Homosexual Children, Brothers, Sisters

[CopticChristian]

Homosexual sympathizers, Homosexuals, those believing that the Church will change its beliefs concerning Homosexuals create controversy and clouded discussions. I started thinking…

We believe that we are Creatures until Baptized at which point we become Children of God…

Once you were dead because of your disobedience and your many sins.

and

19For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

We accept all Baptized in the trinitarian formula as true Christians and they are considered our brothers and sisters…becoming Children of God is not by our birth…as we must be born again in Baptism, by the Holy Spirit…

See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are.

We acknowledge any Homosexual that has been baptized in the trinitarian formula as a brother and sister…yet Paul tells us…

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

so we need not condemn, only exhort those that linger in the notion of mainatining a life of Homosexuallity in action as their fate is not of our doing, but of their own doing as noted above.

They remain dead in their transgression, remain sinners, through disobedience…for those in mortal sin are spiritual corpses…and for that we should languish hoping they can get recussitated…as Paul says here…

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

on the other hand there are children, as addressed here…

usccb.org/issues-and-action/human-life-and-dignity/homosexuality/always-our-children.cfm

ALWAYS OUR CHILDREN: A PASTORAL MESSAGE TO PARENTS OF HOMOSEXUAL CHILDREN AND SUGGESTIONS FOR PASTORAL MINISTERS

So, there are people in the world, not Baptized as well, however as Paul points out…

29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

We must accept that there are those in the world that are not yet prepared for the fullness of the gospel, yet God guides them too…they may be homosexual…

We then encounter Homosexuals, not Baptized, Homosexuals Baptized, Homosexuals not Baptized that may be circumcised of the heart looking for truth…and then there are the children of families that struggle with SSA…

It causes reflection that in encounters with Homosexuals, Homosexual sympathizers, and others…

who are our brothers and sisters…? and to dialogue effectively we should know and ask…if they have been baptized and if in their quest not being baptized if they seek a greater good, circumcised of the heart…

Thoughts.

 

[DexUK]

We are not ‘creatures until we are baptised’.

To say that implies that baptism is the point at which the immortal soul is imbued in a person.

And that would be a grave heresy.

 

[CopticChristian]

We are not ‘creatures until we are baptised’.

To say that implies that baptism is the point at which the immortal soul is imbued in a person.

And that would be a grave heresy.

Dex,

In the beginning God created…we were created and as a result of creation, we are creatures…

When do you become a child of God?

 

[DexUK]

Dex,

In the beginning God created…we were created and as a result of creation, we are creatures…

When do you become a child of God?

Everyone is a child of God because we are all created in the image of God, baptised and non-baptised alike.

Baptism washes clean Original Sin, but it doesn’t change the nature of our creation. Inasmuch as we are a creature before baptism, we are the same after. Your initial post suggested you believed otherwise, however I’m quite prepared to accept that it was a failure of language rather than a failure in your understanding.

 

[CopticChristian]

Everyone is a child of God because we are all created in the image of God, baptised and non-baptised alike.

Baptism washes clean Original Sin, but it doesn’t change the nature of our creation. Inasmuch as we are a creature before baptism, we are the same after. Your initial post suggested you believed otherwise, however I’m quite prepared to accept that it was a failure of language rather than a failure in your understanding.

Dex,

How do you reconcile the statement of Paul here…with what you say…

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

We are all children of Adam, dead in our transgressions, until we are Baptized and then
we become Children of God…

We are spiritually dead until that point…

18Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

and

4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

and earlier in 1John he says in the discourse of the children that their sins are forgiven…how…in Baptism…then noting that we are called children after that, not before that…

12I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name’s sake. 13I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father. 14I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.

This is consistent with Catholic Teaching, God calls, our response is made possible by God, we accept Baptism, and through Grace are allowed to please God by virtue of His grace…

On our own we can do nothing…

So that on our own we are dead in our transgressions, and if dead, how can you be considered anything alive until you are Baptized?

Once Baptized, born again of water and spirit…the Father says…hey look a child of God…and so we are…

 

[DexUK]

Are you a theologian as well as a medical doctor now?

I just do as the Church tells me.

 

[bzkoss236]

Everyone is a child of God because we are all created in the image of God, baptised and non-baptised alike.

Baptism washes clean Original Sin, but it doesn’t change the nature of our creation. Inasmuch as we are a creature before baptism, we are the same after. Your initial post suggested you believed otherwise, however I’m quite prepared to accept that it was a failure of language rather than a failure in your understanding.

CCC 1265:

Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,” member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit.

 

[CopticChristian]

Are you a theologian as well as a medical doctor now?

I just do as the Church tells me.

Dex,

I suggest you get Catechized…get hold of the USA Catechism for Adults…it is available in audio…I have listened to it well over a dozen times…you can get it on Amazon.uk…

it is divided into 4 parts…

Profession of Faith
Sacramental Life
Life in Christ
Prayer…

When you view the Sacraments, take notice of the section on Baptism…when someone speaks on behalf of the teahcings of the Church…as we all part of the mission of Christ…we share in the priesthood of Christ and are fellow co workers…when I speak the truths of the Church…then the truth is the truth…

we are new creations and children of God after our Baptism…

I would pray that with humility as you accept that you do not understand what is taught in the Catehism neither are you expert on Homosexuality other than to parrot what the American Psychiatric Association promotes…and to suggest you want to argue this…you should reflect on whether you serve any purpose in doing this…only you know…

 

[CopticChristian]

bzkoss236:
BZ,

It is a shame that many Catholics fail to continue Catechesis…we are called to constantly

repent=change our minds

and

Paul says not to be conformed to this world but to be transformed by the renewal of our minds. What is in the Catechism, was stated at the Council of Orange, seen here, reaffirmed at Trent and now resides in the Catechism…

Council of Orange (529 AD)
Canons 4-8

CANON 4. If anyone maintains that God awaits our will to be cleansed from sin, but does not confess that even our will to be cleansed comes to us through the infusion and working of the Holy Spirit, he resists the Holy Spirit himself who says through Solomon, “The will is prepared by the Lord” (Prov. 8:35, LXX), and the salutary word of the Apostle, “For God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil. 2:13).

