Homosexual marriage don't make sense

[Newbie2]

Because incestuous relationships are against the law.

What then, about such chaste relationships? No law about a brother and sister living out their lives together sans sex.

 

[East_and_West]

I think is ridiculous when people think that homosexuals playing house are in the same kind of relationship as a heterosexual married couple. Its just childish.

 

[BillP]

Unmarried heterosexual couples included? What then constitutes a “couple”? Commitment? What constitutes commitment?

A pandora’s box, when one gets away from Church teachings.

Not really. Let the government regulate contracts and civil affairs and let the Church regulate those that pertain to God.

“Render onto Caesar…” and all that.

 

[DailyBread]

The fundemental problem that is not being addressed here is the issue that homosexual couples cannot participate in nuptial love as two married heterosexual couples can. The word love is thrown around too often in these debates without really defining it. It is taken for granted that a homosexual act is love because its something accepted by two consenting adults. Well two consenting adults can do a lot of things together that we would not call love; (ie self inject each other with illegal drugs, or another help a depressed one commit suicide, or prostitution); so that definition fails to define love (if your comeback is that such activities are illegal, I will kindly remind you in recent history, sodomy was a crime, so were homosexuals at the time, not loving each other?!).

When you look at love (which homosexuals can share in in the sense of friendship as any friends can… so not saying their is no love), it is between to people, and each makes a sacrifice, to give a gift to the other that is a good which that one lacks without the other giving it. Ultimately the relationship is based on selfless motives and not more for alterior motives. The gift itself must be something that the other does not have on their own (for instance if you own a copy of a dvd, your friend giving you a copy of that same dvd that they know you have does not constitute itself as a gift).

Now there are many types of love, mother child, siblings, friends, ect, and each have a unique character to them based upon the exchange of gifts. In the nuptial love (married love), the gift of one’s body in a sexual manner is that gift (no other loving relationship is this manner). Now in the gift of this body is the inherent sexual nature of the body, male and female, and the gift and reception of the body in a sexual manner. In this union is revealed God himself for God made humans in his likeness, male and female. This gift of there complete bodies (recieving of genitals in the embrace and transmission of sexual germ cells or sex cells) is a gift of their sex(female and male) which is longed for as seen in Genesis for only when united together male and female is God’s likeness revealed. Essentially male longs for the female nature and female the male nature. This wholeness is resting in the nature of God (why God rested on the seventh day and why Adam and Eve consumated their marriage on the seventh day).

In a homosexual sexual act, again there is that longing (if you really speak to a homosexual male, they talk about longing to pull into themselves that male nature). The problem and reason why this is distorted is that they already have the maleness inside of them. It is like the dvd example. A person with a copy of a particular dvd does not need multiple copies of that dvd… what they need is a complimentary dvd player to watch that dvd. Unfortunately they cannot see this distortion and search to receive this maleness… in fact many have severals and several partners throughout their lives trying to obtain certain male characteristics within them. The problem is that they will never truly be happy because this is not a gift they are lacking… they truly are male, but through a bio/psycho/social issue they cannot see that (like other certian psychiatric disorders such as OCD or others that suffer from unshakeable distortions). This pursuit never ultimately gives them peace… they feel they are lacking.

As has been shown, the flaw in homosexual marriage is that a homosexual act does not satisfy the requirements of nuptial love. What we need to encourage for individuals who suffer from this (and it can be a life long battle with carrying this cross) is to seek out the True Man, that can really make them a man, as Pilate said, “ecche homo”- behold the Man! Courage is a wonderful group that helps Catholic homosexuals find beauty and dignity in serving God and others through chaste relationships. They may still suffer from these distortions as all people carrying a cross suffer, but through prayer and encouragement, we can help them achieve true peace and join in the one and final nuptial union of God with His people. Homosexual marriage will only continue to sell them a lie that they are lacking in something they are not and continue an endless pursuit of something they can not achieve through homosexual relationships.

Love is not whatever we make it to be, but Who God is… if you need more direction in understanding the true philisophical nature of Love, Love and Responsibility by JPII will help you see what love really is.

 

[v3orb]

I think is ridiculous when people think that homosexuals playing house are in the same kind of relationship as a heterosexual married couple. Its just childish.

