Homosexual Activists on Campus

[Chris_Jacobsen]

Gnosis:

Yes, God forbid we should let the gays feel accepted and have happy lives like the rest of us. What is this world coming to?

I remember when I grew up knowing i was gay in Catholic home. Everytime somebody talked about the 'moral evil of same-sex marriage being pushed" or “that terrible boy who brought his boyfriend to the prom”…I just looked deep down inside and thought how much God must hate fags to deliver them unto a world like this.

cheers.

It seems to me the problem isn’t that one likes boys. Rather, it the problem appears to be a lack of common sense, as well as a dislike of girls… What possible objection could a boy, who wants to go to a prom, have to inviting a girl?

There are plenty of boys who never grow up and remain adolescents all of their lives. They have never figured out that certain activities are appropriate with men and other activities are appropriate with women. An example of this is a married man who seeks friendships with women rather than friendships with other men.

 

[Gnosis]

So you’re saying that I am a homosexual out of a lack of common sense and immaturity? That’s a rather pretentious and ignorant claim.

 

[TarAshly]

I wish i could be of some help to your cause, however i do not believe that homosexuals should be shunned in the church or anywhere else. I would offer maybe try to tolerate what is different, and love the sinner hate the sin. But i am in agreement with you that the pictures are inappropriate.

KarrollKid04:

I am very concerned about some of the things I have seen going on around my campus the past year or so and was wondering if anyone had any (name removed by moderator)ut or suggestions. Just to let you know, I attend a Catholic, Jesuit university. One of the organizations on campus is called “Allies.” Their mission statement, directly taken from our school’s student-organization website, reads:

Allies seeks to offer support to students that are interested in issues that concern gays, lesbians, and bisexuals. Our mission is to plan speakers, trips, and activities that will promote a better understanding of the gay, lesbian, and bisexual population within the teachings and doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. Furthermore, we hope to promote Christian teachings by advocating the importance of acceptance, love, and tolerance of all people.

I would have no problem with the organization if they lived up to their mission statement. If “Allies” resembled a Courage-type organization, I would strongly support it. But the statement above is very misleading about the group. This past week was supposedly “coming out” week. All around campus they put up signs and wrote on sidewalks that homosexuality is normal and it is nothing to hide. Their signs–which were posted throughout our academic, administration, and residence buildings–included images of men kissing men and females kissing females. The signs boasted that “1 out of 10 people are gay” and then questioned readers if they might be homosexual or bisexual. To make matters worse, some signs promoted the fact that famous figures (Madonna, Elton John, Alexander the Great), are/were gay or bisexual–so what could possibly be wrong with homsexuality?

I am appalled. One of the reasons I came to this school is because it is a CATHOLIC university. I understand that many professors these days are rather liberal, and I further understand that the Jesuits (with exceptions) often are not the best at promoting orthodox views of Catholic theology. But come on? Does this not sound ridiculous and utterly inappropriate on a Catholic university?!

If anyone has experienced anything like this at their own school, or if anyone has suggestions for what might be done, I would greatly appreciate them. Does Rome do anything to ensure that schools that claim to be Catholic actually promote and teach the truth Catholic faith? Is there someone to write to or speak to? Again, I am not against homosexuals, but I am against behavior that is clearly immoral in the eyes of the Catholic faith.

Thank you for your help! God bless!

 

[TarAshly]

Ok hold on hold on hold on. Before we start jumping on someone think about this. what if straight was wrong? As a straight married woman, if someone told me to love another woman no way on earth could i do something like that. I dont believe homosexuals should be shunned, i believe they should be loved and accepted. Hatred is not what this church is about.

 

[buffalo]

Gnosis:

So you’re saying that I am a homosexual out of a lack of common sense and immaturity? That’s a rather pretentious and ignorant claim.

If you are pursuing it it might be.

 

[buffalo]

TarAshly:

Ok hold on hold on hold on. Before we start jumping on someone think about this. what if straight was wrong? As a straight married woman, if someone told me to love another woman no way on earth could i do something like that. I dont believe homosexuals should be shunned, i believe they should be loved and accepted. Hatred is not what this church is about.

Who hates homosexuals themselves? It is the sin and advancement of an agenda that we hate. We hate the selling of this deviant lifestyle to our children. We hate the “in your face” agenda. We hate the sin.

