homosexual marriage

[Hokomai]

??? What are you talking about? You don’t have to be in a homosexual “marriage” nor a regular marriage to leave your property via a Will to someone, nor give them power of attorney, or direction over your healthcare if you become incapacitated. All this can be done regardless of sex/gender and sexual orientation or relationship status (unless you are married or have kids, because then most states don’t allow you to completely disinherit a spouse or kids). So I do not know how letting people do any of those things have to do with “formal cooperation.” Again, if someone is the legal guardian of a child then they are notified if the child is sick at school, (maybe 2 brothers/sisters gained legal custody of a niece/nephew after the death of their sibling), it again has nothing to do with formal cooperation of a unjust law.

Now for some of the other things, indeed, Catholic adoption agencies have closed down, and businesses and some Catholic entities have stopped provided spousal benefits at all, because of these same sex marriage laws. I know that a few individuals in key government positions (those who issued marriage licenses) quit after the NY state “marriage” law passed.

In all jurisdictions in which homosexuals unions have legal recognition, it has consequences for the status of the partners, by virtue of the union. The church has asked people not no cooperate with this. I am asking how many have followed the Church teaching, and predicted “not many”. the situations you describe are not a result of a legal homosexual union. They are a result of other civil contracts. They are not what the Church, and I, are talking about.

 

[jilly4ski]

In all jurisdictions in which homosexuals unions have legal recognition, it has consequences for the status of the partners, by virtue of the union. The church has asked people not no cooperate with this. I am asking how many have followed the Church teaching, and predicted “not many”. the situations you describe are not a result of a legal homosexual union. They are a result of other civil contracts. They are not what the Church, and I, are talking about.

Then why did you bring them up?

And I gave you examples in the US, though not cited with news articles, you are perfectly capable of looking them up yourself.

 

[Hokomai]

Then why did you bring them up?

And I gave you examples in the US, though not cited with news articles, you are perfectly capable of looking them up yourself.

Umm - we are misunderstanding each other I think. I am talking about the consequences of homosexual unions registered or recognised by the state. You are talking about the consequences of individuals entering into other sorts of contract. The things I am talking about are the things the Church is talking about. The things you are talking about are not addressed in the church teaching cited earlier.

The Church tells its faithful (and every else) not to cooperate in the recognition of homosexual unions. I am asking how many in practice do that. And I am talking around the world (not just in the US, which appears to be your point of reference).

I am simply responding to the official Church teaching and asking Catholics “how’s it going?” How about telling me?

 

[jilly4ski]

Umm - we are misunderstanding each other I think. I am talking about the consequences of homosexual unions registered or recognised by the state. You are talking about the consequences of individuals entering into other sorts of contract. The things I am talking about are the things the Church is talking about. The things you are talking about are not addressed in the church teaching cited earlier.

The Church tells its faithful (and every else) not to cooperate in the recognition of homosexual unions. I am asking how many in practice do that. And I am talking around the world (not just in the US, which appears to be your point of reference).

I am simply responding to the official Church teaching and asking Catholics “how’s it going?” How about telling me?

Can you tell me what the practical differences are in administering an estate where a will is in place and where the property passes intestate and how that would affect a Catholic lawyer, other court personnel, or administrator?

Can you tell me what the practical differences are in registering next of kin at a hospital (if they even do this anymore, isn’t it normally just and emergency contact?) and registering an emergency contact or healthcare director/power of attorney regardless of how that person is related?

Can you tell me the practical difference to the person calling the legal guardian of a sick child, regardless of who that guardian is?

etc. etc. etc.

I will give you a hint, there is no difference. The privilege has been given, whether by operation of law (marriage) or by contractual rights. To the person making the phone call or filling out the form, there is no difference, and they cannot always know or determine how one received such privileges. (This of course excludes things like adoption, actual marriage registration etc).

And why does it matter how many people are following it, that doesn’t make the teaching wrong.

Again, I told of you that some NY “city registrars” resigned, and the Catholic adoption agencies stopped doing business (IL and one other state), and some Catholic entities/businesses (in D.C I think) stopped offering spousal benefits at all (health insurance). And as I said, I have no knowledge if this teaching is being followed outside of the US, but again, truth does not rest on popularity.

