Homosexual 'rights'

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How far should we go when opposing homosexual marriage, adoption and ‘rights’? I always see groups on facebook and people at work talking about how good it is. I want to speak up more. I think I need to just stop thinking what other people think and start getting the message out there that this type of thing isn’t good for society. I never hear about Catholics speaking out and it makes society think that there isn’t a problem with it. What do you think?
 
If you think Catholics are not speaking out against gay marriage and other gay rights legislation, then I think you haven’t spent enough time here at CAF! 😉

However, granted, online discussion isn’t the same as real-world conversation. And most of the discussions here concern US legislation, which might be boring for non-US residents. But that raises another question. Is there a difference between countries in terms of how much Catholics speak publicly in opposition to gay rights laws? Are Catholics in, say, Argentina or Canada more outspoken than Catholics in the US, or Australia, or Spain? Are the Catholics in some countries doing more than in others?
 
How far should we go when opposing homosexual marriage, adoption and ‘rights’? I always see groups on facebook and people at work talking about how good it is. I want to speak up more. I think I need to just stop thinking what other people think and start getting the message out there that this type of thing isn’t good for society. I never hear about Catholics speaking out and it makes society think that there isn’t a problem with it. What do you think?
As far as it takes.

I speak out, and I’m Catholic. Many on this board speak out. Many elsewhere.

Homosexuals have the same rights as anyone else. The militants are not concerned with that; they want everyone not only to embrace and encourage a particular sin, but turn upside-down even the notion of sin, perversion and the immortal soul.
 
How far should we go when opposing homosexual marriage, adoption and ‘rights’? I always see groups on facebook and people at work talking about how good it is. I want to speak up more. I think I need to just stop thinking what other people think and start getting the message out there that this type of thing isn’t good for society. I never hear about Catholics speaking out and it makes society think that there isn’t a problem with it. What do you think?
-This coming from someone who is pro-same sex marriage, etc…

Hey, if you feel it’s wrong, I think it’s your right to speak (your) truth to action. If you were one of my friends on FB, and you spoke against gay marriage, while I might not agree, I would not be annoyed, or deny you that right.
I have friends that are very anti-gay marriage and I respect their viewpoint. They have every right to speak out;0D

I also have friends who are very religious, and while I may not agree with a lot of their views, I would never disrespect their right to speak their truth…
(and if I have a post that might offend them, I will block them from viewing it…I don’t think it’s right to offend people just b/c I have a crude sense of humor of a different view of religion).
 
How far should we go when opposing homosexual marriage, adoption and ‘rights’? I always see groups on facebook and people at work talking about how good it is. I want to speak up more. I think I need to just stop thinking what other people think and start getting the message out there that this type of thing isn’t good for society. I never hear about Catholics speaking out and it makes society think that there isn’t a problem with it. What do you think?
americancatholic.org/News/Homosexuality/default.asp

ustimes5.com/catholic_church_starts_campaign_against_gay_marriage.htm

stmichaelsociety.com/tag/marriage/

Catholics have been identified as the biggest obstacle.

Hope this helps,
Ed
 
If you think Catholics are not speaking out against gay marriage and other gay rights legislation, then I think you haven’t spent enough time here at CAF! 😉

However, granted, online discussion isn’t the same as real-world conversation. And most of the discussions here concern US legislation, which might be boring for non-US residents. But that raises another question. Is there a difference between countries in terms of how much Catholics speak publicly in opposition to gay rights laws? Are Catholics in, say, Argentina or Canada more outspoken than Catholics in the US, or Australia, or Spain? Are the Catholics in some countries doing more than in others?
It is quite clear that Church leaders and Catholics in other countries are speaking out, but unless you read Catholic media, you’ll only get the tip of the iceberg. Church teaching on this issue applies globally.

God bless,
Ed
 
Thanks for the replies everybody. I feel that here locally that there aren’t many people that I know of that actively speak out against this type of thing. I feel like I’d be the only one at work or at uni who would be speaking out and because there are no other Christians that do the same thing that I’d be doing this solo and it would make it really difficult. But I guess that somebody has to start… and I will… 🙂
 
How far should we go when opposing homosexual marriage, adoption and ‘rights’?
Here’s an excellent video which describes how Christians should best approach the issue of homosexuality (it’s all in line with the Catholic Church).

youtube.com/watch?v=HFKWH4d4jsw&p=AE5EB49B3BADE049&playnext=1&index=58

It’s important, when you’re dealing with an issue like this, to love the individuals involved. One can, and should, oppose homosexual “marriage”, while trying make a point that one is not attacking the persons who one is disagreeing with.

