Homosexuality and Hope

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

There is hope that this body and its afflections, for this sin, Homosexuality, focused on the kingdom of man, not the Kingdom of God may be realized in the moment of what is hoped for knowing that hope can be fulfilled in only one way…in Christ…and to know that the shackles of whatever sin it is, particularly the sin of homosexuality,there is hope for other than this world…

Coptic, it would be great if you could actually articulate your vision of hope referred to in the title of this thread as opposed to delivering up some word salad featuring the word “hope.” (What does it mean to hope that a body “be realized in the moment of what is hoped for knowing”?)

If the hope you’re trying to articulate is no different from the hope anyone else can find in a life lived in, through and with Christ…then what’s with the focus on conversion therapy as if it is or should be the ultimate hope of folks who are same-sex attracted? Particularly when the catechism is clear that you can be same-sex attracted and live a moral Christian life?

If you’re saying there is hope in Christ, what does that hope look like for same-sex attracted or “homosexual persons” (to use the catechism’s phrase), and how is it lived? Are we suddenly perfect people when we come to find ourselves in Christ, or are we still seeing through a glass darkly, still on the journey out of sin and into life? With reference to the title of this thread, what does that journey out of sin and into life look like for a homosexual person? Can you express the quality of the journey in positive terms as opposed to purely negative ones?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Coptic, it would be great if you could actually articulate your vision of hope referred to in the title of this thread as opposed to delivering up some word salad featuring the word “hope.” (What does it mean to hope that a body “be realized in the moment of what is hoped for knowing”?)

If the hope you’re trying to articulate is no different from the hope anyone else can find in a life lived in, through and with Christ…then what’s with the focus on conversion therapy as if it is or should be the ultimate hope of folks who are same-sex attracted? Particularly when the catechism is clear that you can be same-sex attracted and live a moral Christian life?

Are we suddenly perfect people when we come to find ourselves in Christ, or are we still seeing through a glass darkly, still on the journey out of sin and into life? With reference to the title of this thread, what does that journey out of sin and into life look like for a homosexual person? Can you express the quality of the journey in positive terms as opposed to purely negative ones?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

If you’re saying there is hope in Christ, what does that hope look like for same-sex attracted or “homosexual persons” (to use the catechism’s phrase), and how is it lived?

with joy

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

with joy

That’s facile, Coptic, and verging on the jingoistic. It’s easy to tell another person that they should live their life with joy when you don’t have to live their life.

So…what does it mean to live your life with joy, particularly if you’re same-sex attracted and if same-sex attraction must apparently be seen as such a great and horrible burden (otherwise why would so many say that people “suffer” from or with “SSA”)?

To a happy practicing homosexual who believes his or life is useful and fulfilling and capable of and characterized by joy, what’s the new vision of joy that you’d offer him or her which would make them seriously question whether or not their current life is truly as joyful as they think?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Thank you Coptic for proving that the only hope gays everywhere have to look forward to is death and teaching them they are far better off dead than alive*

*yes, I’m being facetious, maybe a little too much

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

If the hope you’re trying to articulate is no different from the hope anyone else can find in a life lived in, through and with Christ…then what’s with the focus on conversion therapy as if it is or should be the ultimate hope of folks who are same-sex attracted? Particularly when the catechism is clear that you can be same-sex attracted and live a moral Christian life?

If you’re saying there is hope in Christ, what does that hope look like for same-sex attracted or “homosexual persons” (to use the catechism’s phrase), and how is it lived? Are we suddenly perfect people when we come to find ourselves in Christ, or are we still seeing through a glass darkly, still on the journey out of sin and into life? With reference to the title of this thread, what does that journey out of sin and into life look like for a homosexual person? Can you express the quality of the journey in positive terms as opposed to purely negative ones?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

Coptic, it would be great if you could actually articulate your vision of hope referred to in the title of this thread as opposed to delivering up some word salad featuring the word “hope.” (What does it mean to hope that a body “be realized in the moment of what is hoped for knowing”?)