 

[Hokomai]

Can you tell me what the practical differences are in administering an estate where a will is in place and where the property passes intestate and how that would affect a Catholic lawyer, other court personnel, or administrator?
None. Unless the will is challenged. In which case, I see by Church teaching that a catholic lawyer could not in conscience argue the existence of a homosexual civil union to vary the will. In the case where there is no will, in most jurisdictions property will pass to the civil union partner.

Can you tell me what the practical differences are in registering next of kin at a hospital (if they even do this anymore, isn’t it normally just and emergency contact?) and registering an emergency contact or healthcare director/power of attorney regardless of how that person is related?

Depends on hospital policy. Where I live it matters a lot.

Can you tell me the practical difference to the person calling the legal guardian of a sick child, regardless of who that guardian is?

Civil union partners become guardians by virtue of the civil union. Presumably the school’s Catholic administrator could not call them in good conscience.

.

 

[ACCT]

ACCT,

You do realize that Jews look for signs and Gentiles look for miracles. When you read the NT you will see in the writings when there is a suggestion of signs this is to garner the interest of the Jewish audience. Since I am Gentile at heart I am more for miracles.

Salvation comes in stages as you know. It is not a one time process. But on the other hand, If you ask me to, I mean…do I hear an Amen…do I hear a prayer…can the brothers out there jump, can you shout…and you are wondering…and you are asking…do I have it in me…now…now…now is the time…don’t wait…and I say…turn from your sorrowful ways…and I say…amen, amen…brother…do you hear me, brother…ahh

Ok…I will work on it…

Even the Catholic Church will not say that the alleged apparitions at Medjugore are “worthy of belief” until many years after the apparitions cease, and there are many documented miracles, etc. However,** I have seen the “miracle of the sun” with my own eyes,** and I have talked to skeptics like Dale Brown, former LSU basketball coach, who has told me of the miracles that he experienced.

Time is short. My guess is that we all will experience God in a profound way, perhaps as Paul did on his way to Damascus.

**The chastisements will begin after the last visionary receives the 10th secret. ** Most of the visionaries have already received all 10 secrets. Only a couple of the visionaries have received 9 of the secrets.

 

[Hokomai]

Even the Catholic Church will not say that the alleged apparitions at Medjugore are “worthy of belief” until many years after the apparitions cease, and there are many documented miracles, etc. However,** I have seen the “miracle of the sun” with my own eyes,** and I have talked to skeptics like Dale Brown, former LSU basketball coach, who has told me of the miracles that he experienced.

Time is short. My guess is that we all will experience God in a profound way, perhaps as Paul did on his way to Damascus.

**The chastisements will begin after the last visionary receives the 10th secret. ** Most of the visionaries have already received all 10 secrets. Only a couple of the visionaries have received 9 of the secrets.

It is sad that homosexuals have their rights argued against by people who believe they have seen the sun dancing in the sky at the command of a God who will shortly begin punishing them. People are entitled to their own beliefs, but not to the right to impse these on others. ACCT - you would impose your views of the rights of homosexuals to formalise their relationships in law on others. Would you also require others by law to accept belief in dancing suns, or at least refrain, by law, from criticising that belief?

 

[_Abyssinia]

Homosexuals do not have a right to redefine marriage for the rest of us.

 

[ACCT]

It is sad that homosexuals have their rights argued against by people who believe they have seen the sun dancing in the sky at the command of a God who will shortly begin punishing them. People are entitled to their own beliefs, but not to the right to impse these on others. ACCT - you would impose your views of the rights of homosexuals to formalise their relationships in law on others. Would you also require others by law to accept belief in dancing suns, or at least refrain, by law, from criticising that belief?

**We all can be judged by the things that make us angry. ** If God is just a figment of my imagination, why are you so angry every time I talk about God and the morals that flow from His word?

