Homosexual politics?

[LVCIVS_DEI]

**See, this is the problem, you are so conceited that you just assume to be right per definition.
A few moths ago i send a e mail to a very well known priest in the Netherlands in which i asked whether one catholic is allowed to have his opinion about the catholic faith and he replied yes. **

He told you that as a Catholic it is all right for you to disagree with the teachings of the Church?

What is this priest’s name? I need to contact his bishop.

As long as one does not reject them yes.
Here i will show you the mail.

Dutch:
Geachte heer Joeri Foolen,
iemand is een ketter, wanneer hij kernpunten van de geloofsleer afwijst – bij voorbeeld het geloof in de Drievuldigheid, de dubbele natuur van Jezus, Maria als de Moeder Gods et cetera. Elke gelovige kan wel een mening hebben over het geloof. Maar de zaak is niet de mening maar de afwijzing van al hetgeen wij in het ‘Credo’, de geloofsbelijdenis dus, voor waar aannemen en aldus geloven.

English:
Dear Mr Yuri Foolen,
someone is a heretic, when he rejects core points of doctrine - for example, the belief in the Trinity, the dual nature of Jesus, Mary as the Mother of God, et cetera.
Every believer can have an opinion about the faith . But the matter is not the opinion but the rejection of all the things in the creed, we take for granted and thusly believe.

Met een hartelijke groet uit Rome en u voortgaande monterheid toegewenst in uw omstandigheid.

Antoine Bodar.(The priest)

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

**See, this is the problem, you are so conceited that you just assume to be right per definition.
A few moths ago i send a e mail to a very well known priest in the Netherlands in which i asked whether one catholic is allowed to have his opinion about the catholic faith and he replied yes. **

He told you that as a Catholic it is all right for you to disagree with the teachings of the Church?

What is this priest’s name? I need to contact his bishop.

As long as one does not reject them yes.
Here i will show you the mail.

Dutch:
Geachte heer Joeri Foolen,
iemand is een ketter, wanneer hij kernpunten van de geloofsleer afwijst – bij voorbeeld het geloof in de Drievuldigheid, de dubbele natuur van Jezus, Maria als de Moeder Gods et cetera. Elke gelovige kan wel een mening hebben over het geloof. Maar de zaak is niet de mening maar de afwijzing van al hetgeen wij in het ‘Credo’, de geloofsbelijdenis dus, voor waar aannemen en aldus geloven.

English:
Dear Mr Yuri Foolen,
someone is a heretic, when he rejects core points of doctrine - for example, the belief in the Trinity, the dual nature of Jesus, Mary as the Mother of God, et cetera.
Every believer can have an opinion about the faith . But the matter is not the opinion but the rejection of all the things in the creed, we take for granted and thusly believe.
Antoine Bodar.
(The priest)

There you have it.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

**There you have it. **

No, there I do not have it. Obviously we don’t deny anything in the creed, since we declare we believe in it at every Mass. However, the creed is not all that is taught by the Catholic Church, and that Catholics have to believe if they are going to call themselves Catholic. There are many Protestants who believe everything in the Nicene Creed, but certainly do not believe many other things that Catholics are required to believe if they are going to be Catholics in good standing with the Church.

Pro life, for example, is not in the creed, yet we are not allowed as Catholics to believe in pro-choice. It is not a matter of opinion, but a matter of heresy to declare that it’s all right to kill the unborn when it suits you. The same goes for sodomy, etc. Any priest who would tell you those are just opinions, and not teachings, is a bad priest; and his bishop is a bad bishop for letting him be a bad priest.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

You misunderstand me, i am not talking about the Nicene Creed, i am talking about the core beliefs of the catholic church.
For example, the belief in the Trinity, the dual nature of Jesus, Mary as the Mother of God, et cetera.

PS:Here is where i send the letter to, contact him if you do not believe me.
antoinebodar.nl/contact
Father Bodar has studied in Rome, and wrote many books concerning the catholic faith.

And is pro life not a political term?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Lucius

Father Bodar has studied in Rome, and wrote many books concerning the catholic faith.

So did Martin Luther.

**And is pro life not a political term? **

Do you mean to imply it is not also a Catholic teaching?

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

Lucius

Father Bodar has studied in Rome, and wrote many books concerning the catholic faith.

So did Martin Luther.

**And is pro life not a political term? **

Do you mean to imply it is not also a Catholic teaching?

Father Bodar is well respected Catholic priest, he is more or less the official spokesperson of the catholic church in the Netherlands, how dare you compare him to Martin Luther!
If he where like Luther he would have been excommunicated.
He certainly would not work as a priest in Rome.

Why don’t you contact him and find out, or are you afraid you might be wrong?
antoinebodar.nl/contact

No, the Catholic teaching is that one who commits abortion is excommunicated, it is matter of faith, and not a matter of state.