And don’t forget - True Christian charity demands fraternal correction, for we are to help souls achieve heaven.

 

[TarAshly]

I also dont believe in this conspiracy theory that ALL the homosexuals are pushing some “agenda” i have gay friends who KNOW i am Catholic and they know how i feel about the homosexual act. i dont talk to them about my sex life and they dont talk to me about theirs and we all get a long great. I invite them to church, sometimes they come. its all about being charitable to them and trusting that God will open their hearts. God dont make junk. who am i to judge his creation?

 

[buffalo]

TarAshly:

God dont make junk. who am i to judge his creation?

Do you have facts that support your contention that God created them this way?

For sake of argument only - if God created me with a tendency to steal or to be an alcoholic, does this relieve me of my personal responsibilty to master this inclination.

Chastity and homosexuality

[2357](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2357.htm’) Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

[2359](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2359.htm’) Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

 

[buffalo]

I. THE HUMAN VIRTUES

1804 Human virtues are firm attitudes, stable dispositions, habitual perfections of intellect and will that govern our actions, order our passions, and guide our conduct according to reason and faith. They make possible ease, self-mastery, and joy in leading a morally good life. The virtuous man is he who freely practices the good.

The moral virtues are acquired by human effort. They are the fruit and seed of morally good acts; they dispose all the powers of the human being for communion with divine love.

The cardinal virtues

1805 Four virtues play a pivotal role and accordingly are called “cardinal”; all the others are grouped around them. They are: prudence, justice, fortitude, and temperance. "If anyone loves righteousness, [Wisdom’s] labors are virtues; for she teaches temperance and prudence, justice, and courage."64 These virtues are praised under other names in many passages of Scripture.

1806 Prudence is the virtue that disposes practical reason to discern our true good in every circumstance and to choose the right means of achieving it; "the prudent man looks where he is going."65 "Keep sane and sober for your prayers."66 Prudence is “right reason in action,” writes St. Thomas Aquinas, following Aristotle.67 It is not to be confused with timidity or fear, nor with duplicity or dissimulation. It is called auriga virtutum (the charioteer of the virtues); it guides the other virtues by setting rule and measure. It is prudence that immediately guides the judgment of conscience. The prudent man determines and directs his conduct in accordance with this judgment. With the help of this virtue we apply moral principles to particular cases without error and overcome doubts about the good to achieve and the evil to avoid.

1807 Justice is the moral virtue that consists in the constant and firm will to give their due to God and neighbor. Justice toward God is called the “virtue of religion.” Justice toward men disposes one to respect the rights of each and to establish in human relationships the harmony that promotes equity with regard to persons and to the common good. The just man, often mentioned in the Sacred Scriptures, is distinguished by habitual right thinking and the uprightness of his conduct toward his neighbor. "You shall not be partial to the poor or defer to the great, but in righteousness shall you judge your neighbor."68 "Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven."69

1808 Fortitude is the moral virtue that ensures firmness in difficulties and constancy in the pursuit of the good. It strengthens the resolve to resist temptations and to overcome obstacles in the moral life. The virtue of fortitude enables one to conquer fear, even fear of death, and to face trials and persecutions. It disposes one even to renounce and sacrifice his life in defense of a just cause. "The Lord is my strength and my song."70 "In the world you have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."71

1809 Temperance is the moral virtue that moderates the attraction of pleasures and provides balance in the use of created goods. It ensures the will’s mastery over instincts and keeps desires within the limits of what is honorable. The temperate person directs the sensitive appetites toward what is good and maintains a healthy discretion: "Do not follow your inclination and strength, walking according to the desires of your heart."72 Temperance is often praised in the Old Testament: "Do not follow your base desires, but restrain your appetites."73 In the New Testament it is called “moderation” or “sobriety.” We ought "to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world."74

To live well is nothing other than to love God with all one’s heart, with all one’s soul and with all one’s efforts; from this it comes about that love is kept whole and uncorrupted (through temperance). No misfortune can disturb it (and this is fortitude). It obeys only [God] (and this is justice), and is careful in discerning things, so as not to be surprised by deceit or trickery (and this is prudence).

