Homosexuality and Tolerance

[RosslynV]

Look at the top right of my posts, where it says, “Religion: Buddhist”. I disagree with a great deal of what the Catholic Church says.

rossum

Why are you here, to cause trouble ?! Some of your statements border on the mental such as if God wills it, a homosexual couple can produce kids. Keep that up and the nice men in white coats will lock you away.

But do check out the papal encyclical Humane Vitae and you will see what the true Church believes about reproduction.

 

[petra22]

I keep having this recurring thought that there is some massive social engineering project in the works and these ‘social issues’ are merely precursor experiments to see how quickly ridiculous ideas can be foisted into the ‘group think’ of society. At some point, I suspect in the near future, when the masses have been sufficiently massaged, there will be a final move towards indoctrination at some very basic - perhaps ideological or political - level that will redefine the social order on a global scale.

In the past, I have tried to resist this idea as nonsensical, but the longer I live the more cogent it becomes because it seems to fit closely with the way the social order is being orchestrated. Individuals are much more susceptible these days, it seems, to ‘going with the flow’ than ever before. Public opinion seems much too ready to swallow holus bolus whatever is the current slop du jour as if every new idea is the best EVER conceived. The rise of social media and the coercive influence of the crowd has given rise to a bizarre number of faddish tendencies that invade deeper and deeper into the core of what it means to be human. Perhaps these fads have always been an aspect of human existence, but they seem to be more contrived and manipulated by power mongers than ever before.

A key principle undergirding manipulation is that ‘tolerance’ is a virtue. The more tolerant an individual is to the wild, eccentric or innovative the more s/he demonstrates readiness to be influenced. This appears a deceptively innocuous trait since open-mindedness has some value if one is ‘minded’ to begin with, but absent a thought-competent base from which to function, tolerance begins to take on attributes that make it indistinguishable from lunacy. :twocents:

:twocents::twocentsI’m adding two cents in agreement with yours!)

 

[rossum]

Some of your statements border on the mental such as if God wills it, a homosexual couple can produce kids.

If God can produce an adult woman (Eve) from one man (Adam) then it should not be beyond the bounds of possibility for the same God to produce a child from two men, or from two women.

If the Christian God is omnipotent, as claimed, then there are not a lot of things that He cannot do.

rossum

 

[Peter_Plato]

If God can produce an adult woman (Eve) from one man (Adam) then it should not be beyond the bounds of possibility for the same God to produce a child from two men, or from two women.

If the Christian God is omnipotent, as claimed, then there are not a lot of things that He cannot do.

rossum

It would appear that the fact the omniscient mind settled upon one means of reproduction for humans and rejected the others implies that merely possible avenues (what omnipotence can do) are not necessarily live options (what omnipotence does do.)

That some humans - humans who clearly lack omniscience - have taken matters into their own hands to remedy the oversights of omniscience - as if omniscience could not have known better and requires correction - is a rather comical suggestion.

Yes, I know, you have no ‘belief’ in omniscience. But then why bring up decidedly ‘God’ characteristics as if they can be co-opted to support any possible position merely because “all things are possible with God?”

Surely omniscience implies some capacity to differentiate between the merely possible and the decidedly preferable, no?

 

[rossum]

It would appear that the fact the omniscient mind settled upon one means of reproduction for humans and rejected the others implies that merely possible avenues (what omnipotence can do) are not necessarily live options (what omnipotence does do.)

It would appear that the fact the omniscient mind settled upon more than one sexuality for humans and rejected the option of a single sexuality implies that merely possible avenues (what omnipotence can do) are not necessarily live options (what omnipotence does do.)

That some humans - humans who clearly lack omniscience - have taken matters into their own hands to remedy the oversights of omniscience - as if omniscience could not have known better and requires correction - is a rather comical suggestion.

That some humans - humans who clearly lack omniscience - have taken matters into their own hands to remedy the oversights of omniscience - as if omniscience could not have known better and requires correction - is a rather comical suggestion.

Of course, my paragraph immediately above refers to the first paragraph I wrote in this post. I didn’t even need to change a word.

Surely omniscience implies some capacity to differentiate between the merely possible and the decidedly preferable, no?

