Homosexual Teachers in Catholic Schools

[Thomas63116]

I am a bit surprised by the uniformity of harsh and absolutist responses here. . . First, I would suggest re-reading and meditating on John 8:1 - 8:11.

On the one hand I think in their role as a teacher in Catholic school, it is reasonable to expect teachers not to contradict Church teaching, in their words to students or in their public actions.

On the other hand I think there is a very slippery slope of probing into teachers’ private lives and determining whether they are personally faithful to all elements of Catholic teaching. Are we going to start dismissing every teacher who is in a civil marriage not a Catholic marriage? Every teacher who uses birth control? How many Sundays may a teacher miss Mass before he/she should be fired? This may not be a witch hunt but it can turn into one very, very quickly.

 

[cathlicconvert]

I am a bit surprised by the uniformity of harsh and absolutist responses here. . . First, I would suggest re-reading and meditating on John 8:1 - 8:11.

On the one hand I think in their role as a teacher in Catholic school, it is reasonable to expect teachers not to contradict Church teaching, in their words to students or in their public actions.

On the other hand I think there is a very slippery slope of probing into teachers’ private lives and determining whether they are personally faithful to all elements of Catholic teaching. Are we going to start dismissing every teacher who is in a civil marriage not a Catholic marriage? Every teacher who uses birth control? How many Sundays may a teacher miss Mass before he/she should be fired? This may not be a witch hunt but it can turn into one very, very quickly.

My only concern is that if you are sending your child to a catholic school in hopes of them being properly catechised, getting a good education, and not being negatively influenced by secular things at a young age, then I think it is only fair to expect that their teachers are not regularly living in a state of mortal sin.

I understand that if they keep things to themselves then it will likely not be an issue. But I recall from my education in public school growing up that personal ideals, views, etc. regularly came up in classes.

 

[LaSainte]

I honestly don’t see what the big deal is, but to each their own I guess.

I mean, I went to a Catholic school and I’m sure there were teachers there who were sinners (just like gasp ALL of us!), but no one would ever know because they didn’t talk about their personal lives or give their opinions on morals. The religion teachers taught religion class the same way you’d teach all other classes - they followed the curriculum, and taught according to whatever the religion book said. So I see no problem whatsoever.



But I agree, if people are going to be this picky, it is better to homeschool.

Agreed, Deborah.

Watch out when you homeschool your kids though. You can’t shelter them from the real world forever. These kids tend to go nuts when they get to college. Better to let them be a part of the real world so you can prepare them for the pitfalls in life, IMHO. The homeschooled kids I knew were very strange growing up and then very wild later on.

 

[LaSainte]

I think the main problem with Catholic schools is what are often horrible academics and abysmal curriculums. No supplies or libraries or labs to really speak of. My mom just left teaching at one because she couldn’t in good conscience teach there any longer and it is one of the “best” schools in a very large city. I would be very careful.

 

[Debora123]

Agreed, Deborah.

Watch out when you homeschool your kids though. You can’t shelter them from the real world forever. These kids tend to go nuts when they get to college. Better to let them be a part of the real world so you can prepare them for the pitfalls in life, IMHO. The homeschooled kids I knew were very strange growing up and then very wild later on.

Oh trust me, I do NOT intend on homeschooling my future kids.

From when I was 9 years old to when I finally married and moved out of my parents house at 24, I lived next door to a very conservative Catholic couple who home schooled all 3 of their boys from kindergarten to 12th grade. They were very strange kids and often got teased by the other kids around the neighborhood… which was sad, but it seems like they would purposely draw negative attention to themselves.

Anyway, now that they are all grown up, this is where they are now:

The oldest went off to college in Colorado, started doing drugs/partying too much, failed out of school and is now working at a grocery store living with his parents.

The middle son also went off to college out of state and ended up impregnating his first girlfriend after they were dating for 1 year. They ended up getting married but have no money and are also both living with his parents. Now his wife is pregnant again.

The youngest son left for college out of state a year ago but got severely depressed from being away from his mom and started failing classes. So now the mom is going to leave her husband and move to where her son goes to school. She’s going to live with him and help him through school until he is done.

…I guess you could say the whole concept of home schooling has left a rather nasty taste in my mouth.

 

[cathlicconvert]

Agreed, Deborah.