 

[felra]

I also dont believe in this conspiracy theory that ALL the homosexuals are pushing some “agenda” i have gay friends who KNOW i am Catholic and they know how i feel about the homosexual act. i dont talk to them about my sex life and they dont talk to me about theirs and we all get a long great. I invite them to church, sometimes they come. its all about being charitable to them and trusting that God will open their hearts. God dont make junk. who am i to judge his creation?

But all homosexuals who are active in the lifestyle and make no great effort to conceal this lewd lifestyle between “partners” only, are in fact promoting this lifestyle and in a spiritual realm are acting as evangelist for the kingdom of darkness. Also, I doubt that I could ever have a “great” relationship or over time maintain an enduring “close” relationship with someone who continues in a gravely sinful lifestyle.

 

[TarAshly]

Well Felra, Thats you and I’m me. I love all of God’s people and i dont believe myself worthy enough to judge another human being. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

felra:

But all homosexuals who are active in the lifestyle and make no great effort to conceal this lewd lifestyle between “partners” only, are in fact promoting this lifestyle and in a spiritual realm are acting as evangelist for the kingdom of darkness. Also, I doubt that I could ever have a “great” relationship or over time maintain an enduring “close” relationship with someone who continues in a gravely sinful lifestyle.

 

[buffalo]

TarAshly:

Well Felra, Thats you and I’m me. I love all of God’s people and i dont believe myself worthy enough to judge another human being. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

TarAshly - no one is worthy enough to judge another human being. However, we are worthy to judge their behavior. This is the judgement that is talked about in the Gospel referred to as fraternal correction.

Matthew 18:15

11 "If your brother 12 sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother. 16 13 If he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, so that ‘every fact may be established on the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. 14 If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

From the Catechism:

1435 Conversion is accomplished in daily life by gestures of reconciliation, concern for the poor, the exercise and defense of justice and right,33 by the admission of faults to one’s brethren, fraternal correction, revision of life, examination of conscience, spiritual direction, acceptance of suffering, endurance of persecution for the sake of righteousness. Taking up one’s cross each day and following Jesus is the surest way of penance.34

From Newadvent
Fraternal Correction

Fraternal correction is here taken to mean the admonishing of one’s neighbor by a private individual with the purpose of reforming him or, if possible, preventing his sinful indulgence. This is clearly distinguishable from an official disciplining, whose mouthpiece is a judge or other like superior, whose object is the punishment of one found to be guilty, and whose motive is not so directly the individual advantage of the offender as the furtherance of the common good. That there is, upon occasion and with due regard to circumstances, an obligation to administer fraternal correction there can be no doubt. This is a conclusion not only deducible from the natural law binding us to love and to assist one another, but also explicitly contained in positive precept such as the inculcation of Christ: “If thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother” (Matthew 18:15). Given a sufficiently grave condition of spiritual distress calling for succour in this way, this commandment may exact fulfilment under pain of mortal sin. This is reckoned to be so only when

more…

 

[felra]

TarAshly:

Well Felra, Thats you and I’m me. I love all of God’s people and i dont believe myself worthy enough to judge another human being. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

You mischaracterize my honest thoughts as being judgemental.

I am still amazed that whenever one expresses a honest sentiment, the “do not judge lest you be judged” and “pull the plank from your own eye” button gets pushed. I suppose that St. Paul would fare even worse than I on the forums with his forthright words:

1 Corinthian 5: 9-13 “I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with immoral men; not at all meaning the immoral of this world, or the greedy and robbers, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of immorality or greed, or is an idolater, reviler, drunkard, or robber – not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. "Drive out the wicked person from among you.’”

Ephesians 5: 6-11 “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not associate with them, for once you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord; walk as children of light (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true), and try to learn what is pleasing to the Lord. Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.”

 

[TarAshly]

So some Bible quotes are appropriate and others such as “the plank” and the “stone throwing” are not… Felra unfortunately my sister you and I rarely see eye to eye. I love you as my sister in Christ, but as usual i am afraid that you and I will have to agree to disagree.

TarAshly

 

[Guar_Fan]

buffalo:

TarAshly - no one is worthy enough to judge another human being. However, we are worthy to judge their behavior. This is the judgement that is talked about in the Gospel referred to as fraternal correction.

Matthew 18:15 11 "If your brother 12 sins (against you), go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have won over your brother.

Your quote doesn’t support your argument. It says that if someone sins against you, if they cause you injury, then you should correct them.

