Homosexuality and Tolerance

[oldcatholicguy]

Hello! I want to start by saying that although I am no longer Catholic and have a difficult relationship with Catholicism, I will try my best to be respectful and I hope you will do the same for me.

I was raised by relatively liberal Catholic parents in a city where more than 90% of the population is Catholic. Growing up, I found it very difficult to reconcile my religion with my love of science (big bang, evolution, etc.), and eventually found that I had to choose one above the other. I chose science, and drifted away from religion for ages before I finally called myself Agnostic.

I’m also a lesbian and I hope to marry a woman through the government someday. As a child, people outside of my family indirectly taught me that homosexuality was a sin. It made self acceptance extremely difficult as well as caused resentment towards Christianity. I’ve also found that nearly all Catholic people are prejudiced when it comes to the gay community, and overall it has severely impacted my respect for organized religion. It’s very difficult for me to appreciate my Catholic background when its primary contributions to my life were oppression and self-hatred. But over time, I’ve gotten tired of instinctively judging people for believing something I don’t, and I want to stop being prejudiced towards Catholic people.

So that’s why I am here. I want to learn more about Catholicism objectively and secularly so I can reduce my resentment and appreciate my Catholic roots, and there are a few of things I want to start with.
For people who are Catholic and also accepting of homosexuality, how did you come to have this opinion and how do you reconcile it with Catholic teachings?
For people who put science above the bible yet still manage to be religious, how do you balance both?

(NOTE: I am not looking to be converted to Catholicism or to be reprimanded for my sexuality, so please don’t do that. You really won’t get anywhere and it’ll only add to my negative bias.)

Thank you all!

The best advice I can give you is to get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and read it. It is a very orderly and well cited document that, if you start at the beginning of it, will explain what the Church teaches and how it came to those conclusions.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

For people who are Catholic and also accepting of homosexuality, how did you come to have this opinion and how do you reconcile it with Catholic teachings?

It depends what you mean by accept; I love them just the same and hope that I can be a good example for them and others.

For people who put science above the bible yet still manage to be religious, how do you balance both?

Catholicism and science are rather compatible as both are rational things. The Big Bang Theory was invented by a Catholic priest. Evolution is compatible with Catholicism.

 

[Luker]

The second issue, that of tolerance, depends wholly upon the subject in question and the object chosen.

People are created in the image and likeness of God. So as such they are good in themselves.

When it comes to tolerance you tolerate a good for a greater good. You don’t tolerate evil, because by tolerating it you in fact condone it.

Homosexual acts distort that image.

So we tolerate people, even those who have homosexual tendencies.

But we can never tolerate the acts themselves.

I think this answer sums it up…I also want to add that God gave us all free will…what we do with it is up to us. …God didn’t create the homosexual anymore than he created the rapist, pedophile, or murderer…NO, I am not comparing these to a homosexual, just pointing out that GOD doesn’t decide what WE choose to do or be! I think where people have the biggest problem with this lifestyle is that too many want a “cheering section” and demand approval…People don’t want to be forced into accepting this lifestyle, so we have a wedge. If you are truly gay, please go about your life and enjoy it, but Please DO NOT force your views on anyone else…We will all be happier.

 

[migueltojose]

Tolerance does not equal acceptance.

Some of us tend to be tolerant and erroneously allow that to lead us to accept what is not true… or in other words, accept what is wrong…

Some of us tend to resist being tolerant in fear of becoming accepting (or being seen as accepting) and erroneously allow that to us them to be intolerant… which is wrong…

We need to be able to differentiate between the two.

We must be tolerant of sin for we are all sinners. We must be merciful, forgiving, and supportive while at the same time never accepting anything but the truth. Never accepting sin.

It is all about you, NOT being all about you. We are all under a microscope.

And faith and reason are wholly compatible. Our understanding of them will continually and ultimately converge.

 

[djames99]

There will never be tolerance for this sin. This is because if we do, then we make God
our enemy and he is deserving of all our love. We ‘prove’ this love by not liking what he
doesn’t like.

True Catholics don’t reprimand, but they do correct people, and that is because we love them and more importantly, because God demands we do (1Cor). This is something the recipient doesn’t understand. But when we try, we find there are some people we meet who have some pre established barriers to being receptive. They bring their baggage with them, the misinformation of fallen away religious sects, and other stuff they will not let go of no matter what. The baggage includes definite limitations of what they will action because they love what they do so much.