You accepted the DC because you say it is because of the larger tradition of the church and other reasons.

You do not accept the authority of the OHCAC, but you cannot dismiss the wisdom…

What you call word salad is referenced from Spe Salvi, Benedict XVI…message on hope, suffering and salvation…

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html

ENCYCLICAL LETTER
SPE SALVI
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
BENEDICT XVI
TO THE BISHOPS
PRIESTS AND DEACONS
MEN AND WOMEN RELIGIOUS
AND ALL THE LAY FAITHFUL
ON CHRISTIAN HOPE

1. As far as the two great themes of “reason” and “freedom” are concerned, here we can only touch upon the issues connected with them. Yes indeed, reason is God’s great gift to man, and the victory of reason over unreason is also a goal of the Christian life. But when does reason truly triumph? When it is detached from God? When it has become blind to God? Is the reason behind action and capacity for action the whole of reason? If progress, in order to be progress, needs moral growth on the part of humanity, then the reason behind action and capacity for action is likewise urgently in need of integration through reason’s openness to the saving forces of faith, to the differentiation between good and evil.

The best I can offer you is that all those that sin should hope, all those subject to sin should hope, all those that hope may suffer and that suffering and hope will lead to salvation…

If you find that you cannot discern what the message of Hope is from the CMA and Spe Salvi…then I am at a loss to help you understand…I cannot do better than Benedict the XVI in articulating what true Hope is…

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

That’s facile, Coptic, and verging on the jingoistic. It’s easy to tell another person that they should live their life with joy when you don’t have to live their life.

So…what does it mean to live your life with joy, particularly if you’re same-sex attracted and if same-sex attraction must apparently be seen as such a great and horrible burden (otherwise why would so many say that people “suffer” from or with “SSA”)?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

To a happy practicing homosexual who believes his or life is useful and fulfilling and capable of and characterized by joy, what’s the new vision of joy that you’d offer him or her which would make them seriously question whether or not their current life is truly as joyful as they think?

This is an important insight that would best be answered by looking at what is called the Axis of Change…this requires 4 elements…

Motivation
Decision
Creation
Solidification

Motivation is determined by something is more pleasurable/positive than the alternative that is unpleasurable/painful. We are motiviated towards pleasure and away from pain. A practicing Homosexual is potentially in pleasure in their state and to move away from what serves as pleasure to other than that state may complicate the motivation…if the status of being a practicing homosexual is painful, undesireable, and the pleasure has less service in the life of that practice then looking forward to a life that has other than what is experienced would be motivation for change.

A decision to change has to be made. Consequence for changing and not changing are crucial. If I do this or that then what. Unless some sort of decision is made then no change occurs.

Creating a plan and getting feedback on that plan allows for the continuation of expected change recalling the motivation and decision.

Once a plan is established based on motivation, decision and creation then solidification of that change is possible…

If a practicing homosexual, happy, filled with they to believe joy, not understanding that it is an unnatural, disordered life will see no reason to decide, move away from, create or solidify any plans to change and will stay where they are believing they have true joy, when in fact they do not…

I hope that you can understand this…

 

[CopticChristian]

Thank you Coptic for proving that the only hope gays everywhere have to look forward to is death and teaching them they are far better off dead than alive*

*yes, I’m being facetious, maybe a little too much

Mark,

I cannot believe that you understand. Yes, my brother…you have found the truth…you have found what all Christians think and believe…Praise the Lord…you, me, everyone that is looking for something we do not have…was stated by Paul…

We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

I was beginning to think you did not get it…alleluia, alleluia, alleluia, alleluia, ah…lay…lu ya…yippee for Mark…

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

What you call word salad is referenced from Spe Salvi, Benedict XVI…message on hope, suffering and salvation…

What I called word salad was what you wrote, not what you quoted.

