Homosexuality and marriage

[buffalo]

Apparently, Catholics can…and do.
There has always been a very strong position in Catholicism that holds that the individual’s conscience, rightly informed, should be a person’s guide. The proiblem is that the Catholic Church has failed to do a very convincing job of informing consciences on modern issues. Part of the reason for this might well be that the Church has not kept up with changing cosmology.
It should be possible to make convincing arguments for the truth, and it should be possible to point out the errors when opposing arguments stray from the truth. The Catholic Church has at her disposal some of the finest minds of our age. Why are they not framing their arguments in a way that speaks to the conscience of this generation through the experience of this generation?

Agreed - poor/lack of catechesis for the last 40 years is a big problem.

My experience is this - my children had lay teachers that didn’t believe or were ill prepared to make the argument. They didn’t hear it from the pulpit so we parents did not get the support of our very own Church. So when we tell them, we are on our own on an island. Against secularism, the kids just thing we are out of touch.

In addition, I do not understand why they are not taught philosophy.

 

[RevDon]

The vindication of Mark Regnerus

November 20, 2012 (thePublicDiscourse.com) - Yesterday on Public Discourse, I described the controversy that followed the publication of the New Family Structures Study (NFSS), led by University of Texas sociologist Mark Regnerus. During a summer of unusual abuse, Regnerus remained largely silent but with his head unbowed. As autumn arrived, he found himself vindicated as an honest scientist by his university, with continued support from the journal editor who published his research.
In the November 2012 issue of Social Science Research, Regnerus has published a new article: “Parental same-sex relationships, family instability, and subsequent life outcomes for adult children: Answering critics of the new family structures study with additional analyses.” He accepts “arguably the most reasonable criticism” of his original work, the use of the abbreviations “LM” (for lesbian mother) and “GF” (for gay father) to characterize the family situations experienced by his young adult subjects when they were children.

more…

I can’t see a significant meaning to this study that helps compare married same-sex households with children to married heterosexual households with children. As I understand it, more than 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce.
The same-sex households in this study were not differentiated as to whether the parents were married. If we conclude that marriage is not a significant element in creating stability in those homes, then it would seem to be scientifically reasonable to conclude that marriage plays no significant role in the stability of heterosexual- parented families if we are going to compare them.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

RevDon
**
Yes, I am a priest. **

Are you a Catholic priest? If so, do you defy the teachings of the Church on other matters as well as this one?

** The Catholic Church has at her disposal some of the finest minds of our age. Why are they not framing their arguments in a way that speaks to the conscience of this generation through the experience of this generation? **

Because the Catholic Church, unlike the Church of England, does not conform to the world’s corruption. It preaches to the world that it should conform to Christ.

 

[RevDon]

Agreed - poor/lack of catechesis for the last 40 years is a big problem.

My experience is this - my children had lay teachers that didn’t believe or were ill prepared to make the argument. They didn’t hear it from the pulpit so we parents did not get the support of our very own Church. So when we tell them, we are on our own on an island. Against secularism, the kids just thing we are out of touch.

In addition, I do not understand why they are not taught philosophy.

So, what’s to be done? It seems legitimate to ask whether there is a convincing argument. Can it be that some very basic understanding of Christianity has been lost by people who have become overly concerned with discipline rather than love? If there is an argument that can be made from the teaching of Jesus, I haven’t seen it posited by Church authorities either.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

RevDon

** If there is an argument that can be made from the teaching of Jesus, I haven’t seen it posited by Church authorities either. **

Would you say that St. Paul did not conform to the teachings of Jesus. Is it not rather you, who are not conforming to the teachings of Christ?

Do you really expect men married to each other not to be sodomites?

 

[RevDon]

RevDon
**
Yes, I am a priest. **

Are you a Catholic priest? If so, do you defy the teachings of the Church on other matters as well as this one?

My love for Christ and his church compels me to seek to make the Church a viable messenger to this age, especially when those who have the role of teacher to the teachers seem not to be doing very well.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

RevDon
**
My love for Christ and his church compels me to seek to make the Church a viable messenger to this age, especially when those who have the role of teacher to the teachers seem not to be doing very well. **

So are you teaching Catholics to disobey the Church because the Church has disobeyed Christ?

 

[RevDon]

** The Catholic Church has at her disposal some of the finest minds of our age. Why are they not framing their arguments in a way that speaks to the conscience of this generation through the experience of this generation? **

Because the Catholic Church, unlike the Church of England, does not conform to the world’s corruption. It preaches to the world that it should conform to Christ.

