Homosexuality and marriage

[Kolbe300]

But there’s a great deal of back story to the way people “define” marriage…

I was speaking of Buffalo’s definition of the word homosexual, not the definition of marriage. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Apolojez]

That is lowering the bar. The best situation is an intact family with a father in the home. Deep down everyone knows this.

I couldn’t disagree more. The best situation is for a child to be loved, nurtured and supported unconditionally. Gender means diddly.

 

[Apolojez]

Which one is the father? Which one is the mother? A child deserves both biologic parents. They complement each other to the benefit of the child.

Sure a child deserves both biological parents but we all know that doesn’t always happen. Gay couples cannot procreate so they would naturally adopt. More couples available to adopt orphans is a good thing. Would you prefer a child grow up in foster homes feeling unwanted rather than a gay or lesbian couple adopting them and providing them stability in their life?

 

[pete_29]

I couldn’t disagree more. The best situation is for a child to be loved, nurtured and supported unconditionally. Gender means diddly.

Gender means something to God or he wouldn’t have created us male and female.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

buffalo

**Now as a priest how would you counsel them? Say one came into the confessional, read scripture and asked you this - “I just found out sodomy is wrong.” Would you affirm them and counsel them to continue in good conscience? Or would you try to get them on the right road? **

Good question, but don’t expect an honest answer. We have been feeding a troll.

 

[SonSearcher]

I assure you, my compassion is not a disguise. It is that compassion that I see as the essential nature of Jesus. What do you think the cross was about? What do you make of John3:17?

If I were the devil trying to undermine the Church, I would convince people that their self-righteousness is a sign of God’s favor, and I would alert them to the failings of others, pretty much like the parable of the Pharisee and the Publican (Tax Collector).

Please don’t presume I think you are the Devil himself, and please don’t confuse my obedience for self-righteousness. I don’t plan to be like the Pharisee anytime soon.

And nowhere do I state you are trying to “undermine” the Church. I am merely stating that you are professing a dissenting “opinion” with no regard for what the Church says on the matter. Also you say things like “well the Church is not only hierarchy, but laity, and women religious…etc… how can you deny three fourths of the Church a voice?”

I can deny it because the Church is not a democracy. And God in Christ Jesus didn’t come to Earth and give keys to everyone and their mother to do as they wish. He gave them to Peter thus establishing Jesus Christ’s Church on Earth.

I am an obedient servant of our Church a follower of the law. Here are some words of St. Maximillian Kolbe on the importance of obedience.

“The superiors can make mistakes, but we in obeying can never make a mistake. There is only one exception: if a superior should ever command a thing clearly evident to be a sin, even the smallest sin. This is a thing that does not happen in practice. In such a case the superior would not be the representative of God, and we would not be obliged to obey him. Apart from our superiors we cannot trust our reason, which can only make a mistake Only God, only He is , infallable, most holy, most loving, He is our Lord, Father, Creator, End, Reason, Strength, Love…our everything.”

And on John 3:17, of course Jesus doesn’t condemn the world, God made it, and He said it was good. But Jesus also stated “go and sin no more” so we can assume He has no need of sin and in that He can condemn.

 

[Apolojez]

These states have redefined marriage.

Exactly. Now the rest of the states and the governmental laws should redefine it as well. You act as if the definition of a word cannot be changed over time.

I can recall one major change recently in the definition of the word “rape” to include men. You see “by definition” a man could not technically be “raped” for over 80 years.

 

[SonSearcher]

buffalo

**Now as a priest how would you counsel them? Say one came into the confessional, read scripture and asked you this - “I just found out sodomy is wrong.” Would you affirm them and counsel them to continue in good conscience? Or would you try to get them on the right road? **

Good question, but don’t expect an honest answer. We have been feeding a troll.

I love feeding them. gets my chops sharpened for the real stuff.

 

[Apolojez]

Gender means something to God or he wouldn’t have created us male and female.

You avoid my point though. Love, compassion, nurturing, support, guidance are not gender specific and therefore it means diddly when it comes to being a parent.

 

[pete_29]

You avoid my point though. Love, compassion, nurturing, support, guidance are not gender specific and therefore it means diddly when it comes to being a parent.

Since God created men in families to be fathers , sons, and brothers, and women to be mothers, daughters, and sisters, I’m not sure God would agree with you on this. Unless you think God is wrong in his creation, that is. Love, compassion, nurturing, support, and guidance are best served in accordance with God’s will, not man’s. His will is pretty clear on this as it is He that created us male and female.