They feign wanting a something they can’t describe, but are unwilling to take away the delectabilities that this world and nature provides them, which has them distanced from God. It’s like a fix really, and no one wants to go through the therapy.

The sad irony is that there is a cure for this trick which is a form of infatuation played on our loved ones by the devil. Some have decided to give God the benefit of the doubt and listened to the remedy he provided for this affliction. Some have listened to Him and now
do not have the least inclination or desire for this temptation anymore. They have gone on to marry in the proper ceremony administered in the proper way, and now raise family developed in the normal way defined by God.

Now, God needed someone special to administer this remedy. It called for someone proven to be super gentle,caring and sensitive to our needs, the exact opposite of the evil ones who don’t care about people. She could have stayed in the sidelines and said nothing has an introduction, but instead, announced that she promises to help anyone who asks for it, and repeated the promise in case no one was paying attention.

A devotion to the Blessed Virgin through the Rosary is that fix. Now of course she will go
into watch mode first, because this gift cannot be wasted on insincere individuals who are expecting a TV remote-like instant reciprocal response. But if she sees someone is using the graces imparted to him in a measure deserving at this point in his transformation, she will give even more. Eventually with perseverance, the person draws away from this lifestyle permanently, and now can see it for what it was.

theholyrosary.org/rosarybenefits

 

[Captain_America]

OP: you’re probably pre-conditioning some of the response to you.

In your situation, like many situations for non-Catholics, the easiest and top qualitiest response can be found in the Catechism. This document is admirable; it reflects a great deal of theological work by people done over a number of years, etc. It’s not just one person telling you something.

One challenge you’ve got is 2014. We live in an era in which, laughably, people somehow have been conditioned (well, perhaps there are good commer$cial reasons for it) to think that sex is THE most important thing in life.

Why not wine? Why not music? Why not excellent pizza?

I’m a 50 year old heterosexual who ranks tennis way up there (truth be told, a bit higher than sex). Color me weird if you will, but there are plenty of good things in life.

I VEHEMENTLY (yes! caps!) disagree with the notion of “tolerance” if this means. . . as it has come to mean for so many. . . I myself get to define whenever I feel I’ve been offended. In this case, the OP’s position may be intolerant of other’s views. It’s a mistake for the active definition of tolerance to come from an aggrieved party since everyone can be aggrieved about anything, so the notion’s practically useless unless you can grab guns to force your claim or remedy.

I think the notion also can be anti-intellectual, in that it stops up reasoned discussion among people. I’ve seen this, sadly, happen. So tolerance can itself become a very divisive topic.

The notion renders mutual assistance difficult. If a mentally-disturbed person wanted to stab herself with a knife, a good friend would try to prevent this.

The Cathechism really has it right with homosexuality, though. Just reading the history of homosexual protest, especially the threatened violence and propaganda and terror associated with the redefinition of the term by professional psychologists, should make one realize that the current feel-good toward homosexuality is a matter of media propaganda.

I think your mental image of “Catholics-who-reconcile-faith-with-acceptance-of-homosexuality” is very vague. Do you mean Catholics who feel homosexuality is perfectly fine? (In this case they are Catholics who missed reading the Bible or learning the church’s teachings). By “acceptance” do you mean just being charitable, cordial, genial, nice? One can be nice to people one hates! (so I don’t know what you mean). By “accepting” is this code for the word “approve”?

And the notion of one person “reconciling” a view with the church’s teachings is a bit difficult to follow. Such a person puts himself or herself on a par with something very different than the views of an organization, when it comes to the Catholic Church. The “view” of the Church represents a great deal of analysis and insight—developed over centuries—about human motivation and psychology, about the ends and purposes of life–and includes the very clear Biblical passages descrying the practice. So it seems prideful or logically confusing for a person to “reconcile” these things. Kind of like asking a toaster to be a television.

The value of the Bible is clear; there is also great value to the substantive teaching of the Catechism. I hate the mental picture of Catholics coming up with their voodooized view of the Catholic faith; certainly it would not include what should be included, and may well end up just being the whole emotivism stuff.

So OP: just call yourself a person. The persona is another matter entirely.