So, by your own argument multiple human sexualities are preferable to a single sexuality for all humans. This is confirmed by the appearance of same-sex relations among other species.

rossum

 

[Bodhi303]

That is very sad information about LGBT community being prone to alcoholism, poor nutrition and suicide.
Rather than see this information as reasons why that life style is problematic and to be avoided, perhaps we should see it this way.
Perhaps the reason why these issues are in their community is we (Christianity) are inflicting pain upon them (LGBT).
Perhaps their suicide rate is so high because we’ve been telling them since they were young their inclinations are “wrong.” And if they act on their inclinations they are BAD people. The punishment for their actions is to kick them out of our households and our communities. We leave them with the choice to live alone and hated by God, or live with their family and parish but in silent self loathing. It is already a herculean task to be a teenager; it must be a nightmare to be a teenager who is homosexual. And we wonder why they are killing themselves. Maybe we are driving them to it.
LGBT community likely have poor nutrition because they sooth their self loathing by eating things that are not healthy. And likewise they might be soothing their self loathing with alcoholism.

Maybe WE’VE caused their pain. With our stares and whispers as gay people enter a restaurant; With the disowning of our children who “come out of the closet.” With our chants of God made Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve. I’m a fighter, I’ve done martial arts all my life, and these actions are equivalent to body shots in a fight. Body shots are meant to weaken one’s resolve to fight.
We then justify our vitriol with eloquent apologetics hurling the catechism and the bible at their heads (Knockout shots).
If those facts about the LGBT community are true then we are breaking their spirits. Driving them to drink, to obesity, and ultimately to commit suicide. Sorry, but I just don’t see Christ in any of that.
We should not be using these facts to sharpen our apologetics but rather as a reason to apply mercy. Maybe that’s what the original poster was asking for…. Mercy. She was so wonderfully willing to offer us mercy. Yet we who are called to be the most proficient at mercy refuse to give mercy. Shame on us

Please remember once upon a time Christianity biblically justified the enslavement of Africans worldwide. For Christians in America this subject matter was so culturally and scripturally rooted that it divided households, and nearly divided the entire country. At that time Christian teachings on slavery were clear, slavery is acceptable. Despite this the Holy Spirit decisively intervened in that erroneous perception. Perhaps, despite Christian teachings being very clear on homosexuality and the subject matter dividing households (hopefully not our nation) the Holy Spirit is once again working His wonders. If this were true once again based on scriptural teachings We’d miss the opportunity to be accomplices in God’s grace and instead find ourselves in opposition of love and mercy.

 

[kozlosap]

I wonder why two respected and obviously intelligent physicians would engage in a homosexual relationship when the chance of sexually transmitted disease is so high within the homosexual community. Also the rate of suicide is extremely high within that group.

I am not sure what you mean by:…

“Maybe by then we will be worked more about helping those in need instead of patrolling bedrooms. ”

I, for one, am not interested in patrolling bedrooms. But I will not tolerate having my children told that homosexual behavior is normal and acceptable.

They have been together fifteen years, why on earth is that a difference from a straight couple being monogamous and not worried about STD’s? Yes, the suicide rate is very high, especially among gay youth that are not loved and accepted by their families and treated like an outcast. Lucky for my nephew, he had a family that had thought he was most likely gay from the time he was a child and it was not a shock when he “came out” after he graduated from college.

Most likely your children will make up their own minds about if being gay is disordered or not. My dad was a closet racist, and yet, my sister and I chose not to believe or live our lives according to his point of view. As i mentioned earlier, it is our children who, thankfully, will make the attitudes of our world change.

 

[davidv]

They have been together fifteen years, why on earth is that a difference from a straight couple being monogamous and not worried about STD’s? Yes, the suicide rate is very high, especially among gay youth that are not loved and accepted by their families and treated like an outcast. Lucky for my nephew, he had a family that had thought he was most likely gay from the time he was a child and it was not a shock when he “came out” after he graduated from college.

Most likely your children will make up their own minds about if being gay is disordered or not. My dad was a closet racist, and yet, my sister and I chose not to believe or live our lives according to his point of view. As i mentioned earlier, it is our children who, thankfully, will make the attitudes of our world change.

Highlighting mine.

The highlighted section is precisely the sin of Adam. Only God gets to decide what is morally disordered. He communicates these decisions through His Church.