The best I can offer you is that all those that sin should hope, all those subject to sin should hope, all those that hope may suffer and that suffering and hope will lead to salvation…

Hope in what and for what and in what way? You’re very good with casually saying that people should hope or people should live lives of joy. You’re very good with bandying the words “hope” and “joy” about as if they’re mere concepts, or as if a theoretical or intellectual apprehension of them can substitute of for an actual *experience *of them.

But how can you tell someone whom you believe has no real hope and no real grasp on hope that they should have hope…and then expect them to understand what you mean? You need to show them hope.

How can you tell someone whom you believe has no real joy and no grasp on what that means that they should live a joyful life…and expect them to know what that is? You need to show them what joy looks like and give them an experience of the joy to which they’re called.

In liturgical language, you need to give them a foretaste of the feast to come.

You can’t expect people to desire to participate in a vision of hope and joy that you can’t even reasonably articulate. And beyond articulating it, you can’t expect them to live into it if you don’t or can’t *show it *to them by going to them where they are, by walking with them, and by giving them an experience, even if only a glimmer, of the hope and joy to which they’re called.

If you find that you cannot discern what the message of Hope is from the CMA and Spe Salvi…then I am at a loss to help you understand…I cannot do better than Benedict the XVI in articulating what true Hope is…

That’s a cop-out. Why? Because I’m having this conversation here, now, with* you*, not with Benedict.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

This is an important insight that would best be answered by looking at what is called the Axis of Change…this requires 4 elements…

Motivation
Decision
Creation
Solidification

Motivation is determined by something is more pleasurable/positive than the alternative that is unpleasurable/painful. We are motiviated towards pleasure and away from pain. A practicing Homosexual is potentially in pleasure in their state and to move away from what serves as pleasure to other than that state may complicate the motivation…if the status of being a practicing homosexual is painful, undesireable, and the pleasure has less service in the life of that practice then looking forward to a life that has other than what is experienced would be motivation for change.

A decision to change has to be made. Consequence for changing and not changing are crucial. If I do this or that then what. Unless some sort of decision is made then no change occurs.

Creating a plan and getting feedback on that plan allows for the continuation of expected change recalling the motivation and decision.

Once a plan is established based on motivation, decision and creation then solidification of that change is possible…

So what? Your theory of behavioral change and whether or not it’s efficacious is not at issue here and is largely superfluous.

If a practicing homosexual, happy, filled with they to believe joy, not understanding that it is an unnatural, disordered life will see no reason to decide, move away from, create or solidify any plans to change and will stay where they are believing they have true joy, when in fact they do not…

How do you show them that what they think is joy is not true joy if not by meeting them where they are and showing them what true joy is?

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

What I called word salad was what you wrote, not what you quoted.

Hope in what and for what and in what way? You’re very good with casually saying that people should hope or people should live lives of joy. You’re very good with bandying the words “hope” and “joy” about as if they’re mere concepts, or as if a theoretical or intellectual apprehension of them can substitute of for an actual *experience *of them.

But how can you tell someone whom you believe has no real hope and no real grasp on hope that they should have hope…and then expect them to understand what you mean? You need to show them hope.

How can you tell someone whom you believe has no real joy and no grasp on what that means that they should live a joyful life…and expect them to know what that is? You need to show them what joy looks like and give them an experience of the joy to which they’re called.

In liturgical language, you need to give them a foretaste of the feast to come.

You can’t expect people to desire to participate in a vision of hope and joy that you can’t even reasonably articulate. And beyond articulating it, you can’t expect them to live into it if you don’t or can’t *show it *to them by going to them where they are, by walking with them, and by giving them an experience, even if only a glimmer, of the hope and joy to which they’re called.

That’s a cop-out. Why? Because I’m having this conversation here, now, with* you*, not with Benedict.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

You may want to read Man’s Search for Meaning, by Frankl…he did not identify what you say…you have to show them hope…he identified people that had hope…if you cannot understand, if you cannot see, if you cannot find hope…then what can be said…if you believe that there is hope and look for it, you may find it.

