homosexual marriage

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Hokomai said:
…and it is the efforts to block homosexuals forming secure families that find most disturbing about the Catholic position…
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Just to clarify - in what way is the Church preventing homosexuals from forming secure families?
 
stewstew03 said:
Just to clarify - in what way is the Church preventing homosexuals from forming secure families?
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The Catholic position of opposing both civil unions and marriage for homosexuals couples adds a lack of recognition and respect to an already socially-disadvantaged pairing. In my opinion this makes the homosexual families less stable. Of course I recognise that the church seeks not only instablity of such relationships, but dissolution, but i do not.
 
stewstew03 said:
Just to clarify - in what way is the Church preventing homosexuals from forming secure families?
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Hokomai said:
The Catholic position of opposing both civil unions and marriage for homosexuals couples adds a lack of recognition and respect to an already socially-disadvantaged pairing. In my opinion this makes the homosexual families less stable
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stewstew03 asked about preventing homosexual persons from forming stable families and Hokomai answered about making same-sexed couples into such.

Thank God some Catholics are taking up my point that homosexual persons have legally and canonically as good an access to marriage as anyone else. Marriage as in Christian marriage, one man, one woman, of course.

That sometimes or nowadays even often their homosexuality stops them from profiting from the offer is quite another question.
 
Love for homosexuals is one thing. Love of homosexuality is something entirely different.

Christians are to be firm in condemning sin, such as homosexuality. Christians are not to be swayed like branches in the wind. Fasting and prayer is our guiding star. We do not have a gallop-poll mentality. We do not obtain our beliefs from the media. The assumption that Christians need to conform to the rest of society is a clever move. It kills the transformation of society toward love. It encourages division, and even divides families.

Jesus calls us to love, not human love, but God’s love. What is love, if not salvation? One obtains salvation by obedience. Practicing homosexuality is not practicing obedience. Practicing homosexuality does not lead to God’s love. On a biblical level God has a resolute message for settling opinions. WE ARE TO LOVE ALL MEN WITHOUT CONDENSATION, BUT FIRM IN CONDEMNING SIN, SUCH AS HOMOSEXUALITY.

Opinions divide the world. The statement, “You are entitled to your opinion,” is just a continuation of that division. Jesus came to settle opinions and to unite us. Jesus taught us to be “of one mind and one heart.” Jesus’ words settle what opinions we should have about much of life. Word games aimed at division and separation do not make society one.
 
ACCT;9328135]
Love for homosexuals is one thing. Love of homosexuality is something entirely different.
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Christians are to be firm in condemning sin, such as homosexuality. Christians are not to be swayed like branches in the wind. Fasting and prayer is our guiding star. We do not have a gallop-poll mentality. We do not obtain our beliefs from the media. The assumption that Christians need to conform to the rest of society is a clever move. It kills the transformation of society toward love. It encourages division, and even divides families.
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I am certainly not asking Christians to conform to the rest of society. I am asking them to stop the use of law to force others to conform to their views
Jesus calls us to love, not human love, but God’s love. What is love, if not salvation? One obtains salvation by obedience. Practicing homosexuality is not practicing obedience. Practicing homosexuality does not lead to God’s love. On a biblical level God has a resolute message for settling opinions. WE ARE TO LOVE ALL MEN WITHOUT CONDENSATION, BUT FIRM IN CONDEMNING SIN, SUCH AS HOMOSEXUALITY.
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Far be it from me to make fun of a typo, but I greatly enjoyed the concept of ‘loving men without condensation’. Steamy sex indeed!
Opinions divide the world. The statement, “You are entitled to your opinion,” is just a continuation of that division. Jesus came to settle opinions and to unite us. Jesus taught us to be “of one mind and one heart.” Jesus’ words settle what opinions we should have about much of life. Word games aimed at division and separation do not make society one.
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That sounds easy. What exactly were Jesus’ words about homosexual marriage?
 
InSearchofGrace said:
Anyway, you may be materially comfortable and well off in your temporal life, but reason should lead you to want to be a sunflower instead of a thistle.

I have nothing further to add except a hope that you take care, that in the end you don’t completely lose an invincible ignorance defense.
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Well, I fear that defense may not be open to me should I turn out to have drawn the wrong conclusions, and you to have drawn the right ones. The best I will be able to say is that I have tried to discipline myself to treat the views of others with respect, while not hiding my own, or pretending to belief I do not hold. I am not always successful, but draw a bit of inspiration from Catholic teaching about respect for persons and their reputation. That, if you are right, will not not be enough, and if I am right I will not get to post an ‘I told you so’!.
 