Next thing you will say there is no such thing as purgatory…

 

[fix]

English:
Dear Mr Yuri Foolen,
someone is a heretic, when he rejects core points of doctrine - for example, the belief in the Trinity, the dual nature of Jesus, Mary as the Mother of God, et cetera.
Every believer can have an opinion about the faith . But the matter is not the opinion but the rejection of all the things in the creed, we take for granted and thusly believe.
Antoine Bodar.
(The priest)

There you have it.

That is all true, but it does not really go into any depth.

 

[fix]

DOCTRINAL COMMENTARY ON THE CONCLUDING FORMULA OF THE PROFESSIO FIDEI
Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

 

[Incomplete]

I am only saying that if it where up to me i would change things, that is all.
Everything else is just me explaining why.
And it would help if you people where a little bit more understanding and a little less aggressive.

If I come across as agressive, I apologize. But I’m not sure what you mean it would help if I changed. What exactly would it help? And how do I change? I am trying to make some points, not be aggressive, but I don’t really know how to do that any differently than I am.

I came into this thread because you were saying that it brings us closer to truth to change doctrine. I challenged you on how you would know that, on how do we know truth…because this is important. Jesus promised to send us the Spirit to lead us to truth, so there must be a way to know it. It can’t be through individual prayer; I have known too many very prayerful people who can’t agree on what it takes for salvation. In fact, a number of people would tell you Catholics can’t be saved at all. If they are right, then we all need to leave the Church.

Disagreement does not equal not being understanding.

 

[Incomplete]

As long as one does not reject them yes.
Here i will show you the mail.

English:
Dear Mr Yuri Foolen,
someone is a heretic, when he rejects core points of doctrine - for example, the belief in the Trinity, the dual nature of Jesus, Mary as the Mother of God, et cetera.
Every believer can have an opinion about the faith . But the matter is not the opinion but the rejection of all the things in the creed, we take for granted and thusly believe.
Antoine Bodar.
(The priest)

There you have it.

I’m a bit confused. You said it is OK to disagree with core teachings, as long as you don’t reject them. At what point does disagreement turn into rejection? The folks I know who disagree would say those teachings are wrong…that’s what it is to disagree…so in other words, they are rejecting them. Are we misunderstanding you?

Also, this sounds like a very general response from the priest. What was your question to the priest? Because there are, in fact, some things we can have an opinion on. For instance, we can have an opinion on whether or not priests should be married. The celibate priesthood is not a teaching, it’s a discipline.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

If I come across as agressive, I apologize. But I’m not sure what you mean it would help. What exactly would it help?

I came into this thread because you were saying that it brings us closer to truth to change doctrine. I challenged you on how you would know that, on how do we know truth…because this is important. Jesus promised to send us the Spirit to lead us to truth, so there must be a way to know it. It can’t be through individual prayer; I have known too many very prayerful people who can’t agree on what it takes for salvation. In fact, a number of people would tell you Catholics can’t be saved at all. If they are right, then we all need to leave the Church.

Disagreement does not equal not being understanding.

So we should just bow our heads and say amen, i am not a slave who does everything hes told, Primates can make mistakes as well, such as the case of Galileo, or Pope Honorius I, and you act as if you are better than me, at least that is how you come across.
My biggest problem with all of you is that you talk in absolutes:
“You are wrong, I am right, just because you say so!”

Who died and made you bishops?

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

I’m a bit confused. You said it is OK to disagree with core teachings, as long as you don’t reject them. At what point does disagreement turn into rejection? The folks I know who disagree would say those teachings are wrong…that’s what it is to disagree…so in other words, they are rejecting them. Are we misunderstanding you?

Also, this sounds like a very general response from the priest. What was your question to the priest? Because there are, in fact, some things we can have an opinion on. For instance, we can have an opinion on whether or not priests should be married. The celibate priesthood is not a teaching, it’s a discipline.

Certain teachings, as long as they are not “De Fidei”…

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Lucius
**
Father Bodar is well respected Catholic priest, he is more or less the official spokesperson of the catholic church in the Netherlands, how dare you compare him to Martin Luther!**

I did not compare him to Martin Luther. You gave two credentials for this priest. I merely pointed out that Martin Luther had the same credentials. You can’t just say that a priest who has been to Rome and written books is therefore an authority everyone has to respect.

Next thing you will say there is no such thing as purgatory…

Why would I say that?

I think you are very confused. English must be a second language for you.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Lucius

**So we should just bow our heads and say amen, i am not a slave who does everything hes told, Primates can make mistakes as well, such as the case of Galileo, or Pope Honorius I, and you act as if you are better than me, at least that is how you come across.
My biggest problem with all of you is that you talk in absolutes:
“You are wrong, I am right, just because you say so!”

Who died and made you bishops? **

These are childish remarks. Grow up!