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

So what? Your theory of behavioral change and whether or not it’s efficacious is not at issue here and is largely superfluous.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

How do you show them that what they think is joy is not true joy if not by meeting them where they are and showing them what true joy is?

The OHCAC teaches in the Catechism, that many refer to, that God calls all…and that calling is relentless…we respond to some degree or another…the best I can say is that wherever you find yourself, even on these threads, seeing that absent any information in your life, that you are called to question that calling…then all I can suggest is to look to the revealed truths of the Church…here is where you find hope…

I cannot show anyone anything they don’t want to see…

What do you want to see?

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Mark,

I cannot believe that you understand. Yes, my brother…you have found the truth…you have found what all Christians think and believe…Praise the Lord…you, me, everyone that is looking for something we do not have…was stated by Paul…

I was beginning to think you did not get it…alleluia, alleluia, alleluia, alleluia, ah…lay…lu ya…yippee for Mark…

While there are a host of things that I admire about Dakota and a host of good things to which he witnesses in his writing on this board which I would like to emulate in my own life…I am, unfortunately, not Dakota.

Also? If you think Christianity is about being death-seeking or death-centeredness or that the message of Christianity, the Good News of the Gospel, can be encapsulated in the phrase “We’re better off dead,” or paraphrased by that old Greek sigh, “Count no man happy 'til he’s dead,” then I’m afraid that you dangerously and, in fact, perversely misconstrue the Gospel of Jesus Christ, its Apostle Paul, and the very nature of the Triune God.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

I cannot show anyone anything they don’t want to see…

Another cop-out. Also a form of blaming the victim or saying, “Oh, you didn’t get it? Well then I guess you didn’t want to get it. Tough luck for you. Have a nice life in the abyss.”

I believe in a God who loved me before I was capable of loving him, who did not say of humanity, “I can’t show them love until they properly love me first.”

If what you have to show is compelling, then people will be compelled. As Jeremiah says, “You enticed me and I was enticed.”

Whether they know it or not, people want the Good News, Coptic. If you can’t actually show it to them, that’s certainly sad for them, but sad for you, too.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

Another cop-out. Also a form of blaming the victim or saying, “Oh, you didn’t get it? Well then I guess you didn’t want to get it. Tough luck for you. Have a nice life in the abyss.”

I believe in a God who loved me before I was capable of loving him, who did not say of humanity, “I can’t show them love until they properly love me first.”

If what you have to show is compelling, then people will be compelled. As Jeremiah says, “You enticed me and I was enticed.”

Whether they know it or not, people want the Good News, Coptic. If you can’t actually show it to them, that’s certainly sad for them, but sad for you, too.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

all I can say is that God calls you, loves you, wants you, and nothing would make God happier than to embrace any sinner, Prostitute that abandons selling their body, Pornographer that abandons the business and Homosexual that abandons acting out their attraction with one person or many…any sinner in their sin is called to abandon their sin to approach the Holy God…

Just keep your ears open and God will speak to you…you find my words deafening…

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Mark,

I cannot believe that you understand. Yes, my brother…you have found the truth…you have found what all Christians think and believe…Praise the Lord…you, me, everyone that is looking for something we do not have…was stated by Paul…

I was beginning to think you did not get it…alleluia, alleluia, alleluia, alleluia, ah…lay…lu ya…yippee for Mark…

I am not Mark, my screen name is Dakota

How very neo-Manichaeian of you.

 

[CopticChristian]

I am not Mark, my screen name is Dakota

How very neo-Manichaeian of you.

Dakota I am not Mark Roberts,

It is probably my age creeping up on me…

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

While there are a host of things that I admire about Dakota and a host of good things to which he witnesses in his writing on this board which I would like to emulate in my own life…I am, unfortunately, not Dakota.