That statement is extremely insulting on so many levels. That’s a childish statement about a topic you obviously know little about.

In a homosexual sexual act, again there is that longing (if you really speak to a homosexual male, they talk about longing to pull into themselves that male nature). The problem and reason why this is distorted is that they already have the maleness inside of them. It is like the dvd example. A person with a copy of a particular dvd does not need multiple copies of that dvd… what they need is a complimentary dvd player to watch that dvd. Unfortunately they cannot see this distortion and search to receive this maleness… in fact many have severals and several partners throughout their lives trying to obtain certain male characteristics within them. The problem is that they will never truly be happy because this is not a gift they are lacking… they truly are male, but through a bio/psycho/social issue they cannot see that (like other certian psychiatric disorders such as OCD or others that suffer from unshakeable distortions). This pursuit never ultimately gives them peace… they feel they are lacking.

As has been shown, the flaw in homosexual marriage is that a homosexual act does not satisfy the requirements of nuptial love. What we need to encourage for individuals who suffer from this (and it can be a life long battle with carrying this cross) is to seek out the True Man, that can really make them a man, as Pilate said, “ecche homo”- behold the Man! Courage is a wonderful group that helps Catholic homosexuals find beauty and dignity in serving God and others through chaste relationships. They may still suffer from these distortions as all people carrying a cross suffer, but through prayer and encouragement, we can help them achieve true peace and join in the one and final nuptial union of God with His people. Homosexual marriage will only continue to sell them a lie that they are lacking in something they are not and continue an endless pursuit of something they can not achieve through homosexual relationships.

I don’t know if you know any gay men or women, but your comments are seriously distorted even at first glance, especially the ones in bold.

 

[East_and_West]

That statement is extremely insulting on so many levels. That’s a childish statement about a topic you obviously know little about.

Perhaps you should think before you speak. I suffer from Same Sex Attraction and I used to live the gay life style myself. I think I know better than you think what I am talking about!

 

[feetxxxl]

how is it that if paul says in christ, we are no longer under the law but grace. we are credited with no righteousness for following the law. and under the new covenant we are not led by the law in the same way as in the old covenant , not having the old relationship to the written code, but are now led by the spirit.

that being the case do you think the directives that paul and jesus gave us were to be turned into more laws, so that we could die to them also and be resurrected in christ.

consider that directives given were to be measured thru living the three commandments: loving god, loving your neighbor as yourself. and loving one another as christ loved us.

jesus said you will recognize them by their fruits,… fruits being fruit of the spirit(gal5). paul said that loving ones neighbor as oneself was the summation of all the law.

therefore what are the fruits of homosexual bonding so that you would know that homosexuals bonding is not equal to heterosexual bonding.

my understanding is that both bondings are motivated by mutual love, attraction, devotion, trust, and respect for a shared committed life together.
and that no homosexual has ever been found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. they are not less a brother, neighbor, counselor, lawyer, teacher, friend etc.

and what is the essence of homosexual bonding so that it would come against loving ones neighbor as oneself?

first of all before so can assume that paul really was referring to homosexuals in 1cor and 1tim you have to explain how the greek compound word( example… ladykiller) " malebed" (translated in english) means homosexual. and how can an inanimate object be translated into a person?

then please have explain in romans1(24-27) what truth was exchanged for what lie, and how and in what way, was what entity of creation worshipped and served, so that certain individuals were given (your understanding) over to homosexuality.

explain also what the term “their women” means since homosexuals dont have any women. how is it you are able to credit all homosexual bonding to be shame based, lust ridden relationships(niv)

 

[DailyBread]

I don’t know if you know any gay men or women, but your comments are seriously distorted even at first glance, especially the ones in bold.
Yes I do. The problem is that people make statements about their lives that do not correspond to what they are truly feeling. If you do get to the heart of what homosexuals are feeling, they do feel like they are lacking masculinity (focused more on male homosexuality is this discussion)- I have heard gay men talk about wanting to drink up other men, so yes I do know this to be a very strong craving for them. And yes they do tend to suffer higher degrees of psychiatric disease even in countries where homosexuality is just as acceptable as heterosexuality.

What people need to realize is that the media distorts the truth on this subject. If you follow evidence based medicine, you will find the opposite of what they say. Even things that are wrong offer some fleeting pleasure. The quickest way to make an OCD person happy is to allow them to follow there compulsions. It is a life long struggle for them not to, but many with time do improve and find a greater sense of peace than following a compulsion that is fleeting.

