Homosexuality and marriage

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Charlemagne_II said:
RevDon

** If there is an argument that can be made from the teaching of Jesus, I haven’t seen it posited by Church authorities either. **

Would you say that St. Paul did not conform to the teachings of Jesus. Is it not rather you, who are not conforming to the teachings of Christ?

Do you really expect men married to each other not to be sodomites? :confused:
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If you are describing a particular method of love-making, be sure that it is not something that occurs in heterosexual relationships before using this to outlaw homosexual marriage.

Of the 168 hours in a week, how many do you suppose a married couple (gay or straight) spends having sex? How many hours a week do married people spend facing each other across a table? Or sitting beside each other in a car? My point is that the chief function of marriage has very little to do with sex (no jokes, please). And the spiritual function of marriage has nothing to do with sex. If we want to do something good, we should be devoting our efforts to showing married people how they can help each other to be holier. And if we can do that for straight couples, then why not for same-sex couples? Isn’t holiness the product the Church seeks to produce? Or will we settle for non-sinners, who never do anything wrong, but who never do anything right either?
If a manufacturer had the goal stop producing clunkers, that company would soon give way to the company whose goal was to produce excellent vehicles.
 
RevDon said:
If you are describing a particular method of love-making, be sure that it is not something that occurs in heterosexual relationships before using this to outlaw homosexual marriage.

Of the 168 hours in a week, how many do you suppose a married couple (gay or straight) spends having sex? How many hours a week do married people spend facing each other across a table? Or sitting beside each other in a car? My point is that the chief function of marriage has very little to do with sex (no jokes, please). And the spiritual function of marriage has nothing to do with sex. If we want to do something good, we should be devoting our efforts to showing married people how they can help each other to be holier. And if we can do that for straight couples, then why not for same-sex couples? Isn’t holiness the product the Church seeks to produce? Or will we settle for non-sinners, who never do anything wrong, but who never do anything right either?
If a manufacturer had the goal stop producing clunkers, that company would soon give way to the company whose goal was to produce excellent vehicles.
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How can we seek holiness while violating His commandments? When Jesus was asked about eternal life the first thing He said was keep My commandments.
 
buffalo said:
Sure - the very first act God did was a male and female one.

Absolutely - why? because he taught with authority. The sinners listened. They recognized Him. Not so with the pharisees. He showed them a better way.

Nowhere do we see Jesus advocating same sex marriage. In fact, when He was asked about divorce, He said it was not like that in the beginning. He said Moses permitted it because man’s heart was hard.

Real marriage has been part of the Catholic Church since the beginning and protected by the Holy Spirit. You or no other human has any authority to change it.
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Genesis is about God being the source of all creation. In 2:18-20 the story says humans need companions. God created all sorts of creatures to see if one would be a suitable companion for Adam, but none of them seemed to suit him. So God made a woman, that seemed to be exactly what Adam wanted. What would have happened if Adam had said, “Close, but…”

Jesus’ authority was not power or threats “like the Pharisees.” His authority came from seeing into people’s hearts and meeting them there. When the Catholic hierarchy abandons the teaching methods of the Pharisees and masters Jesus’ authority, I suspect they’ll be listened to as he was.

Yes, Jesus speaks of the hard hearts of people, who seek to create divisions, like divorce. No, he didn’t advocate same-sex marriage. He didn’t advocate name-calling and judgment. He didn’t advocate a lot of things. He did advocate forgiveness (even when there wasn’t remorse). He did advocate making a place for the outcast. He did advocate treating all persons with respect.
 
fix said:
How can we seek holiness while violating His commandments? When Jesus was asked about eternal life the first thing He said was keep My commandments.
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And he said, “A new commandment I give you. Love one another as I have loved you.” I think you have the answer.
 
fix said:
I think people leave themselves outside the circle. We live in a time of hedonism and relativism. That cannot be discounted. People want affirmation. They particularly want their sexual choices affirmed because on some level they know certain choices are contrary to the good. They very much want others to affirm their desires and acts because they think it will quell dissonance they feel.
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Yes, we want affirmation because we are social beings living within a community that impacts our lives in many ways. Yes, hedonism and relativism are here (I suspect from my reading of history this is not new).
Perhaps they want their lives affirmed because they know that they are in some way holy, and society needs that holiness. See my post 141 It’s not about sex. It’s about relationship that leads to support in holiness and correction in sinfulness that can only come when a person has the assurance of care and fidelity from another and grants vulnerability to listen to the other. That’s what the scriptures mean when they talk about the relation ship of spouses being like that of Christ and the Church. Again I ask: Is there anything that makes this kind of relationship impossible for two persons of the same sex?
 