 

[Luker]

OP: you’re probably pre-conditioning some of the response to you.

In your situation, like many situations for non-Catholics, the easiest and top qualitiest response can be found in the Catechism. This document is admirable; it reflects a great deal of theological work by people done over a number of years, etc. It’s not just one person telling you something.

One challenge you’ve got is 2014. We live in an era in which, laughably, people somehow have been conditioned (well, perhaps there are good commer$cial reasons for it) to think that sex is THE most important thing in life.

Why not wine? Why not music? Why not excellent pizza?

I’m a 50 year old heterosexual who ranks tennis way up there (truth be told, a bit higher than sex). Color me weird if you will, but there are plenty of good things in life.

I VEHEMENTLY (yes! caps!) disagree with the notion of “tolerance” if this means. . . as it has come to mean for so many. . . I myself get to define whenever I feel I’ve been offended. In this case, the OP’s position may be intolerant of other’s views. It’s a mistake for the active definition of tolerance to come from an aggrieved party since everyone can be aggrieved about anything, so the notion’s practically useless unless you can grab guns to force your claim or remedy.

I think the notion also can be anti-intellectual, in that it stops up reasoned discussion among people. I’ve seen this, sadly, happen. So tolerance can itself become a very divisive topic.

The notion renders mutual assistance difficult. If a mentally-disturbed person wanted to stab herself with a knife, a good friend would try to prevent this.

The Cathechism really has it right with homosexuality, though. Just reading the history of homosexual protest, especially the threatened violence and propaganda and terror associated with the redefinition of the term by professional psychologists, should make one realize that the current feel-good toward homosexuality is a matter of media propaganda.

I think your mental image of “Catholics-who-reconcile-faith-with-acceptance-of-homosexuality” is very vague. Do you mean Catholics who feel homosexuality is perfectly fine? (In this case they are Catholics who missed reading the Bible or learning the church’s teachings). By “acceptance” do you mean just being charitable, cordial, genial, nice? One can be nice to people one hates! (so I don’t know what you mean). By “accepting” is this code for the word “approve”?

And the notion of one person “reconciling” a view with the church’s teachings is a bit difficult to follow. Such a person puts himself or herself on a par with something very different than the views of an organization, when it comes to the Catholic Church. The “view” of the Church represents a great deal of analysis and insight—developed over centuries—about human motivation and psychology, about the ends and purposes of life–and includes the very clear Biblical passages descrying the practice. So it seems prideful or logically confusing for a person to “reconcile” these things. Kind of like asking a toaster to be a television.

The value of the Bible is clear; there is also great value to the substantive teaching of the Catechism. I hate the mental picture of Catholics coming up with their voodooized view of the Catholic faith; certainly it would not include what should be included, and may well end up just being the whole emotivism stuff.

So OP: just call yourself a person. The persona is another matter entirely.

Good post!

 

[Bodhi303]

Hi Catmap

First, I am so very sorry that we have been the subject of most of your pain, but I’m glad you’ve found peace despite it. I am also very excited and encouraged that you have decided to take the avenue of discussion to repair your feelings towards Christianity. For a spiritual person your post is actually proof of God working within you. To seek to understand as opposed to condemn is truly what we call the Holy Spirit at work. Thank you so very much for offering us the gift of compassion that was never offered to you.

I have two new female friends that are gay, and I care for them dearly. So I have had a difficult time reconciling the two loving women that I know with Christian teachings. And I can sense in my friends that me being a churchgoer makes them uncomfortable. As if they are waiting for me to one day openly condemn them. I sense their hyper sensitivity to Christianity and Christians so I empathize with your position.

As a result, I am discerning this subject matter.

I think if I were as scientific or agnostic as you are that I would actually be very concrete in my feelings about homosexuality as something as unnatural and a “slap in the face of mother nature.” If we are just biological organisms and if sex is just about the biological process of procreation, then homosexuality fails to meet that objective and wouldn’t make any sense to me. If I were agnostic or atheist homosexuality would come across to me as arrogance towards the natural order.