Passing judgement against a person, when their behavior doesn’t affect you, is not something we should be doing as Christians.

 

[felra]

So some Bible quotes are appropriate and others such as “the plank” and the “stone throwing” are not… Felra unfortunately my sister you and I rarely see eye to eye. I love you as my sister in Christ, but as usual i am afraid that you and I will have to agree to disagree.

TarAshly

I offered those scriptures to show those who would out of hand accuse/presume me as being judgemental. There is a broader spectrum, and often overlooked/ignored/avoided, spectrum of understanding the appropriate response and Christian mind set, to the sinful patterns and lifestyle choices of those who commend themselves of the same household of faith. If you read the scripture from St. Paul carefully in context, he is conveying what it means to love the sinner and despise the sin in authentic Christ-like love.

There is no dichotomy in the scriptures, more a failure on our part to study and digest what the scripture is teaching. I offer you this feedback so we can all get beyond superficial exchanges and fail to reach for true compassion to those we know and care about that are caught in sinfulness.

Matthew 7:1 2 "Stop judging, that you may not be judged.” (NAB)

Footnote 2: 2 [1] This is not a prohibition against recognizing the faults of others, which would be hardly compatible with Matthew 7:5, 6 but against passing judgment in a spirit of arrogance, forgetful of one’s own faults.

Matthew 7: 5 “You hypocrite, 3 remove the wooden beam from your eye first; then you will see clearly to remove the splinter from your brother’s eye.” (NAB)
**
Footnote3: 3 [5] Hypocrite: the designation previously given to the scribes and Pharisees is here given to the Christian disciple who is concerned with the faults of another and ignores his own more serious offenses.

http://www.nccbuscc.org/nab/bible/matthew/matthew7.htm

BTW – Is my “feminine side” must be coming out too strongly this thread?

 

[TarAshly]

I see where youre coming from Felra, but are we not all called to be Christ like? as a Legionary I am called also to immulate Mary. I just dont see Jesus turning away a sinner, not eating with them, not comforting them. I can not see Mary admonishing someone and turning her back on them. I try my best to be an imulation of Mary and a daughter of Christ, I believe compassion for ALL of God’s people is #1. By the way, im sorry about calling you a female, I have always thought you were for the last year i have been on these boards. Sorry for that brother!

 

[buffalo]

Guar Fan:

Your quote doesn’t support your argument. It says that if someone sins against you, if they cause you injury, then you should correct them.

Passing judgement against a person, when their behavior doesn’t affect you, is not something we should be doing as Christians.

Fraternal correction covers it very well - read the link. First of all you are using the PC version of judgement. We cannot judge their salvation, only God can. We can however judge their works.

From Newadvent
Fraternal Correction

A sin against the common good is included.

True Christian charity demands fraternal correction not apathy.

 

[Guar_Fan]

buffalo:

True Christian charity demands fraternal correction not apathy.

I see your point and agree with you. But doesn’t the word “fraternal” mean “brotherly”? If so, doesn’t this suggest that there be some bond of trust, repect or love between the two persons? Its hard to imagine that this relationship exists between people who only know of one another via forum posts.

And one of the five requirements for fraternal correction, according to the article, is: “there is a well-founded expectation that the admonition will be heeded”. I think this again refers back to the nature of the relationship between the two persons. Its much more likely that I will accept a rebuke from someone I know, love or respect than from someone I only know via their email name.

I agree with you that fraternal correction is an important obligation. But I am not sure that it really can (or should) play a role in online forums between relative strangers.

 

[iserve]

The brotherhood refers to fellow Christians, which we are talking about here- a Catholic college, a gay person growing up in a Catholic home… Where on earth would you find in Scripture a passage that leads you to believe that Jesus would embrace the sins of anyone? He died so that we would not have to bear the weight of our sins, but He never said they were okay- we are called to be all that God wants us to be, pure in heart and deed.

BTW- For those out there who buy the product of people like Elton John… If you liked the looks of a product made by prisoners in a concentration camp, would you buy it? For my own two cents, I will not buy or watch or listen to products made by people promoting sin, as I feel it adds to their importance. There is more than enough entertainment out there in the world that I can successfully ignore those who try to sell sin with their products. Why should I build up what conspires to take what I love down?