It seems that Jesus began with people where they were. Their experience was important to him. The demand that people should jump into the Catholic Church’s way of looking at things without bringing people along is what is making it increasingly difficult for people to take the Catholic Church seriously.

 

[buffalo]

It seems that Jesus began with people where they were. Their experience was important to him. The demand that people should jump into the Catholic Church’s way of looking at things without bringing people along is what is making it increasingly difficult for people to take the Catholic Church seriously.

Jesus did meet people where they were. He was not shy about calling out sin and the consequences. The Catholic Church is protecting those very teachings.

 

[buffalo]

I can’t see a significant meaning to this study that helps compare married same-sex households with children to married heterosexual households with children. As I understand it, more than 50% of heterosexual marriages end in divorce.
The same-sex households in this study were not differentiated as to whether the parents were married. If we conclude that marriage is not a significant element in creating stability in those homes, then it would seem to be scientifically reasonable to conclude that marriage plays no significant role in the stability of heterosexual- parented families if we are going to compare them.

We can pin some of this on the heterosexual disrespect for marriage by no-fault divorce and contraception.

But conituuning to lower the bar does not serve the common good. We should be elevating real families and real marriage.

 

[Marc_Anthony]

So RevDon, are you a Catholic Priest? If so, who is your Bishop?

Think for a moment: Why are civil benefits attached to married couples in the first place?

If you’re having trouble thinking of a reason…well then, there’s a big part of the problem.

 

[RevDon]

We can pin some of this on the heterosexual disrespect for marriage by no-fault divorce and contraception.

But conituuning to lower the bar does not serve the common good. We should be elevating real families and real marriage.

How do you suggest we do that? One of the ways human beings have been trying to circle the wagons since the beginning of time has been to make sure that some people were left outside the circle.

 

[buffalo]

How do you suggest we do that? One of the ways human beings have been trying to circle the wagons since the beginning of time has been to make sure that some people were left outside the circle.

1. Eliminate 20 minute no fault divorce
2. Add in - if a petition for divorce is filed mandatory counseling - you pick - your church or another
3. Eliminate welfare or other benefits that end up promoting single parent families.
4. Strengthen pre-nuptial training programs
5. Eliminate the marriage tax penalties
6. Advocate large families instead of 2.1 and a dog
7. Better Catechesis on contraception and selfishness
8. Taxation policy that encourage families
9. Uphold marriage between one man and one woman

Nine quick ones off the top of my head. Wasn’t that hard.

 

[RevDon]

Jesus did meet people where they were. He was not shy about calling out sin and the consequences. The Catholic Church is protecting those very teachings.

The problem is that the energy is going into protecting teaching that no longer makes sense instead of provlaiming goodness that gives life. What can be done to make all marriage meaningful? What can be done to help marriages to be more successful? What can be done to protect children from abuse and neglect? There are some places to put some Christ-like energy.
I rtead of Jesus doing that far more than criticizing sinners. He was a friend to sinners. They ate with him. Do you think they would have shown up for dinner if he had a reputation for castigating them?

Besides, the whole question of whether same-sex marriage is sin is what this conversation is about. I know that there are “clobber” passages from the scriptures that you will feel obliged to quote, but not one of them is about marrtiage in a way that rules out the loving, committed, holy relationship of two persons of the same sex.

 

[dandingo]

Good luck - See what heterosexuality leads to - Tut Tut !!

But seriously anyone can petition your politicians to change the law - whether you will succeed is another matter.

So, just to clarify, you’d have no problem with a 50 year old man marrying his 13 year old 3rd cousin and you believe that they should have the exact same equal rights as the current marriage laws?

*Disclaimer - I’m not 50 and I have no desire to marry my 13 year old cousin (can’t believe I even have to state this).

 

[RevDon]

RevDon
**
My love for Christ and his church compels me to seek to make the Church a viable messenger to this age, especially when those who have the role of teacher to the teachers seem not to be doing very well. **

So are you teaching Catholics to disobey the Church because the Church has disobeyed Christ?

Honestly, I’m facing a lot of inner conflict on this. I have studied it extensively for over eight years. I have consulted experts on scripture and counseled with leading lights in theology and morality. I have studied the findings of the medical and psychiatric experts.
Here’s what I have learned: (please note, these are conclusions and not arguments in themselves, nor are these simple statements intended to address all of the nuances.)