However!
It is only in the context of a Divine and loving God that homosexuality makes any sense to me at all. Because then sex isn’t just some biological act but it is a divine loving act which makes love (aka God) an addition to why we have sex, as opposed to just procreation being the sole purpose for sex; And that we are more than just simple organisms running round trying to manufacture purpose. To me then homosexuality could be seen as evidence of the boundlessness of God’s Love;

In the mean time, I take the position of another poster where I just don’t make it an issue. I try not to pray on this subject matter too often because it causes me to lose focus on what really matters; God’s love.

I’m so happy you are here to seek clarification, it is truly evidence that God is working within you. No pressure, not trying to convert you. I just want you to see exactly how powerful your post really is. Good luck, I hope you find what you are looking for.

I will leave you with this one thought that keeps echoing in my mind

The greatest cross that a Christian could ever be asked to carry, is to suffer immensely for the sake of love!

My I have your permission to pray a Rosary for you?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

Homosexuality and Tolerance

Incomprehensible…as long as homosexuals remain intolerant of our strong feelings about normal traditional marriage.

 

[hazcompat]

Servant of God Fulton J Sheen

There is no other subject on which the average mind is so much confused as the subject of tolerance and intolerance. Tolerance is always supposed to be desirable because it is taken to be synonymous with broadmindedness. Intolerance is always supposed to be undesirable, because it is taken to be synonymous with narrow-mindedness. This is not true, for tolerance and intolerance apply to two totally different things. Tolerance applies only to persons, but never to principles. Intolerance applies only to principles, but never to persons. We must be tolerant to persons because they are human; we must be intolerant about principles because they are divine. We must be tolerant to the erring, because ignorance may have led them astray; but we must be intolerant to the error, because Truth is not our making, but God’s. And hence the Church in her history, due reparation made, has always welcomed the heretic back into the treasury of her souls, but never his heresy into the treasury of her wisdom.

Peace.

 

[hazcompat]

The world may charge the Church with intolerance, and the world is right. The Church is intolerant; intolerant about Truth, intolerant about principles, intolerant about Divinity, just as Our Blessed Lord was intolerant about His Divinity. The other religions may change their principles, and they do change them, because their principles are man-made. The Church cannot change, because her principles are God-made. Religion is not a sum of beliefs that we would like, but the sum of beliefs God has given. The world may disagree with the Church, but the world knows very definitely with what it is disagreeing. In the future as in the past, the Church will be intolerant about the sanctity of marriage, for what God has joined together no man shall put asunder; she will be intolerant about her creed, and be ready to die for it, for she fears not those who kill the body, but rather those who have the power to cast body and soul into hell. She will be intolerant about her infallibility, for “Lo,” says Christ, “I am with you all the days even unto the end of the world.” And while she is intolerant even to blood, in adhering to the truths given her by her Divine Founder, she will be tolerant to those who say she is intolerant, for the same Divine Founder has taught her to say: “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.”
There are only two positions to take concerning truth, and both of them had their hearing centuries ago in the court-room of Solomon where two women claimed a babe. A babe is like truth; it is one; it is whole; it is organic and it cannot be divided. The real mother of ‘the babe would accept no compromise. She was intolerant about her claim. She must have the whole babe, or nothing-the intolerance of Motherhood. But the false mother was tolerant. She was willing to compromise. She was willing to divide the babe-and the babe would have met its death through broadmindedness.

Taken from the book “Moods and Truths” (Published in 1932)

Peace

 

[Kal2012]

1. Science and religion aren’t opposites. As a convert, I can tell you from experience that Catholicism is very rational and well-thought out when it comes to its approach to science.
2. Tolerance is a two-way street. I get sick of the double-standard when it comes to this issue because I’m asked to tolerate the idea that gay people want to get married, but gay people don’t want to tolerate anyone who disagrees with that value.

Marriage isn’t just a government contract, but a sacrament in our church. That is a vital difference that you can’t just ignore because it makes you uncomfortable as someone who’s not religious. That’s also why people “flip out” when you start trying to compare their sacred, religious marriage to secular, civil marriages.