But everything I said about turning towards Christ and living chastely is liberating and Courage is an excellent ministry that prooves this to be the case. I pray you and others may see this truth.
narth.com/index.html

 

[DailyBread]

Perhaps you should think before you speak. I suffer from Same Sex Attraction and I used to live the gay life style myself. I think I know better than you think what I am talking about!

My brother, I commend you for trusting in the Lord. Obviously the world has distorted the truth about the homosexual lifestyle as well as scripture from the previous statement post. God bless you in your continued witness of the truth and may the peace of Christ be with you always.

 

[justinthemartyr]

its called seperation of church and state. the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

homosexuals have not been found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. they are not less a brother,doctor, counselor, friend, pastor, soldier…etc

homosexuals bond out of mutual love, attraction, respect, devotion, and trust for a shared committed life together, the same as heterosexuals.

and guess what …scripture has never said homosexuality was a sin.

The pursuit of happiness does not include the degredation of a society. This would be like saying that “because it makes me happy, i am going to marry my dog, and have marital relations with the dog, who is my spouse”. This is how mundane and unnatural homosexual acts are and the attempt to call a so-called “union” of two homosexuals “marriage”.

The natural law and science itself cries out against homosexual acts.

Place 1 million homosexual couples on and island with everything they need to survive, and in 100 years, what do you have? 1million dead homosexual couples.

Place only TEN heterosexual couples on that same island, chosen at random(some sterile, some not) and in only TEN years, what do you have? A flourishing village, growing already by leaps and bounds.

homosexual acts=unnatural, nonproductive (scientifically speaking)
heterosexual marital act=life giving, reproductive(scientifically speaking)

 

[feetxxxl]

I don’t know if you know any gay men or women, but your comments are seriously distorted even at first glance, especially the ones in bold.

Yes I do. The problem is that people make statements about their lives that do not correspond to what they are truly feeling. If you do get to the heart of what homosexuals are feeling, they do feel like they are lacking masculinity (focused more on male homosexuality is this discussion)- I have heard gay men talk about wanting to drink up other men, so yes I do know this to be a very strong craving for them. And yes they do tend to suffer higher degrees of psychiatric disease even in countries where homosexuality is just as acceptable as heterosexuality.

What people need to realize is that the media distorts the truth on this subject. If you follow evidence based medicine, you will find the opposite of what they say. Even things that are wrong offer some fleeting pleasure. The quickest way to make an OCD person happy is to allow them to follow there compulsions. It is a life long struggle for them not to, but many with time do improve and find a greater sense of peace than following a compulsion that is fleeting.

But everything I said about turning towards Christ and living chastely is liberating and Courage is an excellent ministry that prooves this to be the case. I pray you and others may see this truth.
narth.com/index.html

are you that blind? have you already forgotten what you have heard from groups of heterosexual males about women or a certain woman in locker rooms, gyms, on internet sites, etc. how do certain comments spoken by certain individuals speak for the 12 million in this country and 320 million worldwide. if you heard degrading comments from persons of a certain ethnic would you make the assumption that this the same for all of the same ethnic.

sounds like you need to take the log out of your own heterosexual eye.

certainly you realize that sexual promiscuity is the antithesis of human bonding.

 

[feetxxxl]

The pursuit of happiness does not include the degredation of a society. This would be like saying that “because it makes me happy, i am going to marry my dog, and have marital relations with the dog, who is my spouse”. This is how mundane and unnatural homosexual acts are and the attempt to call a so-called “union” of two homosexuals “marriage”.

The natural law and science itself cries out against homosexual acts.

Place 1 million homosexual couples on and island with everything they need to survive, and in 100 years, what do you have? 1million dead homosexual couples.

Place only TEN heterosexual couples on that same island, chosen at random(some sterile, some not) and in only TEN years, what do you have? A flourishing village, growing already by leaps and bounds.

homosexual acts=unnatural, nonproductive (scientifically speaking)
heterosexual marital act=life giving, reproductive(scientifically speaking)

how do you equate mutual bonding of two individuals motivated by mutual love, attraction, devotion,and trust who who were created thru the spirit of christ whom god has written his laws of life on their hearts and put then in their minds with someone obsessed with abusing animals?

