Homosexual politics?

[Stephen168]

You misunderstood me, this debate is not contrary to Catholic Doctrine, the advise from one of the apologists is:
If i was not clear on that, well…WHOOPS!

It seems you are now retracting all your opening claims on this thread. I have to agree they were all false.
Debating homosexual politics is not contrary to Catholic Doctrine
No Catholic apologist has claimed their sin is less than another’s.
No Catholic apologist has recommended shunning a homosexual.

You must remember that as Catholics we are also required to avoid scandal. Habitual thieves, rapist, and murders are not the kind of people I want to be friends with, even though I may have to work with them. I am required to treat them with the dignity required of my fellow man. Dignity does not require than I have them over for pizza and beer once a week.

 

[Incomplete]

Its not like that at all, humans are flawed, all humans, and recognizing our mistakes is not humiliating, quite the opposite in fact, it allows us to humbly seek the truth.
You are saying faith is based on knowing, and that is a contradiction, faith is based on believing.
And like i said:
PS:If you still think i am in error due to what i said because of my conscience (sorry for not being more clear on that), you can contact my Bishop.
info@bisdomdenbosch.nl

I agree that humans are flawed. I don’t see how that contradicts what I said.

I didn’t say faith is based on knowing. I said that if God is a God of truth, He will let us know truth. Faith as about believing in God, a totally different issue.

We preach a God of truth, a God who wants us to know truth. I cannot believe in a God of truth who does not provide us a way to know it.

You think you can know truth based on conscience. My point is that your conscience differs from the conscience of lots of other very prayerful people, people who desire to serve God and to dedicate their lives to Him. I’m not just talking Catholic teaching; many, many people of prayer would disagree with you. And yes, I realize many also agree with you. That’s exactly my point. If God wants us to know truth, He had to provide a way beyond individual conscience.

You talk about us humbly seeking truth. I am pretty certain Pope Benedict does that. I am pretty certain Pope John Paul II did. I am absolutely positive my closest friends do, as do I. But if we are seeking and being led to believe differently from you, if we base it on individual conscience, then how can we know whether your conscience is right or ours? How can you know?

Why seek truth if there is no way to know truth?

 

[Incomplete]

No of course not, its our human interpretation that can, i am just saying it is, i am only saying what my conscience demands me to say.

This makes my point again. If our interpretation can lead us astray, God must have provided a means for us not to be led astray.

 

[Incomplete]

I am starting to think you are all really afraid of doubt.
Not that i blame you.

I’m not sure who that was addressed to, but in light of our conversations, I suspect you addressed that to me.

I’m not afraid of doubt…it is, in fact, something that has been a big part of my life. In some ways it has helped me to grow a lot.

Having said that, doubt is where I started to see that, if there is a God of truth, He must want us to know it. He must have provided a way for us to know it, something apart from our own individual conscience or interpretation.

Edit: Nevermind, I just saw the “all” in what you said, so I see it wasn’t addressed specifically to me. Nonetheless, for people to question your conscience over, say, Pope Benedict’s conscience or their own conscience does not mean people are afraid of doubt.

 

[fix]

I am starting to think you are all really afraid of doubt.
Not that i blame you.

Have you seen the CCC on this?:

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

It seems you are now retracting all your opening claims on this thread. I have to agree they were all false.
Debating homosexual politics is not contrary to Catholic Doctrine
No Catholic apologist has claimed their sin is less than another’s.
No Catholic apologist has recommended shunning a homosexual.

You must remember that as Catholics we are also required to avoid scandal. Habitual thieves, rapist, and murders are not the kind of people I want to be friends with, even though I may have to work with them. I am required to treat them with the dignity required of my fellow man. Dignity does not require than I have them over for pizza and beer once a week.

Well like i said, if you believe my conscience has led my to to be in error than you can contract my bishop.
info@bisdomdenbosch.nl
GGW Foolen.
Bless you.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

This makes my point again. If our interpretation can lead us astray, God must have provided a means for us not to be led astray.

Because faith is not based on knowing, but on believing.
And again, if you believe my conscience has led my to to be in error than you can contract my bishop.
info@bisdomdenbosch.nl
GGW Foolen.
I will pray for you, like i always do.
(I pray for everybody)

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

Have you seen the CCC on this?:

2088 The first commandment requires us to nourish and protect our faith with prudence and vigilance, and to reject everything that is opposed to it. There are various ways of sinning against faith:

Voluntary doubt about the faith disregards or refuses to hold as true what God has revealed and the Church proposes for belief. Involuntary doubt refers to hesitation in believing, difficulty in overcoming objections connected with the faith, or also anxiety aroused by its obscurity. If deliberately cultivated doubt can lead to spiritual blindness.

I think the above would also answers this question.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

I’m not sure who that was addressed to, but in light of our conversations, I suspect you addressed that to me.