Watch out when you homeschool your kids though. You can’t shelter them from the real world forever. These kids tend to go nuts when they get to college. Better to let them be a part of the real world so you can prepare them for the pitfalls in life, IMHO. The homeschooled kids I knew were very strange growing up and then very wild later on.

That is a homeschooling stereotype that is very far from the truth. The only reason some seem weird/strange is because when somebody meets a odd kid and find out they are home schooled, they blame it on that. Believe me there were plenty of odd kids at my school growing up. As far as them going wild that has more to do with how they are raised and brought up. If they are strong in their faith and relationship with Christ than there should be no issue when they leave the home… not to mention home schooling doesn’t = being completely sheltered until they are 18…

I think the main problem with Catholic schools is what are often horrible academics and abysmal curriculums. No supplies or libraries or labs to really speak of. My mom just left teaching at one because she couldn’t in good conscience teach there any longer and it is one of the “best” schools in a very large city. I would be very careful.

This could be… but it seems many people send their child to Catholic school for the higher quality of education. I know the school attached to our church just recently got ranked in the top 50 high schools in the U.S. and they’ve only been open for 10-15 years. Most of the other schools around are failing miserably.

 

[Debora123]

Here’s another one:

What if the teacher masturbates or occasionally looks at porn? Should we make sure she/he never does this either before, God forbid, teaching our kids mathematics??

 

[cathlicconvert]

Here’s another one:

What if the teacher masturbates or occasionally looks at porn? Should we make sure she/he never does this either before, God forbid, teaching our kids mathematics??

Well my wrestling coach in High school was actually fired for looking at porn… he was a gym teacher.

 

[Debora123]

Well my wrestling coach in High school was actually fired for looking at porn… he was a gym teacher.

So is this a yes then? You think people who masturbate or occasionally look at porn (in the privacy of their own homes, mind you, not at the school while on the clock) should be fired from teaching jobs?

Because you know, masturbation isn’t any less a sin as homosexual activity. Both are mortal sins of the flesh.

 

[Debora123]

Well my wrestling coach in High school was actually fired for looking at porn… he was a gym teacher.

Was he looking at porn in the school, while on the clock? Or did someone break into his house and hack his HOME computer and discover that he was visiting porn sites late at night during his OWN time?

 

[cathlicconvert]

So is this a yes then? You think people who masturbate or occasionally look at porn (in the privacy of their own homes, mind you, not at the school while on the clock) should be fired from teaching jobs?

Because you know, masturbation isn’t any less a sin as homosexual activity. Both are mortal sins of the flesh.

IMO masturbation would be a hard thing to crack down on. If it were openly apparent that the teacher was regularly masturbating with no concern to try to break that addiction, then yes, they should be fired. HOWEVER, I hardly think this would be the case with this issue.

The OP was asking about a actively (apparently anyways) homosexual couple. This would be hard to hide/cover up (and I don’t understand why they would if they don’t think there is anything wrong with it). Students/parents could see the couple out together, be aware that they live together, see things on social networking sites, etc.

 

[cathlicconvert]

Was he looking at porn in the school, while on the clock? Or did someone break into his house and hack his HOME computer and discover that he was visiting porn sites late at night during his OWN time?

I’m fairly certain it was at school… I understand the difference, and my previous post addresses my view on this matter.

I also am fairly certain that any orthodox church teaching would back up my mind set… but I am not as handy with resources as many are on here.

I appreciate your concern for others… but I do feel that we need to differentiate between Catholic schools and public school standards… otherwise what is the point?

 

[Debora123]

IMO masturbation would be a hard thing to crack down on. If it were openly apparent that the teacher was regularly masturbating with no concern to try to break that addiction, then yes, they should be fired. HOWEVER, I hardly think this would be the case with this issue.

The OP was asking about a actively (apparently anyways) homosexual couple. This would be hard to hide/cover up (and I don’t understand why they would if they don’t think there is anything wrong with it). Students/parents could see the couple out together, be aware that they live together, see things on social networking sites, etc.

So basically, you’re saying that if you can’t SEE the sin outwardly, it’s ok?

I don’t see how this would make a difference either way in how the teacher would teach a class… so I still don’t see why it matters.