 

[DailyBread]

You seemingly do not address any particular comments that I mentioned in your post here and I am sorry to say I am having trouble seeing what your post is about. If you are sensing I am blind, please address it with some actual research. I agree that promiscuity is the antithesis of bonding so I do not know what you mean there (and research backs up the fact that a majoirty of homosexuals are much more promiscuous; in fact fidelity to them is more emotional than sexual).

My issue is you already assume a homosexual act to be an act of love, yet there lies the problem I believe since many do not have a coherent and clear definition of what love is… some say doing stuff that makes others happy… well in a previous post I think I offer valid counter arguments to suggest that not to be a valid definiton.

 

[Kolbe300]

This would be like saying that “because it makes me happy, i am going to marry my dog, and have marital relations with the dog, who is my spouse”. This is how mundane and unnatural homosexual acts are and the attempt to call a so-called “union” of two homosexuals “marriage”.

Shouldn’t we, as Catholics, stop to think about what we say before we say it? You have just compared human beings, many of whom are struggling and searching, to someone wanting to marry and have sex with a dog. There exists not even an ounce of charity in that.

Place 1 million homosexual couples on and island with everything they need to survive, and in 100 years, what do you have? 1million dead homosexual couples.

Place 1 million heterosexual men on an island and you’ll have the same result. Is this really the reason the Church wants to help homosexual persons find chastity? The Island theory?

Charity people, charity. We all need to remember that, myself included.

Peace.

 

[Kitteh]

The pursuit of happiness does not include the degredation of a society. This would be like saying that “because it makes me happy, i am going to marry my dog, and have marital relations with the dog, who is my spouse”. This is how mundane and unnatural homosexual acts are and the attempt to call a so-called “union” of two homosexuals “marriage”.

Since when was it appropriate to compare human beings with dogs?

Believe it or not, there ARE homosexual couples who really DO love each other very deeply. Many would be willing to lay down their life for the other. Isn’t that what God wants us to do? Isn’t that what he says love is?

 

[feetxxxl]

how is it that if paul says in christ, we are no longer under the law but grace. we are credited with no righteousness for following the law. and under the new covenant we are not led by the law in the same way as in the old covenant , not having the old relationship to the written code, but are now led by the spirit.

that being the case do you think the directives that paul and jesus gave us were to be turned into more laws, so that we could die to them also and be resurrected in christ.

consider that directives given were to be measured thru living the three commandments: loving god, loving your neighbor as yourself. and loving one another as christ loved us.

jesus said you will recognize them by their fruits,… fruits being fruit of the spirit(gal5). paul said that loving ones neighbor as oneself was the summation of all the law.

therefore what are the fruits of homosexual bonding so that you would know that homosexuals bonding is not equal to heterosexual bonding.

my understanding is that both bondings are motivated by mutual love, attraction, devotion, trust, and respect for a shared committed life together.
and that no homosexual has ever been found wanting in any sector of society compared to heterosexuals. they are not less a brother, neighbor, counselor, lawyer, teacher, friend etc.

and what is the essence of homosexual bonding so that it would come against loving ones neighbor as oneself?

first of all before so can assume that paul really was referring to homosexuals in 1cor and 1tim you have to explain how the greek compound word( example… ladykiller) " malebed" (translated in english) means homosexual. and how can an inanimate object be translated into a person?

then please have explain in romans1(24-27) what truth was exchanged for what lie, and how and in what way, was what entity of creation worshipped and served, so that certain individuals were given (your understanding) over to homosexuality.

explain also what the term “their women” means since homosexuals dont have any women. how is it you are able to credit all homosexual bonding to be shame based, lust ridden relationships(niv)

 

[feetxxxl]

You seemingly do not address any particular comments that I mentioned in your post here and I am sorry to say I am having trouble seeing what your post is about. If you are sensing I am blind, please address it with some actual research. I agree that promiscuity is the antithesis of bonding so I do not know what you mean there (and research backs up the fact that a majoirty of homosexuals are much more promiscuous; in fact fidelity to them is more emotional than sexual).