Projection is an interesting concept in psychology. I think that your anger is your projection of your sense of justice onto God. Anger is not in God. ** Anger comes from our disordered lives and bad consciences. **

Homosexual activists claim that their “domestic partnerships” are a simple issue of tolerance. ** I am not buying it! Do you really think that Michaelangelo Signorile is a lone voice crying in the wilderness? Do you think that he is not representative of the homosexual movement? Give me a break! Paula Ettelbrick, director for the National Center for Lesbian Rights, said, “We must keep our eyes on the goals of providing true alternatives to marriage and of radically reordering society’s views of reality.” Shall I go on? ** I think that homosexual activists are in denial.

References:

Paula Ettelbrick, “Since When is Marriage a Path to Liberation?” in Rubenstein, op cit., p.405

 

[Hokomai]

**We all can be judged by the things that make us angry. ** If God is just a figment of my imagination, why are you so angry every time I talk about God and the morals that flow from His word?

Projection is an interesting concept in psychology. I think that your anger is your projection of your sense of justice onto God. Anger is not in God. ** Anger comes from our disordered lives and bad consciences. **

Homosexual activists claim that their “domestic partnerships” are a simple issue of tolerance. ** I am not buying it! Do you really think that Michaelangelo Signorile is a lone voice crying in the wilderness? Do you think that he is not representative of the homosexual movement? Give me a break! Paula Ettelbrick, director for the National Center for Lesbian Rights, said, “We must keep our eyes on the goals of providing true alternatives to marriage and of radically reordering society’s views of reality.” Shall I go on? ** I think that homosexual activists are in denial.

References:

Paula Ettelbrick, “Since When is Marriage a Path to Liberation?” in Rubenstein, op cit., p.405

What makes you think I am angry? I said I was sad, not angry. I was telling the truth. Sadness is exactly the emotion I felt on reading your post.

 

[Hokomai]

Homosexuals do not have a right to redefine marriage for the rest of us.

Well most of us live in democracies, and homosexuals are a minority everywhere, so not only do they not have the right, they do not have the ability. They do however have a right to expect people who believe in fairness and equality before the law to accept their right to live as they wish without harming others.

 

[ACCT]

What makes you think I am angry? I said I was sad, not angry. I was telling the truth. Sadness is exactly the emotion I felt on reading your post.

Homosexuality and atheism are related to one another. A humanistic society has no restriction of morals which come from religion. ** Homosexuality becomes normal in a society where there are no morals. ** Let us not forget that George Washington once said the pillars of our society are the Constitution and religion. Unfortunately, we are loosing both. **We have sown the seeds of our own destruction! **

We are in a battle for America’s soul. Homosexuality is one of the cultural issues that divide us. George Busch, to his credit, believes that** marriage should only be between a man a woman. To think otherwise is to attack marriage. **

Do homosexuals only seek to be tolerated? I think not. **The homosexual agenda is to destroy marriage. Society undermines marriage and the family the moment it accords equal recognition to homosexual couples. **

 

[Hokomai]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hokomai forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_khaki/viewpost.gif
What makes you think I am angry? I said I was sad, not angry. I was telling the truth. Sadness is exactly the emotion I felt on reading your post.

Homosexuality and atheism are related to one another. A humanistic society has no restriction of morals which come from religion. ** Homosexuality becomes normal in a society where there are no morals. ** Let us not forget that George Washington once said the pillars of our society are the Constitution and religion. Unfortunately, we are loosing both. **We have sown the seeds of our own destruction! **

We are in a battle for America’s soul. Homosexuality is one of the cultural issues that divide us. George Busch, to his credit, believes that** marriage should only be between a man a woman. To think otherwise is to attack marriage. **

Do homosexuals only seek to be tolerated? I think not. **The homosexual agenda is to destroy marriage. Society undermines marriage and the family the moment it accords equal recognition to homosexual couples. **

What has this to do with my alleged anger? Also may I point out that not everyone lives in the US?

---

 

[ACCT]

Well most of us live in democracies, and homosexuals are a minority everywhere, so not only do they not have the right, they do not have the ability. They do however have a right to expect people who believe in fairness and equality before the law to accept their right to live as they wish without harming others.