I’m not afraid of doubt…it is, in fact, something that has been a big part of my life. In some ways it has helped me to grow a lot.

Having said that, doubt is where I started to see that, if there is a God of truth, He must want us to know it. He must have provided a way for us to know it, something apart from our own individual conscience or interpretation.

Edit: Nevermind, I just saw the “all” in what you said, so I see it wasn’t addressed specifically to me. Nonetheless, for people to question your conscience over, say, Pope Benedict’s conscience or their own conscience does not mean people are afraid of doubt.

I think i allready adressed this in the last few replies.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

PS:If you all doubt my sincerity i do not blame you.

But i would recommend a book:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imitation_of_Christ

 

[Stephen168]

Well like i said, if you believe my conscience has led my to to be in error than you can contract my bishop…

I never questioned your conscience. I questioned your facts. And now that you have withdrawn your claims, we agree.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

I never questioned your conscience. I questioned your facts. And now that you have withdrawn your claims, we agree.

We could debate who is responsible for this misunderstanding, but lets not.
Finger pointing never served any real purpose.

 

[Incomplete]

Because faith is not based on knowing, but on believing.
And again, if you believe my conscience has led my to to be in error than you can contract my bishop.
info@bisdomdenbosch.nl
GGW Foolen.
I will pray for you, like i always do.
(I pray for everybody)

Why do you keep telling everybody to contact your Bishop?

Faith is different from truth. We can have faith in any number of things, but that doesn’t make it true. There are many who have faith in other gods, or in “Once saved, always saved”, or any number of non-religious things. Faith is different from truth.

Do you understand the difference?

 

[Incomplete]

PS:If you all doubt my sincerity i do not blame you.

But i would recommend a book:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Imitation_of_Christ

Good book, but it might be helpful if you tell us why you are recommending it.

I can’t speak for others, but I don’t doubt your sincerity. You do not really answer many of the questions, though. You try to, but lots of things are left unanswered, and your responses don’t really answer, either.

For example, you have mentioned that faith is not based on knowing. I responded that there is a difference between truth and faith. You came back with the same statement on faith not being based on knowing.

I get the impression you don’t think there are any real truths.

 

[Stephen168]

We could debate who is responsible for this misunderstanding, but lets not.

Let’s review

I find this whole debate rather contrary to catholic doctrine,…
LVCIVS DEI;10324750:

You misunderstood me, this debate is not contrary to Catholic Doctrine,…

I did not ‘misunderstand’ you.
You claimed something which was not true. I asked you to prove it, and then you with drew you claim. Now we agree.
From your first post you have been hostile to your fellow Catholics about their belief on homosexual behavior, and have resorted to arrogant name calling.

I fear you are all so blinded by anger and pride……

Now we know why you are hostile toward your fellow Catholics. You disagree with Church teaching.

Ah, i understand, well if it where up to me, and i know it isn’t, i would change the doctrine on sexuality, so relationships between two adults based on love are no longer considered a sin.

We support the Church’s teaching on homosexual behavior which is a sin. No greater or lesser a sin than any other sin. The only difference seems to be that homosexuals identify themselves with their sin; they embrace their sin. Most people are ashamed of their sin, and pray they will sin no more.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

Why do you keep telling everybody to contact your Bishop?

Faith is different from truth. We can have faith in any number of things, but that doesn’t make it true. There are many who have faith in other gods, or in “Once saved, always saved”, or any number of non-religious things. Faith is different from truth.

Do you understand the difference?

Well, if you truly believe my conscience has led my to error he might want to talk with me, or send a priest to have a talk with me, its just friendly advise, nothing more.

Yes of course, but its not what you say its how you say it.
People on this forum have a habit of saying “You must”
You must go to church, you must believe in the creed, etc.
That is why most people you describe as “liberal catholics” dislike you, they do not hate you, they fear you.
They think you are saying that they will go to hell if they disagree with your interpretation of canon law, or rather the advise written down by the forums senior members.

To be hones its kinda hard for me to explain, i ca not seem to find the words, but here is how they view conservative catholics, i know that the image presented is not true, but if you want to look through there eyes, and from their point of view you should take a look at this, because this is how they look at you, at least that is what i believe
youtube.com/watch?v=qtAKvRwGILo
Its a metaphor…

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

Good book, but it might be helpful if you tell us why you are recommending it.

I can’t speak for others, but I don’t doubt your sincerity. You do not really answer many of the questions, though. You try to, but lots of things are left unanswered, and your responses don’t really answer, either.

For example, you have mentioned that faith is not based on knowing. I responded that there is a difference between truth and faith. You came back with the same statement on faith not being based on knowing.

I get the impression you don’t think there are any real truths.

Yes of course there are truths, but we do not know they are true, we BELIEVE them to be.
And some people just cant see the truth due to no fault of there own.
I hope that clarifies things.

