewritten reflections, I revise them for every vigil to fit the person that hased pasted. They are written to reflect on the readings used.
Normailly if someone has lived a long life, they are the easiest to write, I have done several for young adults, they are much more difficult, but in those cases I will bring in that they in no promise for the lenght of ones life and focus on how that person may have brought joy and help to others.
There are acouple of books you can also find at Amazon with funeral homilies. I don’t use them except as a refereance to spur my own ideas.
I hope this help, and may God bless you in yor ministry. I think you will find it very fulfilling.
Peace,
FAB
F
FAB
Guest
Benedictgal, often the layity is the only resort. I’ll agree to what is prefered, but in the real world not always possible.The rites, with the exception of the mass, are written with notations for when a layperson is presiding. We all share in the Corpal work of mercy to bury the dead.
Peace,
FAB
B
benedictgal
Guest
F
FAB
Guest
Benedictal, you are fond of using church documents to make a point of what is allowed and is not. The documents for christian funerals clearly indicate that the laity is allowed to preside. If you like it or not is not the issue, it is what it is.
I’m not certain why you thing there is a plethora of cleargy in the city’s, it’s not the case. The demands on the clergy are great, this is one area in which the laity help can fulfill a very much needed and necessary role in the Church.
Peace,
FAB
B
benedictgal
Guest
I have been quoting Ecclesia de Mysterio, something that you seem to have ignored. It’s a bonafide Church document. In the case of funeral rites, this is not something that should be left up to the laity to do, unless there is a true absence of sacred ministers. That is what you and twopekingguys do not seem to understand or want to understand.
F
FrDavid96
Guest
Friends,
There is a distinction here between the vigil service and the (rest of the) funeral rites. The funeral rites themselves must be done by a priest, or in the absence of a priest a deacon, or as a last resort the laity.
The vigil service itself, however, is not part of the universal funeral rites–not as such. The fact that the vigil is included in the book *Rite of Christian Burial *is (somewhat) an American adaptation. When the Holy See reserves the funeral rites to the clergy, they are speaking of what happens in the church building, and what happens at the cemetery–in the US these are referred to as the 2nd and 3rd stations.
Even before the current Rite of Christian Burial, the Church recommended that the family gather and keep vigil. The Office for the Dead, and/or the Rosary was strongly suggested. See the Roman Ritual. sanctamissa.org/en/resources/books-1962/rituale-romanum/42-requiem-the-liturgy-for-the-faithful-departed-introduction.html
During the time of the wake there should be concern above all for the departed soul, with the Office for the Dead recited either in its official form or in an abbreviated and simplified vernacular, or suitable readings from Sacred Scripture and the rosary service.
The vigil service is a variation (or short form) of the Liturgy of the Hours for the Faithful Departed, aka the Office for the Dead. The reason why it’s printed in the book is because there is an American custom of gathering friends and family together on the occasion of death. We call it a vigil or a wake service because the family would gather and “keep vigil” at night, to see if the person had indeed died, waiting for the body to “wake.” If the body did not wake, they would call the priest for the funeral rites (if he was not already aware–of course, he “should” have already been called). This is not a vigil in the sense that we use the word for a Saturday evening Mass. It was “keeping vigil.”
Just like any other communal gathering for the LOTH, the preference is to have a priest or at least a deacon preside. Certainly on the occasion of death, there is a strong pastoral component which obligates the clergy to offer their ministry both to the survivors and for the soul of the departed. At the same time, like any other time the LOTH is prayed, in the absence of a cleric, a layperson can (and should) lead this prayer.
The distinction between the Vigil (LOTH) and the actual funeral rites is an important one–at least for purposes of this thread topic. Only a cleric may preside at the funeral rites, however a layperson may do so as an “extraordinary minister” if there is genuine necessity.
There is a distinction here between the vigil service and the (rest of the) funeral rites. The funeral rites themselves must be done by a priest, or in the absence of a priest a deacon, or as a last resort the laity.
The vigil service itself, however, is not part of the universal funeral rites–not as such. The fact that the vigil is included in the book *Rite of Christian Burial *is (somewhat) an American adaptation. When the Holy See reserves the funeral rites to the clergy, they are speaking of what happens in the church building, and what happens at the cemetery–in the US these are referred to as the 2nd and 3rd stations.