 

[Apolojez]

Since God created men in families to be fathers , sons, and brothers, and women to be mothers, daughters, and sisters, I’m not sure God would agree with you on this. Unless you think God is wrong in his creation, that is. Love, compassion, nurturing, support, and guidance are best served in accordance with God’s will, not man’s. His will is pretty clear on this as it is He that created us male and female.

You dance well.

 

[loozcannon]

This thread has been going on and on, so I figured I’d give my own :twocents:.

Look I’m no great philosopher, but we all must agree that God (and therefore Christ) is THE TRUTH. The good Lord established His Church on this earth. His Church has the Catechism, which, as we all know, pretty much lays out what we, as Catholics, are to believe. It’s in black and white.

Now, if any Catholic (or anyone for that matter) wants to know the Church’s position on something, a quick Google search can lead you to the Catechism. Consider the Catechism the “minimum requirements” if you will. As such, you can perhaps increase your understanding or better define their points, but one cannot contradict what’s written.

Essentially Christ’s Church, in Her infinite wisdom, has already made known what we are to believe regarding individuals with SSA, and She has also made known Her definition of marriage.

If Christ is THE TRUTH, and He Himself has granted His Church the ability to persevere throughout the ages, then one must have faith that what the Church teaches is the same truth that has been laid out for us by Christ Himself.

In short, to deviate from the Church teaches, is to deny that Christ is THE TRUTH. And to deviate from the Church, puts one in schism.

The truth is not now, nor has it ever been, relative. Christ is counter-cultural.

The truth about marriage and people with SSA has already been established. I for one will be adhering to the truth.

IMHO, that’s the end of it.

 

[SonSearcher]

This thread has been going on and on, so I figured I’d give my own :twocents:.

Look I’m no great philosopher, but we all must agree that God (and therefore Christ) is THE TRUTH. The good Lord established His Church on this earth. His Church has the Catechism, which, as we all know, pretty much lays out what we, as Catholics, are to believe. It’s in black and white.

Now, if any Catholic (or anyone for that matter) wants to know the Church’s position on something, a quick Google search can lead you to the Catechism. Consider the Catechism the “minimum requirements” if you will. As such, you can perhaps increase your understanding or better define their points, but one cannot contradict what’s written.

Essentially Christ’s Church, in Her infinite wisdom, has already made known what we are to believe regarding individuals with SSA, and She has also made known Her definition of marriage.

If Christ is THE TRUTH, and He Himself has granted His Church the ability to persevere throughout the ages, then one must have faith that what the Church teaches is the same truth that has been laid out for us by Christ Himself.

In short, to deviate from the Church teaches, is to deny that Christ is THE TRUTH. And to deviate from the Church, puts one in schism.

The truth is not now, nor has it ever been, relative. Christ is counter-cultural.

The truth about marriage and people with SSA has already been established. I for one will be adhering to the truth.

IMHO, that’s the end of it.

Very well stated. Logical. Solid.

Careful though, we don’t want to upset people, didn’t you hear Jesus was a hippie? (insert sarcasm as needed.)

 

[RevDon]

Please don’t presume I think you are the Devil himself, and please don’t confuse my obedience for self-righteousness. I don’t plan to be like the Pharisee anytime soon.

And nowhere do I state you are trying to “undermine” the Church. I am merely stating that you are professing a dissenting “opinion” with no regard for what the Church says on the matter. Also you say things like “well the Church is not only hierarchy, but laity, and women religious…etc… how can you deny three fourths of the Church a voice?”

I can deny it because the Church is not a democracy. And God in Christ Jesus didn’t come to Earth and give keys to everyone and their mother to do as they wish. He gave them to Peter thus establishing Jesus Christ’s Church on Earth.

I am an obedient servant of our Church a follower of the law. Here are some words of St. Maximillian Kolbe on the importance of obedience.

“The superiors can make mistakes, but we in obeying can never make a mistake. There is only one exception: if a superior should ever command a thing clearly evident to be a sin, even the smallest sin. This is a thing that does not happen in practice. In such a case the superior would not be the representative of God, and we would not be obliged to obey him. Apart from our superiors we cannot trust our reason, which can only make a mistake Only God, only He is , infallable, most holy, most loving, He is our Lord, Father, Creator, End, Reason, Strength, Love…our everything.”

And on John 3:17, of course Jesus doesn’t condemn the world, God made it, and He said it was good. But Jesus also stated “go and sin no more” so we can assume He has no need of sin and in that He can condemn.

Thank you for your gentleness.