And also, I don’t remember if it was you or not, but someone on here also mentioned they don’t think people who use ABC should be teachers either. And there is no way of cracking down on that. Neither is it something public or open. So yeah, you’ve lost me.

 

[Debora123]

The proof was all over a popular social media website, her nor her partners profile was set to private and there were pictures, language and conversations that prove it. The proof was printed and sent to the principal and superintendent. They asked her outright and she denied it and now the teacher and her “friend’s” profiles are set to private. This is not a witch hunt, she is a really nice girl. I don’t have a problem with her, I have a problem that she is a teacher in a Catholic School. Today, I heard there isn’t anything they can do.

…And that is absolutely correct.

 

[Debora123]

I’m fairly certain it was at school… I understand the difference, and my previous post addresses my view on this matter.

I also am fairly certain that any orthodox church teaching would back up my mind set… but I am not as handy with resources as many are on here.

I appreciate your concern for others… but I do feel that we need to differentiate between Catholic schools and public school standards… otherwise what is the point?

The difference is that Catholic school has religion class. EVEN IF the religion teacher doesn’t live a perfect life style, she still has to follow the curriculum and teach the material in the book that was assigned to the class. She is not allowed to talk about her personal life or give her personal views on morals. She has to teach what is in the book, and follow a certain standard of morality when addressing the class.

So yes, I still fail to see how what the teacher does at her home, in her personal life, would make a difference - whether that be masturbation, porn use, ABC use, living with a boyfriend, or having a homosexual relationship.

 

[LaSainte]

Oh trust me, I do NOT intend on homeschooling my future kids.

From when I was 9 years old to when I finally married and moved out of my parents house at 24, I lived next door to a very conservative Catholic couple who home schooled all 3 of their boys from kindergarten to 12th grade. They were very strange kids and often got teased by the other kids around the neighborhood… which was sad, but it seems like they would purposely draw negative attention to themselves.

Anyway, now that they are all grown up, this is where they are now:

The oldest went off to college in Colorado, started doing drugs/partying too much, failed out of school and is now working at a grocery store living with his parents.

The middle son also went off to college out of state and ended up impregnating his first girlfriend after they were dating for 1 year. They ended up getting married but have no money and are also both living with his parents. Now his wife is pregnant again.

The youngest son left for college out of state a year ago but got severely depressed from being away from his mom and started failing classes. So now the mom is going to leave her husband and move to where her son goes to school. She’s going to live with him and help him through school until he is done.

…I guess you could say the whole concept of home schooling has left a rather nasty taste in my mouth.

Wow. Yes, the problem with homeschooling is that the kids have to leave home eventually. I would rather they went to a public school while they are under my care, so that when they come home asking “Why does Sally have 2 mommies?”, we can have an open and frank discussion about it, or if they start smoking pot or drinking in high school, I will most likely know about it and can nip it in the bud. Better to have them confronted with the world while they are under my roof and I can take proactive steps to educate them over the years then have them be bombarded with sex, drugs and rock and roll the second they set foot out the door for college.

The coping skills that you learn at school throughout your formative years is SO important for learning to say no to temptations as you get older and have more autonomy, and there is just no replacing that, IMO.

Also, I agree with you on this gay teacher thing, especially since this is a grade school and not a high school or something. Second graders are not going to be pulling up this woman’s Facebook profile and seeing that she has a girlfriend and understanding what that entails. We can’t start firing everyone from Catholic schools who commits a sin, and like you said, all mortal sins are equal in their effects, so why not fire people who don’t go to Mass every week? We are ALL sinners.

 

[buffalo]

Really? So the law doesn’t apply to Catholic schools?

I can see it being legal if there was a contract with conduct clauses that was very specific to include something like this, but I’m willing to bet there wasn’t one. Especially because it seems she would never have taken the job if this were the case.

Can you show me a law that pertains to this?

I have seen teacher contracts and they spell it out. Now I am not sure this one did.

If you sign a contract that you agree to practice Catholic values you need to be true to it. Otherwise, no sour grapes.

 

[buffalo]

I honestly don’t see what the big deal is, but to each their own I guess.

I mean, I went to a Catholic school and I’m sure there were teachers there who were sinners (just like gasp ALL of us!), but no one would ever know because they didn’t talk about their personal lives or give their opinions on morals. The religion teachers taught religion class the same way you’d teach all other classes - they followed the curriculum, and taught according to whatever the religion book said. So I see no problem whatsoever.