 

[kozlosap]

Highlighting mine.

The highlighted section is precisely the sin of Adam. Only God gets to decide what is morally disordered. He communicates these decisions through His Church.

In order to live as “one” with our faith, we must also have a well developed conscience. I (down to my very core), do not believe that being gay is disordered. I confess this belief every time I go to reconcilliation. My confessor told me that he also confesses this struggle with what the Church teaches and what he believes. At one time it was a sin to believe that the earth orbits the sun and that the earth is round. Hopefully in the next one hundred years or so, She (the Church), will admit that there are different sexual orientations and that people are born with that orientation. I do not believe in sola Scriptura.

 

[Peter_Plato]

So, by your own argument multiple human sexualities are preferable to a single sexuality for all humans. This is confirmed by the appearance of same-sex relations among other species.

rossum

Assuming the naturalistic fallacy is not a fallacy, after all.

Since when is two exactly equivalent to multiple?

Making sexuality irrelevant is, reductively speaking, identical to having a single sexuality since gender becomes effectively meaningless - which, of course, fits with your flavour of Buddhism where all distinctions are ultimately meaningless.

To wit: The ultimate truth is that there is no Ultimate Truth.

Yet you keep trying to persuade all who will listen that your version of ‘truth’ is somehow more valid than others. Ostensibly, ‘your version’ is supposed to be ‘void,’ but seemingly isn’t.

 

[Peter_Plato]

At one time it was a sin to believe that the earth orbits the sun and that the earth is round.

Not true. Could you provide definitive proof that this was ever the case?

The notion that the Earth is a flat disk located at the centre of the universe, or that the cosmos is a ‘sphere’ surrounding it, were distinctively astrological ideas bolstered by professional astrologers who made a good living through ancient Roman and Medieval times prognosticating future events based upon the position of heavenly bodies relative to a stable Earth. The notion was never significantly challenged, nor at all supported by Church teaching, per se, since it was viewed as the prerogative of natural philosophers, astrologers and the like. There have been, however, a consistent line of philosophers (Boethius), theologians (Aquinas) and scientists (Copernicus) affiliated with the Church that have questioned the ideas (actually three distinct propositions) with sufficient vigor that there has always existed doubt regarding the true nature of physical reality.

You need to spend some time looking into the ‘hands off’ approach that the Church has held in the past (and continues to) with regard to the natural order, aka secondary causation.

Moral issues are a completely separate matter, however.

 

[Rau]

In order to live as “one” with our faith, we must also have a well developed conscience. I (down to my very core), do not believe that being gay is disordered. I confess this belief every time I go to reconcilliation. My confessor told me that he also confesses this struggle with what the Church teaches and what he believes. At one time it was a sin to believe that the earth orbits the sun and that the earth is round. Hopefully in the next one hundred years or so, She (the Church), will admit that there are different sexual orientations and that people are born with that orientation. I do not believe in sola Scriptura.

The fact that some are attracted to the same sex is not in doubt. The reason, or cause is not known, though I note you have formed a view that it arises pre-birth.

Being “gay” is not disordered (so your conscience is on the money on this point). The same sex sexual attraction is disordered, in fact it is “objectively” so. It is an attraction which is at odds with the individual’s very body. It is a distressing situation for many to face.

The Church calls those who face this trial to remain chaste by living the single life well.

 

[Peter_Plato]

In order to live as “one” with our faith, we must also have a well developed conscience. I (down to my very core), do not believe that being gay is disordered. I confess this belief every time I go to reconcilliation. My confessor told me that he also confesses this struggle with what the Church teaches and what he believes. At one time it was a sin to believe that the earth orbits the sun and that the earth is round. Hopefully in the next one hundred years or so, She (the Church), will admit that there are different sexual orientations and that people are born with that orientation. I do not believe in sola Scriptura.

The Church also teaches that all human beings are “born into a state of original sin” without conceding that such a state relieves all human beings of moral responsibility.

The difficulty, it would seem, comes from the presumptions behind what “being gay” entails.

Does “being promiscuous,” “being immoral,” “being profligate,” or “being a sinner” entail anything with regard to whether such states should be permitted as legitimate “states” of existence?