Regarding adoption, the morality of adoption is determined by what is best (or least evil) for the child, which is a case by case issue. It’s almost always best for a child not to be raised by a gay couple, but that may sometimes be a lesser evil than being in the foster care system.
 
Here’s an excellent video which describes how Christians should best approach the issue of homosexuality (it’s all in line with the Catholic Church).

youtube.com/watch?v=HFKWH4d4jsw&p=AE5EB49B3BADE049&playnext=1&index=58

It’s important, when you’re dealing with an issue like this, to love the individuals involved. One can, and should, oppose homosexual “marriage”, while trying make a point that one is not attacking the persons who one is disagreeing with.

Regarding adoption, the morality of adoption is determined by what is best (or least evil) for the child, which is a case by case issue. It’s almost always best for a child not to be raised by a gay couple, but that may sometimes be a lesser evil than being in the foster care system.
In that case, no evil - lesser or not - should be permitted.

No, homosexual ‘couples’ ought not to be permitted to foster children. There is no ‘almost’ about it.
 
(Long reply, sorry) 😊

I think that unfortunately the timing is way too late for Catholics per se, as an organization, to make a significant dent in popular assumptions. I’ll have to frame it within other issues to explain myself:

When the idea first arose so many decades ago, of “test-tube babies,” the Catholic Church did the right thing. They stepped up to the plate and voiced the appropriate level of alarm, without hesitation and with no equivocation. Unfortunately after that they dropped the ball on the whole spectrum of designer reproductive technology until the issue of cloning came along. Between the first test-tube baby and the first animal-cloning discussion and incident, the Church virtually disappeared from the public forum. In those intervening years sperm banks by the hundreds came into existence, deliberate single motherhood came into casual acceptance (now it’s called “Choice Moms,” which does not refer to supporting an accidental pregnancy through full term), and exotic lifestyles in general multiplied, becoming a casual fact of modern life.

It’s difficult to regain a credible voice when for so long you’ve been silent on forms of parenthood other than live man + live woman in committed exclusive relationship, and how central and fundamental that is to the fabric of society. Naturally it’s always been in the teachings, but the NYT does not sit down nightly and read The Catechism, or the Encyclicals. For decades there has been no consistent, credible, public Catholic voice on the essential unit of rearing children. In the public’s perception, the Catholic Church cares most about:
(1) abortion per se
(2) homosexual activity per se (and “the lifestyle”)

The Church does have a public voice about some other issues such as euthanasia and embryonic stem cell research, but those of course do not address the OP’s question, which he named “homosexual rights.” There is of course a civil right to be a practicing homosexual, as the government does not try to control sexual activity. There is a universal right for all individuals in the U.S. to share the same explicit constitutional rights, as well as implicit ones that the courts themselves have interpreted/defined as embedded in the Constitution. (That includes free private and public association with other adults, barring any authorized restriction such as age, injunctions due to criminal acts, etc.)

Only recently has the Church become more public about its opposition to gay “marriage.” Meanwhile there’s been a lot of water over that dam. Very difficult to reverse the course of those floodgates at this point, despite some of us having carried this important issue permanently affecting the Life of children for very long now, without much assistance.

Catholics yes, should continue to oppose same-sex “marriage,” but they’d better be ready to answer why for so long they were so silent on the formal single-sex raising of children with absent fathers who were merely anonymous sperm donors, and why they’re still pretty much silent about this. Because both lifestyles objectively present the same thing: they create households in which the essential biological man+woman unit are missing. Straight women may have lots of male friends, but those aren’t fathers to the children, unless one of those men comes along, does love the woman, does adopt the child, and this adoptive father becomes a permanent part of the household, creating a traditional family unit. Merely “having opposite gender influences” does not suffice for a child. It affects a person’s security and identity to be able to relate to two primary adults of different genders. It’s more difficult in situations of separation and divorce, but at least there’s a conscious identity there that can develop over time, if both parents work at that, preferring the ultimate good of the child to the dynamic of their personal differences.

Single parenthood by accident is not the same issue as single parenthood by choice and design. But the church has also not weighed in much publicly on this general issue as well. We can say all we want to about how internally we understand what the Church says, but the outside world sees a preoccupation on the church’s part with externals, technicalities, end results, and with actions on the periphery, vs. situations, causes, and principles which are central to those issues but not being discussed much in the secular arena.

Answering OP’s question, I say, continue to go the distance, but be ready to articulate to your opposition why the Church is steadfast against SS"M" but lukewarm about single Moms with their “designer” babies and invisible, apparently disposable, sperm-donor Dads.