Even before the current Rite of Christian Burial, the Church recommended that the family gather and keep vigil. The Office for the Dead, and/or the Rosary was strongly suggested. See the Roman Ritual. sanctamissa.org/en/resources/books-1962/rituale-romanum/42-requiem-the-liturgy-for-the-faithful-departed-introduction.html
During the time of the wake there should be concern above all for the departed soul, with the Office for the Dead recited either in its official form or in an abbreviated and simplified vernacular, or suitable readings from Sacred Scripture and the rosary service.
The vigil service is a variation (or short form) of the Liturgy of the Hours for the Faithful Departed, aka the Office for the Dead. The reason why it’s printed in the book is because there is an American custom of gathering friends and family together on the occasion of death. We call it a vigil or a wake service because the family would gather and “keep vigil” at night, to see if the person had indeed died, waiting for the body to “wake.” If the body did not wake, they would call the priest for the funeral rites (if he was not already aware–of course, he “should” have already been called). This is not a vigil in the sense that we use the word for a Saturday evening Mass. It was “keeping vigil.”
Just like any other communal gathering for the LOTH, the preference is to have a priest or at least a deacon preside. Certainly on the occasion of death, there is a strong pastoral component which obligates the clergy to offer their ministry both to the survivors and for the soul of the departed. At the same time, like any other time the LOTH is prayed, in the absence of a cleric, a layperson can (and should) lead this prayer.
The distinction between the Vigil (LOTH) and the actual funeral rites is an important one–at least for purposes of this thread topic. Only a cleric may preside at the funeral rites, however a layperson may do so as an “extraordinary minister” if there is genuine necessity.
T
twopekinguys
Guest
Unfortunately, it is you that is just not understanding for some reason.
Even the church knows, and demonstrates by that document that clergy may not be available for these things.
Why is that so hard for you to understand?
Every parish, every diocese isn’t staffed to capacity with priests and deacons.
I am happy for you that your parish/diocese have an over abundance of clergy so these needs can be met. How wonderful for you.!!
Now, time to come back to reality. It doesn’t work that way everywhere.
I am going to re-post a couple of questions that you have failed to address.
Who are you, or I to determine what personal sacrifice a priest or deacon must endure in order to fulfill something that is only “desirable”?
Deacons, do have lives. Many also have families to support, so where do we draw the line for them?
Let me give you an example of the lives of 2 of the 5 deacons in my parish.
Both of them work for an extremely large company that manufactures heavy equipment. The company has plants all over the US, Canada, Mexico, South America, Europe, and China.
Both of these gentlemen travel extensively for their jobs. They are constantly flying from country to county, often times gone for 3 weeks out of the month. Many times, they will get home on a Tuesday, and have to leave again on Thursday.
Both of these men have families. After being gone for so long, do you expect them to drop everything, especially at the last minute, and preside over a “vigil” service? What about their families?
One of our deacons is almost 90 years old. He doesn’t go out after dark, and very rarely during our winters. Do you expect him to risk his health and safety?
The remaining 2 deacons own their own businesses. Their hours are erratic at best. Do you expect them to abandon supporting their family in order to preside at a vigil?
Our 3 priests are stretched extremely thin. We have 5 local hospitals, countless nursing homes, hundreds of homebound elderly, not to mention the daily duties of running a large parish and school.
These people cannot be everywhere at once. That is where the laity come in.
You really need to use common sense with this issue. The Church has. That is why the use of laity is allowed.
F
FAB
Guest
From Ecclesia de Mysterio
This does not say “last resort” or in the abstance of ordained ministers but when necessary as seen by the pastor. It also indacts that this also enriches the community.
Then funeral vigil is a liturgy of the word, of which I know of no proabition for the laity to preside at.
Peace,
FAB
B
benedictgal
Guest
FAB, you also need to read the part about the funeral rites. For the record, I have already stipulated in my will that I do not want any laity “presiding” over my vigil. It will be done in accordance with the Church.
Again, here is what Ecclesia de Mysterio states:
For not a few people, the funeral rites may be the first time (in a long time or any time) that they will have contact with a member of the clergy, priest or deacon. To just leave this to the laity is not good pastorally.
D
DCNBILL
Guest
Ouch
- Status