My starting place on this issue was the same as yours. I was obedient because I felt that obedience to Church authority was my guarantee for heaven. I didn’t have to think for myself, and frankly, nobody seemed very eager to give me any tools to think either.
Then I studied with Dominicans and Jesuits who opened my eyes to a great many things. They didn’t hate the Church or try to run down the Church. but it was as it was.
It was with great trepidation that I undertook an eight-year study of this issue as I have posted earlier. I gave great respect to the current position of the Church, and I carefully examined the tradition as it developed.
My ministry put me in contact with a great many homosexual men and women, some of whom had been together for a very long time. It was clear to me that their relationship was blessed by God, because the fruit of God’s blessing was apparent.
Additionally, my study of sacramental marriage taught me that the church does not marry anybody. The partners who vow themselves to each other are the ministers of the sacrament; the Church witnesses and recognizes what they and God have done, and then bears the responsibility of supporting the couple through good times and bad.
As I learned about the graces of marriage (and I was priest coordinator of Marriage Encounter for my diocese for four years) I saw in action the definition of marriage, which was a great deal more than the minimum contract that entails civil marriage.
I became convinced, like Peter, that God shows no partiality.

 

[RevDon]

This thread has been going on and on, so I figured I’d give my own :twocents:.

Look I’m no great philosopher, but we all must agree that God (and therefore Christ) is THE TRUTH. The good Lord established His Church on this earth. His Church has the Catechism, which, as we all know, pretty much lays out what we, as Catholics, are to believe. It’s in black and white.

Now, if any Catholic (or anyone for that matter) wants to know the Church’s position on something, a quick Google search can lead you to the Catechism. Consider the Catechism the “minimum requirements” if you will. As such, you can perhaps increase your understanding or better define their points, but one cannot contradict what’s written.

Essentially Christ’s Church, in Her infinite wisdom, has already made known what we are to believe regarding individuals with SSA, and She has also made known Her definition of marriage.

If Christ is THE TRUTH, and He Himself has granted His Church the ability to persevere throughout the ages, then one must have faith that what the Church teaches is the same truth that has been laid out for us by Christ Himself.

In short, to deviate from the Church teaches, is to deny that Christ is THE TRUTH. And to deviate from the Church, puts one in schism.

The truth is not now, nor has it ever been, relative. Christ is counter-cultural.

The truth about marriage and people with SSA has already been established. I for one will be adhering to the truth.

IMHO, that’s the end of it.

One of the big errors Catholics make is to believe that what they experience is the way it always was. I dare you to get into a conversation with someone who believes that Jesus gave us the Tridentine Mass.
As I pointed out earlier, the wording in the current catechism on marriage is a turn-about from what our old Baltimore catechisms (and I’m not THAT old) said.
What has enabled the Catholic Church to survive has been its ability to change. If Jesus came back, I think he would be amazed at what the Church is like, but he wouldn’t necessarily be unhappy with it. He would question us about how we demonstrate our love for one another, I’m sure. He might ask us how we reach out in love to the world. I don’t think he’d be pleased at the way we build protective walls around his church.
Christ is counter-cultural. The Church started out to be counter cultural, and then, about the fifth century, it bought into the culture. What we see today is counter-cultural because the culture that the Church bought into has been by-passed.
The Church as it exists can’t speak to the world; it can only speak at the world.
The truth in the Church must always begin with what has been revealed about the Father.
If you want to believe that our God is a just God whose primary function is to judge and whose default judgment is condemnation, then I guess I can’t do anything to convince you otherwise. That’s not my God, and I won’t live modeling myself after that false god.
With all the opposition out there, much of it from people who traditionally aim their venom at Catholics, today’s counter-cultural position is toward the extension of marriage.

 

[VanSensei]

There is no problem with homosexual relationships and gay marriage at a secular and non-Catholic level. Essentially, if I as a Catholic were invited to a Protestant or non-religious same-sex wedding, I would have no qualms about it whatsoever.

On the Catholic level, I mean, I don’t know. I really don’t know.

 

[RevDon]

Since God created men in families to be fathers , sons, and brothers, and women to be mothers, daughters, and sisters, I’m not sure God would agree with you on this. Unless you think God is wrong in his creation, that is. Love, compassion, nurturing, support, and guidance are best served in accordance with God’s will, not man’s. His will is pretty clear on this as it is He that created us male and female.

Father, son, brother, mother daughter, sister are indeed gender-specific terms used in describing family relationships. The words are human constructs, but the realities are God-given. Love, compassion, nurturing, support, and guidance are things people do. We do them sometimes just because people are kin. We do them sometimes because we comport our will to that of God, who does these same things, and with Jesus who told us to love one another. The family structure is the best place for people to give and to receive these gifts and to learn how to give and receive them. That said, is it God’s will that people be barred from the institution where these God-given gifts are exercised, or are we using our own (humanity’s prejudices and fears) will and just claim that it is God. The prejudices are ancient, and grew out of ancient concerns at a time when authorities did not hesitate to say that they spoke for God.