CANON 5. If anyone says that not only the increase of faith but also its beginning and the very desire for faith, by which we believe in Him who justifies the ungodly and comes to the regeneration of holy baptism – if anyone says that this belongs to us by nature and not by a gift of grace, that is, by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit amending our will and turning it from unbelief to faith and from godlessness to godliness, it is proof that he is opposed to the teaching of the Apostles, for blessed Paul says, “And I am sure that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ” (Phil. 1:6). And again, “For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God” (Eph. 2:8). For those who state that the faith by which we believe in God is natural make all who are separated from the Church of Christ by definition in some measure believers.

CANON 6. If anyone says that God has mercy upon us when, apart from his grace, we believe, will, desire, strive, labor, pray, watch, study, seek, ask, or knock, but does not confess that it is by the infusion and inspiration of the Holy Spirit within us that we have the faith, the will, or the strength to do all these things as we ought; or if anyone makes the assistance of grace depend on the humility or obedience of man and does not agree that it is a gift of grace itself that we are obedient and humble, he contradicts the Apostle who says, “What have you that you did not receive?” (1 Cor. 4:7), and, “But by the grace of God I am what I am” (1 Cor. 15:10).

CANON 7. If anyone affirms that we can form any right opinion or make any right choice which relates to the salvation of eternal life, as is expedient for us, or that we can be saved, that is, assent to the preaching of the gospel through our natural powers without the illumination and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, who makes all men gladly assent to and believe in the truth, he is led astray by a heretical spirit, and does not understand the voice of God who says in the Gospel, “For apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5), and the word of the Apostle, “Not that we are competent of ourselves to claim anything as coming from us; our competence is from God” (2 Cor. 3:5).

CANON 8. If anyone maintains that some are able to come to the grace of baptism by mercy but others through free will, which has manifestly been corrupted in all those who have been born after the transgression of the first man, it is proof that he has no place in the true faith. For he denies that the free will of all men has been weakened through the sin of the first man, or at least holds that it has been affected in such a way that they have still the ability to seek the mystery of eternal salvation by themselves without the revelation of God. The Lord himself shows how contradictory this is by declaring that no one is able to come to him “unless the Father who sent me draws him” (John 6:44), as he also says to Peter, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 16:17), and as the Apostle says, “No one can say ‘Jesus is Lord’ except by the Holy Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:3).

Many choose not to change their minds, nor be transformed by the renewal of their minds.

 

[mountee]

This thread interested me by the title as we have a homosexual in our family. Honest conversations which help Catholics like myself with the theology on this subject are very helpful and important. You, as well as the other two posters, have provided great food for thought and I admit that I am one who needs to be catechized. However, I hope you won’t mind me saying this it is not meant as a criticism, I am not sure what your original post really meant. Would you consider condensing the main point you were making into simpler terms? I want to make sure I understand. Thanks.

 

[CopticChristian]

This thread interested me by the title as we have a homosexual in our family. Honest conversations which help Catholics like myself with the theology on this subject are very helpful and important. You, as well as the other two posters, have provided great food for thought and I admit that I am one who needs to be catechized. However, I hope you won’t mind me saying this it is not meant as a criticism, I am not sure what your original post really meant. Would you consider condensing the main point you were making into simpler terms? I want to make sure I understand. Thanks.

Mountee,

What I think is less important than what you think. What would aid your understanding?

 

[mountee]

Mountee,

What I think is less important than what you think. What would aid your understanding?

It seemed like we are being challenged in how we feel about or how we approach those who are homosexual as to whether they are baptized or not. Don’t laugh, that is what is confusing to me!

 

[CopticChristian]

It seemed like we are being challenged in how we feel about or how we approach those who are homosexual as to whether they are baptized or not. Don’t laugh, that is what is confusing to me!

Mountee,

No, there is often declaration that Homosexuals are children of God, they are our brothers and sisters…so…

Who are children of God? Those that are baptized in the trinitarian formula.

Who are our brothers and sisters in Christ? Same answer…

Then we have another category…

Those that honestly seek God, though not in the Covenant may be of the Covenant by doing what is written on their hearts…

This may be homosexuals that come to terms with the need for God, abandon a life of sin and answer the call of God…as we believe God always calls us and aids our response…

So, when dialoguing with someone that is homosexual…are they seeking God, have they been baptized and have turned from God…

It is like any other sinner…including the likes of me and you…

 

[mountee]

Got it, and I sincerely appreciate the time you took to help me.

 

[CopticChristian]

Got it, and I sincerely appreciate the time you took to help me.

Mountee,

You are welcome. If you have other concerns, based on your situation, express them…it is my intention to clarify and not cloud.