And i recommend the book because i think you might learn from it, that is all, it certainly inspired me to better myself, so i am hoping it might do the same for you.

 

[LVCIVS_DEI]

Let’s review
I did not ‘misunderstand’ you.
You claimed something which was not true. I asked you to prove it, and then you with drew you claim. Now we agree.
From your first post you have been hostile to your fellow Catholics about their belief on homosexual behavior, and have resorted to arrogant name calling.

Now we know why you are hostile toward your fellow Catholics. You disagree with Church teaching.

We support the Church’s teaching on homosexual behavior which is a sin. No greater or lesser a sin than any other sin. The only difference seems to be that homosexuals identify themselves with their sin; they embrace their sin. Most people are ashamed of their sin, and pray they will sin no more.

Well i did not mean any insult, but allow me to explain myself.
We are all sinners, so in essence we all have a sinful lifestyle, in one form or another, so when you say you can befriend a homosexual for being gay it just sounds hypocritical to me, like you are saying:
Their lifestyle is to sinful for me.
Does that not imply you believe yours isn’t?

I could never do that, and i cant see how anybody else could, i meant no offense really.
Trust me, when i do youy will know!

 

[Incomplete]

Yes of course there are truths, but we do not know they are true, we BELIEVE them to be.
And some people just cant see the truth due to no fault of there own.
I hope that clarifies things.

And i recommend the book because i think you might learn from it, that is all, it certainly inspired me to better myself, so i am hoping it might do the same for you.

I wasn’t sure how the book came up in light of this particular conversation. That’s why I asked about it. It seems you just threw it out there.

I believe I exist. In fact, I know that I exist. My dad…he is in the hospital right now. I don’t just believe that, I absolutely know that. So truth isn’t just about beliefs; you can know truths.

If we can’t know truth in regards to God, if it’s all just a guess, if God has given us no way to know what He wants, then He has failed. Because if we can’t know truth, we can’t know sin, nor can we know the path to salvation. We can only guess.

You have mentioned that your conscience compels you with regards to the homosexual issue. If there is no way to know truth, your conscience could be very, very wrong and you could be leading people astray. Or, conversely, all the things the Church teaches could be leading people astray. You couldn’t know if your conscience is right…so I’m not sure why you try to lead us this way.

For your comment about those who can’t see the truth…if there is no way to know truth, then nobody can actually see truth. We can only guess at it. And that means God has failed.

 

[Incomplete]

Well, if you truly believe my conscience has led my to error he might want to talk with me, or send a priest to have a talk with me, its just friendly advise, nothing more.

Yes of course, but its not what you say its how you say it.
People on this forum have a habit of saying “You must”
You must go to church, you must believe in the creed, etc.
That is why most people you describe as “liberal catholics” dislike you, they do not hate you, they fear you.
They think you are saying that they will go to hell if they disagree with your interpretation of canon law, or rather the advise written down by the forums senior members.

To be hones its kinda hard for me to explain, i ca not seem to find the words, but here is how they view conservative catholics, i know that the image presented is not true, but if you want to look through there eyes, and from their point of view you should take a look at this, because this is how they look at you, at least that is what i believe
youtube.com/watch?v=qtAKvRwGILo
Its a metaphor…

I’m not viewing the link because it’s not related to the discussion. The thing is, though I am a Catholic who is faithful to Church teachings, someone you would describe as “conservative”, I have quite a few friends who aren’t. And they like me. I suspect the link would just upset me, so as it’s not related to what we’re talking about, I’m not going there.

I am trying show you that if we can’t know truth, if we can only hope we are right, that truth is no good. So no, I have no reason to contact your priest. There are tons of people who disagree with Church teachings; I don’t feel compelled to contact their bishops or priests, and I suspect nobody on this forum does. We do give you information to try to understand things.

Often you change the subject, and that makes discussion difficult. You want us to see, for example, what others are saying about conservative Catholics, when I’m asking questions about how to know truth. In several of my responses you have brought up how you have been treated. I have not seen where I have said anything that even implies that you will go to hell, yet you tend to bring this kind of thing up in my responses to you. It does tend to side-track the conversation for something I have not said or even implied.

For instance, this was your answer to my asking you if you understand the difference between faith and truth. You said, “Yes, of course” but then went into how we say things. I don’t know how that is relevant to my question, and beyond “Yes, of course” you really didn’t get into the issue of what I asked.

Though you did pretty much answer it later. You don’t believe we can know truth. It’s out there somewhere, but we can’t know it. So if we can’t know truth, I don’t know how you are so convinced that your conscience is right and those of the early Christians all the way through our recent Popes is wrong.

You also said some people just can’t see the truth through no fault of their own. It wouldn’t really matter, because we’d never know who those people are. Maybe it’s the Pope. Maybe it’s me. Maybe it’s you. If we can’t know truth, then it really doesn’t matter, and our conscience means nothing…because people of good conscience disagree all the time.