And you’d better be able to use non-Catholic language. The secular public doesn’t get “ordered” and “disordered” and is not terribly fond of the term “natural law.” (Some understand it; some don’t; some misinterpret it.) The Good of Society they can relate to. Wholeness and health are terms they can relate to. Future generations, psychological integration, emotional balance, marital role-modeling between the genders – all these they can relate to. If you’re going to register contempt for these terms as being too secular for your taste, then you (the Church, its members) will continue to lose battles in this arena: in public perception, in voting booths, in the courts. And a huge amount of the latter two are affected by the first.
 
I’m quite relaxed on this. I accept there is a tide in the affairs of men.

Cathoics and indeed all Christians have to accept that in all Western European countries Christians are now in the minority with humanism liberally laced with secular myths the de facto philosophical belief system accepted by most.

Against thei background all we can do is argue our point and then frankly step aside with dignity adn allow society have its way thus rendering unto Caesar.
 
BobObob;7028732:
Regarding adoption, the morality of adoption is determined by what is best (or least evil) for the child, which is a case by case issue. It’s almost always best for a child not to be raised by a gay couple, but that may sometimes be a lesser evil than being in the foster care system.
In that case, no evil - lesser or not - should be permitted.

No, homosexual ‘couples’ ought not to be permitted to foster children. There is no ‘almost’ about it.
Are you saying that in the following hypothetical situation, you would rather a child be molested:

In this hypothetical situation, one of two things may be done with Billy. Billy would either go to a foster home, where he’ll be sexually molested in this situation (I’ve been told that happens to 1 of 8 foster care children). The alternative is that he is adopted by gay couple who, in this situation are not going to sexually abuse Billy, and are going to adequately provide for Billy’s material needs and give Billy proper attention. Are you saying that you would rather have Billy sexually molested because this is an absolute?!

This is what I mean by adoption being a case-by-case issue. It’s not all black and white. Sometimes all the options are evil, and it’s a matter of which one is the least evil.

I’m certainly not advocating for children to be adopted by gay couples. However, that may sometimes be a lesser evil than the alternative.
 
I’m quite relaxed on this. I accept there is a tide in the affairs of men.

Cathoics and indeed all Christians have to accept that in all Western European countries Christians are now in the minority with humanism liberally laced with secular myths the de facto philosophical belief system accepted by most.

Against thei background all we can do is argue our point and then frankly step aside with dignity adn allow society have its way thus rendering unto Caesar.
“allow society have its way”? We are to preach the Gospel, in season and out of season. Don’t you realize that gay groups are always advertising their position in the hope of changing “public opinion”? Do you realize that opinions have no value here on this issue? There is the truth. The truth should be promoted. Our voices need to be heard.

This is not about individuals with same-sex attraction. I have worked with people with same-sex attraction - that is not the issue. The issue is turning gay sex into an institution. The biology simply isn’t there. Homosexual persons do not need permission from Catholics to do what they want right now. Redefining marriage is not a good idea.

God bless,
Ed
 
Are you saying that in the following hypothetical situation, you would rather a child be molested:

In this hypothetical situation, one of two things may be done with Billy. Billy would either go to a foster home, where he’ll be sexually molested in this situation (I’ve been told that happens to 1 of 8 foster care children). The alternative is that he is adopted by gay couple who, in this situation are not going to sexually abuse Billy, and are going to adequately provide for Billy’s material needs and give Billy proper attention. Are you saying that you would rather have Billy sexually molested because this is an absolute?!

This is what I mean by adoption being a case-by-case issue. It’s not all black and white. Sometimes all the options are evil, and it’s a matter of which one is the least evil.

I’m certainly not advocating for children to be adopted by gay couples. However, that may sometimes be a lesser evil than the alternative.
Sir, with all due respect, how can you guarantee “Billy’s” welfare like that? How can you say “are not”? Where does your certainty come from? Have you seen the molestation numbers for children who are not in foster care?

God bless,
Ed
 
BobObob;7030923:
Are you saying that in the following hypothetical situation, you would rather a child be molested:

In this hypothetical situation, one of two things may be done with Billy. Billy would either go to a foster home, where he’ll be sexually molested in this situation (I’ve been told that happens to 1 of 8 foster care children). The alternative is that he is adopted by gay couple who, in this situation are not
going to sexually abuse Billy, and are going to adequately provide for Billy’s material needs and give Billy proper attention. Are you saying that you would rather have Billy sexually molested because this is an absolute?!

This is what I mean by adoption being a case-by-case issue. It’s not all black and white. Sometimes all the options are evil, and it’s a matter of which one is the least evil.