My issue is you already assume a homosexual act to be an act of love, yet there lies the problem I believe since many do not have a coherent and clear definition of what love is… some say doing stuff that makes others happy… well in a previous post I think I offer valid counter arguments to suggest that not to be a valid definiton.

could you explain how heterosexuals bond, so that we can have plumb line for comparison.

i attend a mcc church regularly, i attend their small groups. i fellowship in worship. i also attend an episcopal church that i have been attending for 20 years, where i first gave my life to christ. in truth there is no difference in the integrity of the worship. and for the record, the episcopal church still refuses to embrace homosexuals on any level.

if you want numbers. have you calculated how many gay couples who legally been allowed to marry would have to be divorced to even come close the 50% numbers of heterosexuals. do you see a trend in that direction?

sanctity of heterosexual marriage. at www.christianpost.com (a right leaning website.) an article was recently posted “Study: Christian Divorce Rate Identical to National Average”…you can probably google it . its interesting that heterosexual weddings performed under some kind of christian ritual has resulted in as many divorces as heterosexual marriages performed in a las vegas environment, before justices of the peace or judges or even under common law requirements.

of all the instances of behavior you have witnessed to make you believe that you are giving a true, rather than false witness of homosexuals, what percentage are they of the 12 million that live in this country. the mcc church has a congregation of 400. would you say you have personnally witnessed 400 homosexuals?

 

[DailyBread]

Well first of all, I am noit sure where you get your 12 million from (Kinsey’s research has been debunked).
geocities.com/frjimlloyd/SinofSodom.htm
A good article about Sodom I found.
I have not been personally known 400 homosexuals, but comes from readings and discussions with people that work with homosexuals and people who have done research on behavior… I try to practice evidenced based medicine when it comes to seeing truth, not merely anecdotal stories.
Heterosexual relations I discuss earlier in a post along with a definition of love, basically I get at the heart of conjugal love-Theology of the Body (a good resource even if episcopilian to read I might add, along with Love and Responsibility).
In response to your point on divorce rates, I would ask you to rate that number to ultimately that of NFP users… as you can see the general acceptance of seeing pleasure as the ultimate good for sex and not being to open to life distort the goods of marriage and this distortion allows selfishness to enter the relationship. Now some may say, well NFP users are just people who do not believe in divorce, but if you look at the evidence again, you actually find many of them quite happy, and not even seeking divorce.
So I ultimately take issue with contraceptive sex just as much almost as homosexual sex for the same reason… they do not fulfill nuptial love as I discussed in an earlier post. Pleasure in itself is not a gift… I mean we can pleasure ourselves without someone else, so pleasure is a good in the context of its relationship to the gift of bodies by spouses in a nuptial embrace.
Finally, if we look at fidelity, we still see evidence to show that homosexuals on average have more partners than heterosexuals.

Finally I would like to add that I hope these discussions do not get mean spirited. I do not hate homosexuals (just disagree with the lifestyle that some choose and others support), and we all have our own fallness and weakness, but yet we must strive for the perfection that Christ taught… instructing others on the ways of truth is a spiritual work of mercy… yes I am aware of my own beams in my eye, but I work daily with Christ to remove them, but we are a community of believers who must struggle to help each other with all our beams (why St. Paul had to be harsh with various congregations at times because they fell away from truth, but he still boasted in his weakness).

Again I see through philosophical understanding of nuptial love, a failure of the homosexual act to fulfill the requirements to qualify it as nuptial love and therefore warrant homosexual marriage.

 

[feetxxxl]

i have no understanding of NFP. or your context what you are attempting to say in using it.

surely you cannot not consider narth anything that even resembles narth. and anything from the vatican is to maintain the status quo.

so that leaves your personal witness which you have not expressed

so that leaves basically leaves us to reason.
do you understand what a bonded relationship is? are you familiar on what scripture says about the importance of sex in bonded relationships?

 

[v3orb]

are you that blind? have you already forgotten what you have heard from groups of heterosexual males about women or a certain woman in locker rooms, gyms, on internet sites, etc. how do certain comments spoken by certain individuals speak for the 12 million in this country and 320 million worldwide. if you heard degrading comments from persons of a certain ethnic would you make the assumption that this the same for all of the same ethnic.

sounds like you need to take the log out of your own heterosexual eye.

certainly you realize that sexual promiscuity is the antithesis of human bonding.

What are you arguing against here?