 

[Zoltan_Cobalt]

That is very sad information about LGBT community being prone to alcoholism, poor nutrition and suicide.
Rather than see this information as reasons why that life style is problematic and to be avoided, perhaps we should see it this way.
Perhaps the reason why these issues are in their community is we (Christianity) are inflicting pain upon them (LGBT).
Perhaps their suicide rate is so high because we’ve been telling them since they were young their inclinations are “wrong.” And if they act on their inclinations they are BAD people. The punishment for their actions is to kick them out of our households and our communities. We leave them with the choice to live alone and hated by God, or live with their family and parish but in silent self loathing. It is already a herculean task to be a teenager; it must be a nightmare to be a teenager who is homosexual. And we wonder why they are killing themselves. Maybe we are driving them to it.
LGBT community likely have poor nutrition because they sooth their self loathing by eating things that are not healthy. And likewise they might be soothing their self loathing with alcoholism.

Maybe WE’VE caused their pain. With our stares and whispers as gay people enter a restaurant; With the disowning of our children who “come out of the closet.” With our chants of God made Adam and Eve, Not Adam and Steve. I’m a fighter, I’ve done martial arts all my life, and these actions are equivalent to body shots in a fight. Body shots are meant to weaken one’s resolve to fight.
We then justify our vitriol with eloquent apologetics hurling the catechism and the bible at their heads (Knockout shots).
If those facts about the LGBT community are true then we are breaking their spirits. Driving them to drink, to obesity, and ultimately to commit suicide. Sorry, but I just don’t see Christ in any of that.
We should not be using these facts to sharpen our apologetics but rather as a reason to apply mercy. Maybe that’s what the original poster was asking for…. Mercy. She was so wonderfully willing to offer us mercy. Yet we who are called to be the most proficient at mercy refuse to give mercy. Shame on us

Please remember once upon a time Christianity biblically justified the enslavement of Africans worldwide. For Christians in America this subject matter was so culturally and scripturally rooted that it divided households, and nearly divided the entire country. At that time Christian teachings on slavery were clear, slavery is acceptable. Despite this the Holy Spirit decisively intervened in that erroneous perception. Perhaps, despite Christian teachings being very clear on homosexuality and the subject matter dividing households (hopefully not our nation) the Holy Spirit is once again working His wonders. If this were true once again based on scriptural teachings We’d miss the opportunity to be accomplices in God’s grace and instead find ourselves in opposition of love and mercy.

Very eloquent…but I am not falling for the “guilt trip” and neither should any Christian.

Christians and society do not force people into homosexuality. The responsibility is theirs.

Those who become homosexual should know by now that it is a problematic lifestyle.
An intelligent person does not need an organized religion to tell him that homosexuality is based on unnatural sexual relations.

Those who CHOOSE to engage in this disorder do so at their own risk. And the risks are many.

Society as a whole has not accepted unnatural sexual relations as normal. Both the secular and religious communities consider homosexuals to be “different”. Therefore, in order to alleviate the social, physiological and health problems associated with homosexuality… the LGBT should face facts, drop this “in-your-face” attitude and do some serious behavior modification.

 

[Joie_de_Vivre]

Oh my…those lucky lesbians. A lower rate of STD’s compared to normal people.

However…

Lesbians have higher rates of alcohol use, poor nutrition, and obesity. These factors may increase the risk of breast, endometrial, and ovarian cancers, and other cancers.

I was mocking the people claiming that the higher HIV/AIDS rate amongst gays was proof that gay sex is sinful (it is sinful, but sins don’t necessarily have bad consequences as a direct result or even in the mortal world).

The alcoholism tends to start when they are still in the closet, once you’ve become an alcohol it can be very difficult to stop especially when many of your friends are also hard drinkers.

The poor obesity seems to at least partially be a consequence of not having a body image as poor as heterosexual women (poor body image is incredibly rampant amongst heterosexual women) and also the lack of pressure to be fit like men do.

 

[rossum]

Assuming the naturalistic fallacy is not a fallacy, after all.

So, your omnipotent God has no control over what appears in nature?

If He is omnipotent then He can ensure that whatever appears in nature is fully in accordance with His will.

We observe homosexuality in nature, among both humans and other species.

Is your God omnipotent or not? Does He wish for homosexuality to exist in humans? Does He wish for homosexuality to exist in other species?