 

[Apolojez]

This thread has been going on and on, so I figured I’d give my own :twocents:.

Look I’m no great philosopher, but we all must agree that God (and therefore Christ) is THE TRUTH. The good Lord established His Church on this earth. His Church has the Catechism, which, as we all know, pretty much lays out what we, as Catholics, are to believe. It’s in black and white.

Now, if any Catholic (or anyone for that matter) wants to know the Church’s position on something, a quick Google search can lead you to the Catechism. Consider the Catechism the “minimum requirements” if you will. As such, you can perhaps increase your understanding or better define their points, but one cannot contradict what’s written.

Essentially Christ’s Church, in Her infinite wisdom, has already made known what we are to believe regarding individuals with SSA, and She has also made known Her definition of marriage.

If Christ is THE TRUTH, and He Himself has granted His Church the ability to persevere throughout the ages, then one must have faith that what the Church teaches is the same truth that has been laid out for us by Christ Himself.

In short, to deviate from the Church teaches, is to deny that Christ is THE TRUTH. And to deviate from the Church, puts one in schism.

The truth is not now, nor has it ever been, relative. Christ is counter-cultural.

The truth about marriage and people with SSA has already been established. I for one will be adhering to the truth.

IMHO, that’s the end of it.

You lost me once you said “THE TRUTH”. This is a civil issue IMO. It pertains to American law. Our faith disagrees with it but our faith isn’t the law for our country, no matter how much some wish it was so. Understand, the bible is not American law. Everyone should enjoy equal freedoms under the law according to our Constitution.

I think we should remember how Jesus preached the word and apply it to ourselves. Did Jesus concern himself with or change Roman laws? Jesus spoke to the people not the emperor. When Jesus had an opportunity to defend himself before the emperor he was silent. He wasn’t concerned with human laws, only God’s law.

When Jesus was asked about paying imperial taxes, he answered, “Give back to Ceasar what is Ceasar’s and to God what is God’s”

2 Tim 2:4 (NIV) No one serving as a soldier gets involved in civilian affairs–he wants to please his commanding officer

 

[RevDon]

I was speaking of Buffalo’s definition of the word homosexual, not the definition of marriage. Sorry for the confusion.

Sorry I didn’t understand that. Still, I don’t think anyone has attempted to give a definition of marriage that takes into account those elements I mentioned. Conservatives are forever complaining about changing the definition.

 

[loozcannon]

One of the big errors Catholics make is to believe that what they experience is the way it always was. I dare you to get into a conversation with someone who believes that Jesus gave us the Tridentine Mass.
As I pointed out earlier, the wording in the current catechism on marriage is a turn-about from what our old Baltimore catechisms (and I’m not THAT old) said.
What has enabled the Catholic Church to survive has been its ability to change. If Jesus came back, I think he would be amazed at what the Church is like, but he wouldn’t necessarily be unhappy with it. He would question us about how we demonstrate our love for one another, I’m sure. He might ask us how we reach out in love to the world. I don’t think he’d be pleased at the way we build protective walls around his church.
Christ is counter-cultural. The Church started out to be counter cultural, and then, about the fifth century, it bought into the culture. What we see today is counter-cultural because the culture that the Church bought into has been by-passed.
The Church as it exists can’t speak to the world; it can only speak at the world.
The truth in the Church must always begin with what has been revealed about the Father.
If you want to believe that our God is a just God whose primary function is to judge and whose default judgment is condemnation, then I guess I can’t do anything to convince you otherwise. That’s not my God, and I won’t live modeling myself after that false god.
With all the opposition out there, much of it from people who traditionally aim their venom at Catholics, today’s counter-cultural position is toward the extension of marriage.

Our God is a God of love, of course! So is His Church:

Take a look at this short video: youtu.be/bXq4izbFgAM. Does that sound like a God of hate?

The courts can attempt to redefine marriage all day long. They can proclaim from their benches that a shape with four sides is henceforth called a triangle. Because they’ve redefined it, doesn’t change what a shape with four sides really is.

Using your analogy of dialogue, it does take two to carry on a conversation; one to speak, the other to listen. The TRUTH has not changed, if others don’t want to hear it, it doesn’t make it any less true.

Our God is a loving God indeed, but is he not also a just God?