Also? If you think Christianity is about being death-seeking or death-centeredness or that the message of Christianity, the Good News of the Gospel, can be encapsulated in the phrase “We’re better off dead,” or paraphrased by that old Greek sigh, “Count no man happy 'til he’s dead,” then I’m afraid that you dangerously and, in fact, perversely misconstrue the Gospel of Jesus Christ, its Apostle Paul, and the very nature of the Triune God.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias

Mark,

Does the gospel call for acceptance of sodomy and any other sexual contact by two men…because if it does I cannot recall that part of it. Is this your understanding of the gospel?

 

[CopticChristian]

argument is one thing, genuine scientific research is another. I think the latter is being done below the political radar of the advocacy groups.

The incidence of teenage suicide related to homosexual identity and to the phenomenon of bullying betrays how serious the matter is.

I think science is on the threshold of a vast area of scientific research into the human genome and epigenome. Homosexuality research is probably small but not non-existent in this area of the study of diseases with a genetic basis.

I can’t imagine that homosexuality does not have a genetic involvement. Individuals around the world in all cultures going back throughout recorded history display homosexual orientation. I consider this strong anecdotal evidence of a physical basis for the disorder.

The medical establishment has outdated views, I’m sure, as suggested earlier. Prostate cancer has been treated surgically, but is now being treated with drugs, as therapies emerge. I wouldn’t call the establishment position Fundamentalism. They simply retreat when they don’t have a definitive treatment modality.

If a cure for homosexuality was found, it would be more popular than treatments for erectile dysfunction. The current page of history of this subject would be quickly turned.
The sooner the better.

Sirach,

Research is being inhibited by the move of the APA and the LGBT to silence anyone that disagrees with them as evidenced by Calfiornia SB-1172, that will be defeated in April. After that there should be more information available.

In the meantime we need to look to othe organizations…

 

[CopticChristian]

argument is one thing, genuine scientific research is another. I think the latter is being done below the political radar of the advocacy groups.

The incidence of teenage suicide related to homosexual identity and to the phenomenon of bullying betrays how serious the matter is.

I think science is on the threshold of a vast area of scientific research into the human genome and epigenome. Homosexuality research is probably small but not non-existent in this area of the study of diseases with a genetic basis.

I can’t imagine that homosexuality does not have a genetic involvement. Individuals around the world in all cultures going back throughout recorded history display homosexual orientation. I consider this strong anecdotal evidence of a physical basis for the disorder.

The medical establishment has outdated views, I’m sure, as suggested earlier. Prostate cancer has been treated surgically, but is now being treated with drugs, as therapies emerge. I wouldn’t call the establishment position Fundamentalism. They simply retreat when they don’t have a definitive treatment modality.

If a cure for homosexuality was found, it would be more popular than treatments for erectile dysfunction. The current page of history of this subject would be quickly turned.
The sooner the better.

Sirach,

You might want to look at the Canadian Bishop’s statement concerning this issue, it is well put…

cccb.ca/site/images/stori…try-ssa_en.pdf

1. In this document the expression “person with same-sex attraction” refers to one who feels an erotic and emotional attraction, which is predominant and not merely episodic, towards persons of the same sex, whether with or without sexual relations. The terms “gay” and “lesbian” are not used to define people in the Church’s official teachings and documents. Although these words are common terms in current speech, and many people use them to describe themselves, they do not describe persons with the fullness and richness that the Church recognizes and respects in every man or woman. Instead, “gay” and “lesbian” are often cultural definitions for people and movements
   that have accepted homosexual acts and behaviours as morally good.

1. In her teaching, however, the Church never condemns persons with same-sex attraction. She carefully distinguishes between an individual’s inclinations or feelings – some of which are transitory and/or situational and others which are deep-seated or permanent – and one’s actions. While homosexual acts are always objectively wrong, same-sex inclinations are not in themselves sinful or a moral failing.