You were using the argument from the method of human reproduction found in nature in your post above (#83). Was that also an example of the “naturalistic fallacy”? You argued from the appearance of X in nature to the conclusion that X must be God’s will. I also argued from the appearance of X in nature to the conclusion that X must be God’s will. Your X was sexual reproduction, my X was different sexualities. What is the logical difference?

rossum

 

[Coatimundi]

If God can produce an adult woman (Eve) from one man (Adam) then it should not be beyond the bounds of possibility for the same God to produce a child from two men, or from two women.

Yes, God can set aside the laws of nature. They are laws which he created. He could also create a rock so heavy that he can’t lift it… if that is what he wanted.

As Catholics, we know from the Bible that God gave children to a couple who were well past the normal age of fertility. He did so because that is what he wanted. Similarly, he could also produce a child from a male-male union…if he wanted to do so.

We don’t get to choose what miracles God will produce, nor can we choose when he will do so. We can only follow God’s will. The Catholic Church teaches that God does not want us to engage in homosexual activity.

 

[Luker]

Very eloquent…but I am not falling for the “guilt trip” and neither should any Christian.

Christians and society do not force people into homosexuality. The responsibility is theirs.

Those who become homosexual should know by now that it is a problematic lifestyle.
An intelligent person does not need an organized religion to tell him that homosexuality is based on unnatural sexual relations.

Those who CHOOSE to engage in this disorder do so at their own risk. And the risks are many.

Society as a whole has not accepted unnatural sexual relations as normal. Both the secular and religious communities consider homosexuals to be “different”. Therefore, in order to alleviate the social, physiological and health problems associated with homosexuality… the LGBT should face facts, drop this “in-your-face” attitude and do some serious behavior modification.

Thumbs up.

 

[migueltojose]

And as Bishop Sheen used to say… the truth is the truth even if no one believes it and a lie is a lie even if everyone believes it…

I trust the Church’s teachings. I’ve tested them on several occasions and various topics and always end up relenting. These people are smart.

Our problem, if I dare say so, is that we are such a small minority. And it happened so fast that many of us have a hard time dealing with it. We rant and write emotional pleas, etc. But the fact is we have to learn to be a minor minority, stop whining and work hard to change it.

The answer is in education, evangelization and enlightenment coupled with courage, resources and opportunity. It started with 12.

Otherwise, majority rules when it comes to social change and direction. I think we should be more libertarian. God gave us free will and the Church reinforces this all the time. People should choose to follow Church teaching. People should choose to be true. We can’t force them to choose to accept the truth. We have to convince them.

 

[Amandil]

So, your omnipotent God has no control over what appears in nature?

If He is omnipotent then He can ensure that whatever appears in nature is fully in accordance with His will.

We observe homosexuality in nature, among both humans and other species.

Is your God omnipotent or not? Does He wish for homosexuality to exist in humans? Does He wish for homosexuality to exist in other species?

You were using the argument from the method of human reproduction found in nature in your post above (#83). Was that also an example of the “naturalistic fallacy”? You argued from the appearance of X in nature to the conclusion that X must be God’s will. I also argued from the appearance of X in nature to the conclusion that X must be God’s will. Your X was sexual reproduction, my X was different sexualities. What is the logical difference?

rossum

You really ought to look up what something means rather than assuming what something means and spouting off from that.

The “naturalistic fallacy” doesn’t have to do with natural law or nature.

The “naturalistic fallacy” is based on the principle that you cannot get more from less.

In terms of homosexual acts and the facts of science it is clear that two homosexuals cannot beget children of their own by any means they alone possess. Two women cannot generate a child through coitus between themselves nor can two men generate a child through coitus between themselves. Its impossible in fact.

Since a male and female CAN generate a child through coitus it necessarily follows that homosexuality is necessarily worse than heterosexuality.

Therefore your idea of “different sexualities” is claiming “more from less”, “ought from is.”

You’re whole argument isn’t based upon the good of persons but on a liberal notion of “indiscriminateness” where to discriminate against anything is a moral evil.

In any case your assumption regarding natural law is flawed as well since “natural law” is not defined as how “nature”(this fallen world) appears to human observation(that’s called biology), “natural law” is a philosophical science which examines human nature and posits how human nature ought to act based upon an identity between how we are made and right reason(ethics).