1. There’s a huge difference between what Western society tolerates vs what God tolerates.

 

[migueltojose]

The world may charge the Church with intolerance, and the world is right. The Church is intolerant; intolerant about Truth, intolerant about principles, intolerant about Divinity, just as Our Blessed Lord was intolerant about His Divinity. The other religions may change their principles, and they do change them, because their principles are man-made. The Church cannot change, because her principles are God-made. Religion is not a sum of beliefs that we would like, but the sum of beliefs God has given. The world may disagree with the Church, but the world knows very definitely with what it is disagreeing. In the future as in the past, the Church will be intolerant about the sanctity of marriage, for what God has joined together no man shall put asunder; she will be intolerant about her creed, and be ready to die for it, for she fears not those who kill the body, but rather those who have the power to cast body and soul into hell. She will be intolerant about her infallibility, for “Lo,” says Christ, “I am with you all the days even unto the end of the world.” And while she is intolerant even to blood, in adhering to the truths given her by her Divine Founder, she will be tolerant to those who say she is intolerant, for the same Divine Founder has taught her to say: “Father, forgive them, they know not what they do.”
There are only two positions to take concerning truth, and both of them had their hearing centuries ago in the court-room of Solomon where two women claimed a babe. A babe is like truth; it is one; it is whole; it is organic and it cannot be divided. The real mother of ‘the babe would accept no compromise. She was intolerant about her claim. She must have the whole babe, or nothing-the intolerance of Motherhood. But the false mother was tolerant. She was willing to compromise. She was willing to divide the babe-and the babe would have met its death through broadmindedness.

Taken from the book “Moods and Truths” (Published in 1932)

Peace

Awesomeness… thanks…

 

[djames99]

For people who are Catholic and also accepting of homosexuality, how did you come to have this opinion and how do you reconcile it with Catholic teachings?

It is because of the fact they cannot accept it, true Catholics use the tools at their disposal to start a regime of change in their lives. The work of the ones that try implies they are not accepting their state and are willing to give the benefit of the doubt to God.

They have found by being good Catholics, by observing the Church’s obligations, and making zealous use of the Sacraments only she has sanction to provide(in particular the Sacraments of Reconciliation and the Blessed Eucharist), the Holy Spirit bestows on them the graces to step out of themselves(deny themselves), and look upon their past life in a new detached perspective. Along with these graces comes an increasingly measured degree of abhorrence for their concupiscent drives.

The Church is the best friend of anyone with this affliction, and is the only religion that truly cares.

 

[VyMajoris]

I will try my best to be respectful and I hope you will do the same for me.

Can do.

Growing up, I found it very difficult to reconcile my religion with my love of science (big bang, evolution, etc.), and eventually found that I had to choose one above the other. I chose science, and drifted away from religion for ages before I finally called myself Agnostic.

Silly you. There is no contradiction here.
Science as we know is the study of a very narrow vertical slice of the world.
The Catholic Church has, in its teachings, the view of the entire world in a horizontal way.

Take the Cross. The bigger slice is the vertical. It represents Jesus, the way to salvation. The smaller slice is the horizontal, it represents the world connected to Jesus, the way to salvation.
In other words, the Church teachings can take the entire world and put each atomic part of it in relation to God.

This mentality that there is a separation between “reason and the Church” happens because, as I said, people take a very slice of reality and study it as it was the only thing happening in the universe.

I’m also a lesbian and I hope to marry a woman through the government someday.

It is called “civil union”. Not Marriage. Marriage comes from Latin: Matri-moni. It means Mother-Making. As far as I’m aware, you need a father in order to have a mother.

As a child, people outside of my family indirectly taught me that homosexuality was a sin.

They are correct.

It made self acceptance extremely difficult as well as caused resentment towards Christianity.

Welp… There is that thing called Confessionary. People go there to be absolved of their sins. And when you are absolved of your sins you have no sins. That is until you sin again. You can repeat the process for as long as you need.

You(and many people who doesn’t understand the Church) can’t see the difference between sin and sinner. You are not your sin.

As for me, I have sins of mine that I would describe as part of me… They are frequent and I like them. But I know that these sins are not part of me and that they are destroying me.
If I(with help of God) can overcome these sins through praying and the Sacraments, this will be a glory that I’ll have and that it be in my favor when my judgement comes.

I take that people who defines themselves are homosexuals have a huge chance to win the ultimate prize. All they have to do is remain in the chastity and that will have a huge impact on their judgment. They will be fighting against a giant industry and culture that is telling them to do otherwise.

It’s very difficult for me to appreciate my Catholic background when its primary contributions to my life were oppression and self-hatred.

Why? Because you are homosexual?
Once people start taking sex as a recreational tool, anything can happen. This is major problem here. And this major problem happens with 99% percent of the world population.