I’m certainly not advocating for children to be adopted by gay couples. However, that may sometimes be a lesser evil than the alternative.

Sir, with all due respect, how can you guarantee “Billy’s” welfare like that?
There are some children who are in a position where their welfare cannot be guaranteed by any of the options that are available.
How can you say “are not”? Where does your certainty come from?
This is a hypothetical situation. My point is not that a child is more or less likely to be molested by a gay couple. Rather, I’m asking if in a particular hypothetical situation, where a child would either be molested in a foster home or not molested being adopted by a gay couple, wouldn’t the latter be preferable? Obviously you didn’t understand that.

My point with all this is that adoption is a case-by-case issue. What’s best for the child aught to be the top priority. Enough with this, it’s off topic…
 
While this might be a hypothetical situation, it certainly is a straw man argument.

Would we rather have orphans fed to wild beasts or adopted by a gay couple?

Would we rather have orphans drowned en masse or adopted by a gay couple?

The list is endless…
 
While this might be a hypothetical situation, it certainly is a straw man argument.

Would we rather have orphans fed to wild beasts or adopted by a gay couple?

Would we rather have orphans drowned en masse or adopted by a gay couple?

The list is endless…
Straw man! This seems to be getting to be a bit silly I think. There are children who one of two things will happen to them: be adopted or live in foster care. For many of those children, the prospective parents who want to adopt them aren’t ideal, but are better than foster care.

The fact that this may be an unlikely scenario does not make it a straw man. There sadly are children in really bad situations.
 
Straw man! This seems to be getting to be a bit silly I think. There are children who one of two things will happen to them: be adopted or live in foster care. For many of those children, the prospective parents who want to adopt them aren’t ideal, but are better than foster care.

The fact that this may be an unlikely scenario does not make it a straw man. There sadly are children in really bad situations.
Yes, you read it correctly, Straw man argument. The scenario presumes only two possible choices…and conveniently ignores the option of a married, heterosexual couple as adoptive parents.
 
BobObob;7033137:
Straw man! This seems to be getting to be a bit silly I think. There are children who one of two things will happen to them: be adopted or live in foster care. For many of those children, the prospective parents who want to adopt them aren’t ideal, but are better than foster care.

The fact that this may be an unlikely scenario does not make it a straw man. There sadly are children in really bad situations.
Yes, you read it correctly, Straw man argument. The scenario presumes only two possible choices…and conveniently ignores the option of a married, heterosexual couple as adoptive parents.
I’m not presuming only two possible choices. I’m saying that in this hypothetical scenario it happens, for whatever reason, that these are the only two choices because the other options aren’t available. Every situation is different, and some people are in unlikely no-win situations in life.

If there was always the option of being adopted by a married couple, than there would be no orphanages or foster care homes, because all children needing to be adopted would be. Unfortunately, we don’t live in a perfect world. It’s great when it is an option, but that’s not always the case.

Enough with this.
 
I’m not presuming only two possible choices. I’m saying that in this hypothetical scenario it happens, for whatever reason, that these are the only two choices because the other options aren’t available. Every situation is different, and some people are in unlikely no-win situations in life.

If there was always the option of being adopted by a married couple, than there would be no orphanages or foster care homes, because all children needing to be adopted would be. Unfortunately, we don’t live in a perfect world. It’s great when it is an option, but that’s not always the case.

Enough with this.
If you’ve had enough of this conversation, you are not required to continue. If you’re saying that you get the last word and that you’re right and everyone who disagrees is wrong, well, you’re entitled to your opinion but I beg to differ.

***"I’m not presuming only two possible choices. ***I’m saying ****that in this hypothetical scenario it happens, for whatever reason, that these are the only two choices because the other options aren’t available."

So you ARE presuming, in your hypothetical, only two choices…which is what I said.

The other choice in your hypothetical, perhaps, is for the gay couple to temporarily foster (redundant term, perhaps) the child until a suitable permanent home can be found. Perhaps this is the least of the evils?

I’m not sure…is exposing a child to a homosexual couple, presented as a “norm” or just another choice less of an evil than being in an abusive household? Suppose (another hypothetical condition) that the child would be more likely to become homosexual him or herself? I don’t know if this is the case or not, but certainly foster children **may be **susceptable to influences that kids with their “regular” parents may not be.

I guess I’m reluctant to buy the entire “lesser of two evils” concept here. As you said earlier, "I’m certainly not advocating for children to be adopted by gay couples.", and we can agree on that.

However, I still feel that while hypothetical situations can occur in real life, this one is unusually straw-mannish. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that this situation is so unlikely to occur as to not be within the realm of reasonable possibility. 🤷
 
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