But I agree, if people are going to be this picky, it is better to homeschool.

I can tell you there will be a problem. If the teacher is living the homosexual act and in a class that subject comes up, the children will not get the Catholic teaching on this. Only a fool would believe otherwise.

I have personally seen it with abortion and contraception. I have seen it with the Real Presence. My own child reported that class discussion one day centered on Hillary Clinton’s pro-death abortion position. The teacher poo pooed the abortion part and proceeded to overstep her bounds by telling children they could vote for her because abortion is a “little” issue.

Lifestyle choices affect teaching.

 

[buffalo]

So is this a yes then? You think people who masturbate or occasionally look at porn (in the privacy of their own homes, mind you, not at the school while on the clock) should be fired from teaching jobs?

Because you know, masturbation isn’t any less a sin as homosexual activity. Both are mortal sins of the flesh.

Private sin is not enforceable, but make no mistake about it, it affects a persons public attitude.

Now if that same teacher did not/could not take a Catholic stance and convey the teaching properly it is an issue. Children are deprived of the truth.

 

[Suslar]

Most Dioceses have established standards for personnel who serve as Catholic educators. These standards apply to all who have responsibility for Catholic education - including parish catechists, Catholic school teachers, catechetical leaders and principals. By virtue of their ministry, these educators are role models for adults, youth, and children. Therefore, they are called to be well informed in Catholic teaching, dedicated to ongoing formation, and committed to a Catholic way of life and witness.

IMO, no one can judge or evaluate the state of a person’s soul. No one can know with certainty what another does in private. No one can know if one “is a sinner” except in knowing that we all are sinners. The question is not if a teacher should be fired because they sin. That is lubricious because who among us could cast the first stone? The question is, does this person, who holds a position of influence over others, give cause for scandal? If the answer is “yes”, there is no reason to keep the person on staff.

According to St. Thomas, scandal is a word or action evil in itself, which occasions another’s spiritual ruin. It is a word or action, that is either an external act—for an internal act can have no influence on the conduct of another—or the omission of an external act, because to omit what one should do is equivalent to doing what is forbidden; it must be evil in itself, or in appearance. It is not the physical cause of a neighbor’s sin, but only the moral cause, or occasion.

Debora, when you wrote, “I still fail to see how what the teacher does at her home, in her personal life, would make a difference - whether that be masturbation, porn use, ABC use, living with a boyfriend, or having a homosexual relationship.” You are right – the teacher’s personal life is not in question unless or until it becomes public knowledge and causes scandal.

One real life example of this was a youth minister who was unmarried but pregnant. The pastor could do nothing until she was obviously showing and then he asked if she was indeed pregnant. She confirmed it and was removed from the position. The pastor’s reasoning? Unwed motherhood is not the example we’d like to give the teenagers in the parish. Her outward appearance gave scandal to many and it violated the code of ethics she willingly agreed to follow.

From the Catechism:
2284 Scandal is an attitude or behavior which leads another to do evil. The person who gives scandal becomes his neighbor’s tempter. He damages virtue and integrity; he may even draw his brother into spiritual death. Scandal is a grave offense if by deed or omission another is deliberately led into a grave offense.

2285 Scandal takes on a particular gravity by reason of the authority of those who cause it or the weakness of those who are scandalized. It prompted our Lord to utter this curse: “Whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened round his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.” Scandal is grave when given by those who by nature or office are obliged to teach and educate others. Jesus reproaches the scribes and Pharisees on this account: he likens them to wolves in sheep’s clothing.

2286 Scandal can be provoked by laws or institutions, by fashion or opinion.
Therefore, they are guilty of scandal who establish laws or social structures leading to the decline of morals and the corruption of religious practice, or to "social conditions, that, intentionally or not, make Christian conduct and obedience to the Commandments difficult and practically impossible. This is also true of business leaders who makes rules encouraging fraud, teachers who provoke their children to anger, or manipulators of public opinion who turn it away from moral values.

2287 Anyone who uses the power at his disposal in such a way that it leads others to do wrong becomes guilty of scandal and responsible for the evil that he has directly or indirectly encouraged. “Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!” Luke 17:1