RevDon

**How do you suggest we do that? One of the ways human beings have been trying to circle the wagons since the beginning of time has been to make sure that some people were left outside the circle. **

You mean the ones that were “left outside the circle” by Christ when he drove them out of the temple with a whip?

Legitimizing same-sex marriage is legitimizing sodomy. That you are for this is a shocking statement, all the more so because it comes not only from a Catholic, but from a Catholic or Anglican or Buddhist priest (you haven’t said which).

If you are a Catholic priest, you should think about the humility of the great theologian and saint Thomas Aquinas, who said on his deathbed:

“Thee have I preached; Thee have I taught. Never have I said anything against Thee. If anything was not well said, that is to be attributed to my ignorance. Neither do I wish to be obstinate in my opinions, but if I have written anything erroneous … I submit all to the judgment and correction of the Holy Roman Church, in whose obedience I now pass from this life.”

Your argument that a man should follow his conscience doesn’t cut it when he forms his conscience to disobey Christ and obey the devil.
 
RevDon said:
Honestly, I’m facing a lot of inner conflict on this. I have studied it extensively for over eight years. I have consulted experts on scripture and counseled with leading lights in theology and morality. I have studied the findings of the medical and psychiatric experts.
Here’s what I have learned: (please note, these are conclusions and not arguments in themselves, nor are these simple statements intended to address all of the nuances.)
  1. Gender attraction appears to be something innate. The way people are created.
  2. Human beings were created to be in relationship with others.
  3. The specific relationship that we call marriage has psychological and spiritual value such that the Church declares it to be a sacrament. It leads to personal holiness and to the collective holiness of the world.
  4. The scriptures usually cited as against homosexuality come from two different cultures. The agenda of the Old Testament culture was to create a strong nation (read military) and believed this was God’s will. The culture of the New Testament embraced that Old Testament culture’s manner of describing the relationship between God and humanity and was struggling with ways to differentiate itself from pagan cultures.
  5. Those scriptures did not envision --and therefore did not address-- the kind of relationships between people of the same sex that include the attributes that we identify as the merits of marriage.
  6. Catholicism has an agenda that includes growing her numbers. This is also reflected in the birth control arguments (and that’s a topic for another thread). Catholicism places a very heavy emphasis on procreation as the purpose of marriage (though less so than in earlier times–just check an old catechism).
  7. There are civil arguments that can be made concerning equal access to the institutions of government (but I don’t want to go there in this post).
  8. My experience of same sex couples who have had a long term, monogamous relationship has convinced me that these are grace-filled, and where the grace of God is so evident, I cannot deny that the blessing of God has preceeded it.
    There’s more, but enough for now.
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Number one is the problem.

A couple of links to ponder: Please take the time to listen before responding.

“Political Correctness Rules, Not Science,” Says American Psychological Association Past-President

Was Never Done," Says Former A.P.A. President in Interview

and

Dr. Nicolosi Explains Reparative Therapy
 
RevDon said:
This forum is no place to begin a witch hunt. If you have legitimate arguments for or against the proposition, offer them, but I will not give you personal information.

The General Accounting Office has identified more than 1,300 civil benefits of marriage. Some of these are for the purpose of raising children (which same-sex couples do, by the way) Others are for the purpose of good order in society, especially as that attends to financial matter like ownership of property, taxation, inheritance. There are also benefits to society that cannot be enumerated in financial terms. A few: Married people live longer, and are healthier. Married people behave in less reckless ways. Married people are more law-abiding. Married people tend to participate more in the democratic process. Married people contribute more to charitable works. Is that sufficient?
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Let us not forget the rights of children.
 
RevDon said:
Genesis is about God being the source of all creation. In 2:18-20 the story says humans need companions. God created all sorts of creatures to see if one would be a suitable companion for Adam, but none of them seemed to suit him. So God made a woman, that seemed to be exactly what Adam wanted. What would have happened if Adam had said, “Close, but…”

Jesus’ authority was not power or threats “like the Pharisees.” His authority came from seeing into people’s hearts and meeting them there. When the Catholic hierarchy abandons the teaching methods of the Pharisees and masters Jesus’ authority, I suspect they’ll be listened to as he was.