Christians are to be firm in condemning sin, such as homosexuality. Christians are not to be swayed like branches in the wind. Fasting and prayer is our guiding star. We do not have a gallop-poll mentality. We do not obtain our beliefs from the media. The assumption that Christians need to conform to the rest of society is a clever move. It kills the transformation of society toward love. It encourages division, and even divides families.

 

[Hokomai]

Christians are to be firm in condemning sin, such as homosexuality. Christians are not to be swayed like branches in the wind. Fasting and prayer is our guiding star. We do not have a gallop-poll mentality. We do not obtain our beliefs from the media. The assumption that Christians need to conform to the rest of society is a clever move. It kills the transformation of society toward love. It encourages division, and even divides families.

I still don’t get why you say I am angry.

 

[ACCT]

I still don’t get why you say I am angry.

If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, forget about it.

Moral Relativism

“Modern man has become passive in the face of evil. He has so long preached a doctrine of false tolerance; has so long believed that right and wrong were only differences in a point of view, that now when evil works itself out in practice he is paralyzed to do anything against it (Sheen).”

 

[Hokomai]

If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, forget about it.

So there was no reason at all you said I was angry?

 

[Stephen168]

This is an excellent article.

Here is the last paragraph, which I find very compelling:

The biggest danger homosexual civil marriage presents is the enshrining into law the notion that sexual love, regardless of its fecundity, is the sole criterion for marriage. If the state must recognize a marriage of two men simply because they love one another, upon what basis can it deny marital recognition to a group of two men and three women, for example, or a sterile brother and sister who claim to love each other? Homosexual activists protest that they only want all couples treated equally. But why is sexual love between two people more worthy of state sanction than love between three, or five? When the purpose of marriage is procreation, the answer is obvious. If sexual love becomes the primary purpose, the restriction of marriage to couples loses its logical basis, leading to marital chaos.

Yes, through the chaos marriage becomes meaningless and is distroyed.

 

[wynnejj]

People are entitled to their own beliefs, but not to the right to impose these on others.

Without God, what do the words “entitled” and “rights” have to do with any law that are simply man-made decisions to impose a code of behaviour on a population? Obviously, the concept of being entitled or having a right is a figment of the imagination. Only with God, does the concept of being entitled or having rights have any force of logic. Your words only support anarchy logically. If you support law & order, then you support imposing the will of some over the will of others for no other reason than some, maybe but not necessarily including you, have the might to define, impose & enforce some notion of “right”. If you don’t have the might to define gay marriage as a “right”, if you support the concept of law, you support those with the might to impose their will over yours, even if their imagination with their silly beliefs is entirely different from yours. Of course, logically you don’t support law, because your statement only supports the concept of anarchy.

 

[edwest2]

It is sad that homosexuals have their rights argued against by people who believe they have seen the sun dancing in the sky at the command of a God who will shortly begin punishing them. People are entitled to their own beliefs, but not to the right to impse these on others. ACCT - you would impose your views of the rights of homosexuals to formalise their relationships in law on others. Would you also require others by law to accept belief in dancing suns, or at least refrain, by law, from criticising that belief?

No one is imposing anything. Homosexual “rights” are already available, including by the use of legal force.

I put my mail friend down as a beneficiary on my IRA. It was all handled over the phone. No question was asked about orientation.

I put my same friend on my meager bank account as beneficiary. No orientation question.

I can will all my worldly possessions to my friend in a will, or my next door neighbor. No orientation is involved.

My friend will be given power of attorney or even guardianship if my health or mental capacity deteriorates.

By the use of legal force, Catholic adoption agencies have been required by conscience to close their doors.

I challenge anyone to point out where rights are not available to homosexuals the same as they are to heterosexuals.

I ask anyone to point out what responsibilities are involved in a homosexual marriage.

Many successful gay marriages do not include fidelity.

nytimes.com/2010/01/29/us/29sfmetro.html

And here’s another example where force was applied but failed.

lifesitenews.com/news/archive/ldn/2009/feb/09021808

Peace,
Ed