InSearchofGrace said:
Materialism and pleasuring of self convinced many to forget what is real. Even if we have become accustomed to a comfortable 70 degrees in our homes, offices, and cars, the forces outside can’t be controlled. The world would still be too cold or too hot for comfort during different times of the day and the seasons. Man somehow forgot what is real.
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Perhaps oddly, I sort of agree. Of course I see evidence only that there is nothing but matter and you might call me a materialist on that basis. But even the arch-materialist Karl Marx was able to say that religion is ‘the heart of heartless world, the spirit of spiritless conditions’. Humans in my view do themselves harm if they see themselves simply or predominately as consumers or their relationships as exchanges. Understanding ourselves as social animals is essential to our personal well-being. The sort of materialism you describe fails us in this. I guess that is another reason why I hope that religious objections to personal sexual practice are put aside in favour of support for positive human relationships.
 
Hokomai said:
ACCT;9328135]

I am certainly not asking Christians to conform to the rest of society. I am asking them to stop the use of law to force others to conform to their views

Far be it from me to make fun of a typo, but I greatly enjoyed the concept of ‘loving men without condensation’. Steamy sex indeed!

That sounds easy. What exactly were Jesus’ words about homosexual marriage?
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"Gay msrriage" is no marriage at all! It takes a male and a female to have a marriage. All you have is a civil cohabitation contract. Practicing homosexuality is a sin. That has been and will always be. It is the homosexuals that have to repent, not the Catholic Church.

We are under God’s judgment because of the sins of abortion, homosexuality, etc. We are close to God’s time of attitude adjustment, also known as the 10 chastisements (purification). What God cannot purify, He will destroy, just as He did in the Old Testament.

Who is right? Where is truth?

People today base their relative truth on opinions, and their opinions are based on feelings. There are millions of variations of relative truth. The logic goes something like this: Your truth is relative. It has to do with your circumstances. Your truth is related to you personally. It may not be related to the lifestyle others.

People say you must be informed. We are told that you must educate yourself so that you can know the issues, and how to form your opinions. There are many people believing differently, however, and they all believe their beliefs are right. They base their beliefs on their own relative truth.

Society is guided by all of these different relative truths. Society thinks that everyone must live by his own truths. All of these different relative truths are based on nothing more than what a person feels.

There is no absolute truth in today’s world. There are many relative truths, however. Since there are no absolutes, there are many things that you can believe. You can believe this way, or you can believe that way. This is the belief system of most people in society today.

People are led by their feelings. Their actions are erratic. For example, **a person can live an abominable life-style that is contrary to God’s natural law. However, he sees himself living by a convention or standard which he views as normal. One living in degradation might say, “I am a good person. I would never commit murder. After all, those things are wrong!” However, the person saying this is practicing an abomination! **
 
Hokomai said:
Well, I fear that defense may not be open to me should I turn out to have drawn the wrong conclusions, and you to have drawn the right ones. The best I will be able to say is that I have tried to discipline myself to treat the views of others with respect, while not hiding my own, or pretending to belief I do not hold. I am not always successful, but draw a bit of inspiration from Catholic teaching about respect for persons and their reputation. That, if you are right, will not not be enough, and if I am right I will not get to post an ‘I told you so’!.
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Here is a good essay:

The pitfalls of compassion
 
Hokomai said:
The Catholic position of opposing both civil unions and marriage for homosexuals couples adds a lack of recognition and respect to an already socially-disadvantaged pairing. In my opinion this makes the homosexual families less stable. Of course I recognise that the church seeks not only instablity of such relationships, but dissolution, but i do not.
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Homosexual couples can adopt without being married, so I’m not convinced. Why do you assert non-Christians need a Christian institution in order to have family stability?

But you raise another very important point - this isn’t so much about civil unions or marital contracts; it’s about forcing society to recognize homosexuality as completely legitimate and morally equivalent to heterosexuality. This is about de-legitimizing scripture, and the belief that homosexuality is a sin. This is about eroding God’s truth to the point where scripture is emptied of it’s meaning. This is about turning Christ-lovers into Hate-mongers. This is about turning the tide against the idea that homosexuality is a “sin” into something that should be “celebrated” with pride…!

[BIBLEDRB]Romans 1:26-27[/BIBLEDRB]
 
stewstew03 said:
Homosexual couples can adopt without being married, so I’m not convinced. Why do you assert non-Christians need a Christian institution in order to have family stability?