1. Gender attraction appears to be something innate. The way people are created.
2. Human beings were created to be in relationship with others.
3. The specific relationship that we call marriage has psychological and spiritual value such that the Church declares it to be a sacrament. It leads to personal holiness and to the collective holiness of the world.
4. The scriptures usually cited as against homosexuality come from two different cultures. The agenda of the Old Testament culture was to create a strong nation (read military) and believed this was God’s will. The culture of the New Testament embraced that Old Testament culture’s manner of describing the relationship between God and humanity and was struggling with ways to differentiate itself from pagan cultures.
5. Those scriptures did not envision --and therefore did not address-- the kind of relationships between people of the same sex that include the attributes that we identify as the merits of marriage.
6. Catholicism has an agenda that includes growing her numbers. This is also reflected in the birth control arguments (and that’s a topic for another thread). Catholicism places a very heavy emphasis on procreation as the purpose of marriage (though less so than in earlier times–just check an old catechism).
7. There are civil arguments that can be made concerning equal access to the institutions of government (but I don’t want to go there in this post).
8. My experience of same sex couples who have had a long term, monogamous relationship has convinced me that these are grace-filled, and where the grace of God is so evident, I cannot deny that the blessing of God has preceeded it.
   There’s more, but enough for now.

 

[RevDon]

So RevDon, are you a Catholic Priest? If so, who is your Bishop?

Think for a moment: Why are civil benefits attached to married couples in the first place?

If you’re having trouble thinking of a reason…well then, there’s a big part of the problem.

This forum is no place to begin a witch hunt. If you have legitimate arguments for or against the proposition, offer them, but I will not give you personal information.

The General Accounting Office has identified more than 1,300 civil benefits of marriage. Some of these are for the purpose of raising children (which same-sex couples do, by the way) Others are for the purpose of good order in society, especially as that attends to financial matter like ownership of property, taxation, inheritance. There are also benefits to society that cannot be enumerated in financial terms. A few: Married people live longer, and are healthier. Married people behave in less reckless ways. Married people are more law-abiding. Married people tend to participate more in the democratic process. Married people contribute more to charitable works. Is that sufficient?

 

[RevDon]

Agreed - poor/lack of catechesis for the last 40 years is a big problem.

My experience is this - my children had lay teachers that didn’t believe or were ill prepared to make the argument. They didn’t hear it from the pulpit so we parents did not get the support of our very own Church. So when we tell them, we are on our own on an island. Against secularism, the kids just thing we are out of touch.

In addition, I do not understand why they are not taught philosophy.

I think that philosophy requires some experience of life to be able to comprehend. Hence, we rely on adults to use those experiences in a way that makes sense.

 

[fix]

How do you suggest we do that? One of the ways human beings have been trying to circle the wagons since the beginning of time has been to make sure that some people were left outside the circle.

I think people leave themselves outside the circle. We live in a time of hedonism and relativism. That cannot be discounted. People want affirmation. They particularly want their sexual choices affirmed because on some level they know certain choices are contrary to the good. They very much want others to affirm their desires and acts because they think it will quell dissonance they feel.

 

[buffalo]

The problem is that the energy is going into protecting teaching that no longer makes sense instead of provlaiming goodness that gives life. What can be done to make all marriage meaningful? What can be done to help marriages to be more successful? What can be done to protect children from abuse and neglect? There are some places to put some Christ-like energy.
I rtead of Jesus doing that far more than criticizing sinners. He was a friend to sinners. They ate with him. Do you think they would have shown up for dinner if he had a reputation for castigating them?

Besides, the whole question of whether same-sex marriage is sin is what this conversation is about. I know that there are “clobber” passages from the scriptures that you will feel obliged to quote, but not one of them is about marrtiage in a way that rules out the loving, committed, holy relationship of two persons of the same sex.

Sure - the very first act God did was a male and female one.

Absolutely - why? because he taught with authority. The sinners listened. They recognized Him. Not so with the pharisees. He showed them a better way.

Nowhere do we see Jesus advocating same sex marriage. In fact, when He was asked about divorce, He said it was not like that in the beginning. He said Moses permitted it because man’s heart was hard.

Real marriage has been part of the Catholic Church since the beginning and protected by the Holy Spirit. You or no other human has any authority to change it.