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

Lucius
**
Father Bodar is well respected Catholic priest, he is more or less the official spokesperson of the catholic church in the Netherlands, how dare you compare him to Martin Luther!**

I did not compare him to Martin Luther. You gave two credentials for this priest. I merely pointed out that Martin Luther had the same credentials. You can’t just say that a priest who has been to Rome and written books is therefore an authority everyone has to respect.

Next thing you will say there is no such thing as purgatory…

Why would I say that?

I think you are very confused. English must be a second language for you.

A few months ago somebody on this forum said that, i was just using a metaphor…

 

[fix]

1. It is deplorable that homosexual persons have been and are the object of violent malice in speech or in action. Such treatment deserves condemnation from the Church’s pastors wherever it occurs. It reveals a kind of disregard for others which endangers the most fundamental principles of a healthy society. The intrinsic dignity of each person must always be respected in word, in action and in law.
   vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

From that document:

Nevertheless, increasing numbers of people today, even within the Church, are bringing enormous pressure to bear on the Church to accept the homosexual condition as though it were not disordered and to condone homosexual activity. Those within the Church who argue in this fashion often have close ties with those with similar views outside it. These latter groups are guided by a vision opposed to the truth about the human person, which is fully disclosed in the mystery of Christ. They reflect, even if not entirely consciously, a materialistic ideology which denies the transcendent nature of the human person as well as the supernatural vocation of every individual.

But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase.

What is at all costs to be avoided is the unfounded and demeaning assumption that the sexual behaviour of homosexual persons is always and totally compulsive and therefore inculpable. What is essential is that the fundamental liberty which characterizes the human person and gives him his dignity be recognized as belonging to the homosexual person as well. As in every conversion from evil, the abandonment of homosexual activity will require a profound collaboration of the individual with God’s liberating grace.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

Lucius

**So we should just bow our heads and say amen, i am not a slave who does everything hes told, Primates can make mistakes as well, such as the case of Galileo, or Pope Honorius I, and you act as if you are better than me, at least that is how you come across.
My biggest problem with all of you is that you talk in absolutes:
“You are wrong, I am right, just because you say so!”

Who died and made you bishops? **

These are childish remarks. Grow up!

Al i am saying is that strike me as prideful angry souls.
It would be better if you said “As far as i know”
instead of “This is the truth because i say so”
I am not trying to offend anybody, but it would help if you did not treat me as an enemy.

Maybe you people will like the piece i wrote against sedevacantism more…

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

From that document:

Does that not prove than shunning people is wrong?
Should we not love all our brothers and sisters?

Peter 4:8

 

[Incomplete]

So we should just bow our heads and say amen, i am not a slave who does everything hes told, Primates can make mistakes as well, such as the case of Galileo, or Pope Honorius I, and you act as if you are better than me, at least that is how you come across.
My biggest problem with all of you is that you talk in absolutes:
“You are wrong, I am right, just because you say so!”

Who died and made you bishops?

I apologize, and your response is “Who died and made you bishops?” That I act as if I am better than you? And to tell me I talk in absolutes?

Show me where I said or implied any of this. I am trying to have a discussion with you, but I can’t if every time I question you, you throw out these kinds of things.

So here’s the thing: regarding things like bad Popes, none of their mistakes have been regarding doctrines of the Church. And that’s the part that I have been trying to discuss with you…not your original post.

I came in when you said this:

Because every time the children of the holy mother church recognize that the teachings should be revised they get a step closer to the truth, their creator, and the redemption of all benevolent people on God’s good earth"

Now, this is very, very important stuff. So I challenged you on that, essentially asking how we can know truth. You said we don’t; we can just pray and hope.

So I discussed why I don’t agree with you, and your response was just like you said above, about just following blindly. That isn’t really a response.

I haven’t gotten into the discussion on your original post about homosexuality at all. I have only been trying to challenge you on whether or not we can know truth.

For you to imply we all just follow “blindly” is wrong. You don’t know us. And while you tell us that we are acting like we are better than you and then you say this, can you not see how it comes across as you saying you are better than us? That you are doing just what you accuse us of doing? Or at least, what you have accused me of doing?

You don’t know me at all. You don’t know the years and years I have spent delving into this stuff because of my own concerns with how to know truth. I follow, but not blindly. I follow with full intellectual consent.

You contend we cannot know truth. I contend that Jesus made good on His word to send the Spirit to lead us to truth. I contend that truth is so important that He would give us a way to know it.

When you say that changing our teachings will lead us closer to truth, but then say we cannot know truth for certain but can only hope and pray, you are contradicting yourself. Because there is, according to what you say, no way to know that changing teachings will lead us to those truths.

I would not ask you to blindly follow the Church. I would ask you to consider why you think we can’t know truth, but can only hope. I would ask you to question why God promised to lead us to truth, and then would not provide a way for us to know it.

 

[fix]

Does that not prove than shunning people is wrong?
Should we not love all our brothers and sisters?

Peter 4:8

Who is shunning?