Yes, Jesus speaks of the hard hearts of people, who seek to create divisions, like divorce. No, he didn’t advocate same-sex marriage. He didn’t advocate name-calling and judgment. He didn’t advocate a lot of things. He did advocate forgiveness (even when there wasn’t remorse). He did advocate making a place for the outcast. He did advocate treating all persons with respect.
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Right, Adams helpmate was not Steve. This was by design.
 
fix said:
How can we claim to love one another when we break His law?
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While we were still sinners he died for us.
It’s HIS law and not for us to enforce, especially by demeaning one another. On top of that, I’m not so sure that this is a suitable application of God’s law.
 
Charlemagne_II said:
RevDon

**How do you suggest we do that? One of the ways human beings have been trying to circle the wagons since the beginning of time has been to make sure that some people were left outside the circle. **

You mean the ones that were “left outside the circle” by Christ when he drove them out of the temple with a whip?

Legitimizing same-sex marriage is legitimizing sodomy. That you are for this is a shocking statement, all the more so because it comes not only from a Catholic, but from a Catholic or Anglican or Buddhist priest (you haven’t said which).

If you are a Catholic priest, you should think about the humility of the great theologian and saint Thomas Aquinas, who said on his deathbed:

“Thee have I preached; Thee have I taught. Never have I said anything against Thee. If anything was not well said, that is to be attributed to my ignorance. Neither do I wish to be obstinate in my opinions, but if I have written anything erroneous … I submit all to the judgment and correction of the Holy Roman Church, in whose obedience I now pass from this life.”

Your argument that a man should follow his conscience doesn’t cut it when he forms his conscience to disobey Christ and obey the devil.
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My training was with Dominicans, so I appreciate Aquinas.
If it is your intent to eliminate sodomy, then say so, but be sure you try to wipe it out wherever it exists.
Again, I direct your attention to the nature of the full relationship. It seems that you are fixated on sex.
 
RevDon
**
If it is your intent to eliminate sodomy, then say so, but be sure you try to wipe it out wherever it exists.**

I don’t intend to wipe it out. I just don’t wish to honor it with a certificate of marriage. Why do you wish to honor it with a certificate of marriage, since sodomy is the only sexual relationship possible between same-sex partners?

**Again, I direct your attention to the nature of the full relationship. It seems that you are fixated on sex. **

Marriage is fixated on love, the fullest physical expression of which is found in sex and procreation. Marriage is not required for two people of the same sex to live together and love one another. But sex between two such people does not require the sacramental seal of approval. Jesus was not a sodomite, though he loved greatly. Nor anywhere in his teachings does he grant the seal of sacramental status to sodomy between members of the same sex.

You did not mind saying you are a priest. Are you a Dominican priest? Do the Domincans generally favor same-sex marriage. Inquiring minds need to know. 😉
 
buffalo said:
Number one is the problem.

A couple of links to ponder: Please take the time to listen before responding.

“Political Correctness Rules, Not Science,” Says American Psychological Association Past-President

Was Never Done," Says Former A.P.A. President in Interview

and

Dr. Nicolosi Explains Reparative Therapy
Click to expand...
I thank you for those resources. I watched them, and then did a bit of searching and found a plethora of contradictory references. I watched a video about two Arab boys who were hanged for being homosexual. If that’s not a deterrent, I don’t know what is. The point is science is not yet conclusive, but the preponderance of evidence says it is innate, and the anecdotal evidence gained from the stories of homosexual people I have known convinces me.
 
I still can’t get an answer for this question from any supporter of same sex marriage;

How can a male/male couple teach “their” daughter how to grow up and become a woman? Or, how can two women raise “their” little boy to be a man?
 
We have barely begun to mention that a homosexual union cannot be consummated, which has always been an important requirement for the recognition of a valid marriage.
 
tmkmom

**We have barely begun to mention that a homosexual union cannot be consummated, which has always been an important requirement for the recognition of a valid marriage. **

Unless the sodomites wish to argue that sodomy is the moral and biological equivalent of heterosexual sex. This would be a stretch, however, since the state gains no benefit of birthing new citizens by this means.
 
RevDon said:
I thank you for those resources. I watched them, and then did a bit of searching and found a plethora of contradictory references. I watched a video about two Arab boys who were hanged for being homosexual. If that’s not a deterrent, I don’t know what is. The point is science is not yet conclusive, but the preponderance of evidence says it is innate, and the anecdotal evidence gained from the stories of homosexual people I have known convinces me.
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Figures. Every advocate disparages the contrary.

No gay gene has been found despite best efforts to find one.

Is your claim it is impossible to change?
 
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