But you raise another very important point - this isn’t so much about civil unions or marital contracts; it’s about forcing society to recognize homosexuality as completely legitimate and morally equivalent to heterosexuality. This is about de-legitimizing scripture, and the belief that homosexuality is a sin. This is about eroding God’s truth to the point where scripture is emptied of it’s meaning. This is about turning Christ-lovers into Hate-mongers. This is about turning the tide against the idea that homosexuality is a “sin” into something that should be “celebrated” with pride…!

[bibledrb]Romans 1:26-27[/bibledrb]
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I did not think Christians invented marriage, or owned it in any way. I for one do not want to live in a society ruled by scripture. I’m against genocide for one thing.
 
ACCT said:
We are under God’s judgment because of the sins of abortion, homosexuality, etc. We are close to God’s time of attitude adjustment, also known as the 10 chastisements (purification). What God cannot purify, He will destroy, just as He did in the Old Testament.

Who is right? Where is truth?
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Well if there is a God, and he intends to kill and inflict pain and misery on the innocent, even those innocent of the things to which he objects then God is certainly not right, and is certainly expressing no truth worthy of the name.
 
Hokomai said:
Well** if there is a God**, and he intends to kill and inflict pain and misery on the innocent, even those innocent of the things to which he objects then God is certainly not right, and is certainly expressing no truth worthy of the name./QUOTE]

The onus is on you, not God. People rail against God’s laws, especially sins against sexual purity, because they (e.g. honosexuals) are the ones who want to commit sins of impurity!

If God really exists then it is absurd to say that He is one thing to one group of people and then one thing to another group of people, or one thing in one century and another thing in another century. This is comparable to saying that 2+2=4 on Monday but not on Friday. (I call this creative accounting.) Is this progress? Progress needs a fixed term.

*“There are three possible kinds of God; the god of one’s own ego, in which the atheist believes, and which is also the god of modern Confucianism; the god of nature, of stone and gold and silver, which belonged to the old religions of idolatry; and the Supreme God, who made both man and nature, and redeemed them both upon the Cross.”

**“Those who tell us that they deny the existence of God are merely substituting one god for another ***(Sheen).”
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ACCT said:
"Gay msrriage" is no marriage at all! It takes a male and a female to have a marriage. All you have is a civil cohabitation contract. Practicing homosexuality is a sin. That has been and will always be. It is the homosexuals that have to repent, not the Catholic Church.
**
We are under God’s judgment because of the sins of abortion, homosexuality, etc. We are close to God’s time of attitude adjustment, also known as the 10 chastisements (purification). What God cannot purify, He will destroy, just as He did in the Old Testament.**
Who is right? Where is truth?

People today base their relative truth on opinions, and their opinions are based on feelings. There are millions of variations of relative truth. The logic goes something like this: Your truth is relative. It has to do with your circumstances. Your truth is related to you personally. It may not be related to the lifestyle others.

People say you must be informed. We are told that you must educate yourself so that you can know the issues, and how to form your opinions. There are many people believing differently, however, and they all believe their beliefs are right. They base their beliefs on their own relative truth.

Society is guided by all of these different relative truths. Society thinks that everyone must live by his own truths. All of these different relative truths are based on nothing more than what a person feels.

There is no absolute truth in today’s world. There are many relative truths, however. Since there are no absolutes, there are many things that you can believe. You can believe this way, or you can believe that way. This is the belief system of most people in society today.

People are led by their feelings. Their actions are erratic. For example, **a person can live an abominable life-style that is contrary to God’s natural law. However, he sees himself living by a convention or standard which he views as normal. One living in degradation might say, “I am a good person. I would never commit murder. After all, those things are wrong!” However, the person saying this is practicing an abomination! **
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Your posting suggests that you have been listening to too much Dispensationalism, Pat Robertson, and other negative sooth sayers…🙂
 
Hokomai said:
Well if there is a God, and he intends to kill and inflict pain and misery on the innocent, even those innocent of the things to which he objects then God is certainly not right, and is certainly expressing no truth worthy of the name.
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When one goes to the surgeon does he ask that only a part of the tumor be removed?
 
anrmenchaca47 said:
Sure its possible…but it doesn’t make it right.
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I agree absolutely. But it does make claims about the wrongness of homosexual sex because no descendants result (note careful phrasing to avoid ‘open to life’ discussions) incorrect. That was the point I was making.
 
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