When heterosexuals realize that the Church is also against recreational sex, they will feel the same thing you are feeling.

For people who are Catholic and also accepting of homosexuality

You mean: Catholics who are not being Catholic?
Why do you want the opinion of X if this “X” is not really a X?

For people who put science above the bible yet still manage to be religious, how do you balance both?

Again, science as we know is neither above or below the Bible.

(NOTE: I am not looking to be converted to Catholicism or to be reprimanded for my sexuality, so please don’t do that.

Well, you are asking me to disobey God.
I don’t even think that your major problem is your sexuality, but your lack understanding of the teachings of the Church.

You really won’t get anywhere and it’ll only add to my negative bias.

Oh you are mistaken right there… I’ll be getting Somewhere…

 

[Kevin_B]

As a Catholic who openly embraces homosexuality, I’ll hopefully answer your questions.

Supposedly the Pope is infallible only in matters of faith. Whether or not two women can obtain a legal document is in no way a matter if faith, so the popes opinion in the matter does not have to be followed.

As for homosexuality in general? Use logic. It isn’t sinful fur 2 sterile heterosexuals to have sex, so therefore sex is not all about procreation, and therefore homosexuality is OK. Not all Catholics agree with everything the Pope says.

Hopefully in our lifetimes the Church will begin to embrace your live and bless your union.

 

[Tzimisce]

With all due niceness, why are you here?

Although Pope Francis is giving confusing messages, I believe the Catholic faith has always been rather clear on Homosexuality.

I’m not Catholic - true. But I’ve been on the receiving end of the opposite of what you’re talking about.

I’m always being accused of “hating gay people”. Of course, what they really mean when they say that “Are you in favor of giving the gay community everything it demands”?

I’m opposed to gay marriage simply because they lost at the ballot box. That’s how our system works. There is no “right” to gay marriage.

Gays will often quote “freedom of religion” when presented with that. Funny that the 1st Amendment covers their marriage, but not someone refusing to make a cake for said marriage.

The Gay community has gotten a few friends in high places and that’s the only reason it’s a debate now.

 

[migueltojose]

As a Catholic who openly embraces homosexuality, I’ll hopefully answer your questions.

Supposedly the Pope is infallible only in matters of faith. Whether or not two women can obtain a legal document is in no way a matter if faith, so the popes opinion in the matter does not have to be followed.

As for homosexuality in general? Use logic. It isn’t sinful fur 2 sterile heterosexuals to have sex, so therefore sex is not all about procreation, and therefore homosexuality is OK. Not all Catholics agree with everything the Pope says.

Hopefully in our lifetimes the Church will begin to embrace your live and bless your union.

Logic… I think that is quite a logical ‘bridge too far’ from “sex is not all about procreation” to “therefore homosexuality is OK”…

Sex is not about sex. “Sex” is a derivative of unitive love between a married man and woman and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Open to life. Abraham’s wife Sarah was “sterile” too.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church handles the topic rather deftly, brilliantly and beautifully. Admittedly, it is often misconstrued.

 

[blaskoman]

I am a single heterosexual male. The Church teaches that I abstain from masterbation, pre-marital sex, even porn. Do I feel that I am being discriminated against?! By no means! Such prohibitions are for my own spiritual welfare, just as is the prohibition against sodomy.

 

[Luker]

As a Catholic who openly embraces homosexuality, I’ll hopefully answer your questions.

Supposedly the Pope is infallible only in matters of faith. Whether or not two women can obtain a legal document is in no way a matter if faith, so the popes opinion in the matter does not have to be followed.

As for homosexuality in general? Use logic. It isn’t sinful fur 2 sterile heterosexuals to have sex, so therefore sex is not all about procreation, and therefore homosexuality is OK. Not all Catholics agree with everything the Pope says.

Hopefully in our lifetimes the Church will begin to embrace your live and bless your union.

You’re one of those Catholics who think you have the right to re-write the guidelines of the church. First, TRUE Catholics do NOT believe in the homosexual lifestyle…and Catholics have never believed in sex outside of marriage as being “ok”…so where did you get your information and why bother saying you’re Catholic if you don’t want to follow the guidelines the church has set up? We can’t just change religion to accommodate ourselves.