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andrewstx
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The Episcopal church is the American version of the C of E, now you know.
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SevensKnight
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What is the purpose of sex? To create life. What is the purpose of homosexuality? Honestly - nothing, but lust and destruction. You essentially sacrifice yourself and future generations all due to an illusionary practice.
Below is the link to Dr. Cameron’s research on homosexuality:
biblebelievers.com/Cameron3.html
The four (4) major causes of homosexuality are:
Below is the link to Dr. Cameron’s research on homosexuality:
biblebelievers.com/Cameron3.html
The four (4) major causes of homosexuality are:
- Homosexual experience: any homosexual experience in childhood, especially if it is a first sexual experience or with an adult, any homosexual contact with an adult, particularly with a relative or authority figure (in a random survey, 5% of adult homosexuals vs 0.8% of heterosexuals reported childhood sexual involvements with elementary or secondary school teachers (5).
- Family abnormality, including the following:
a dominant, possessive, or rejecting mother,an absent, distant, or rejecting father, a parent with homosexual proclivities, particularly one who molests a child of the same sex
a sibling with homosexual tendencies, particularly one who molests a brother or sister
the lack of a religious home environment,
divorce, which often leads to sexual problems for both the children and the adults
parents who model unconventional sex roles
condoning homosexuality as a legitimate lifestyle– welcoming homosexuals (e.g., co-workers, friends) into the family circle - Unusual sexual experience, particularly in early childhood:
precocious or excessive masturbation, exposure to pornography in childhood,
depersonalized sex (e.g., group sex, sex with animals) or girls, sexual interaction with adult males - Cultural influences: a visible and socially approved homosexual sub-culture that invites curiosity and encourages exploration, pro-homosexual sex education, openly homosexual authority figures, such as teachers (4% of Kinsey’s and 4% of FRI’s gays reported that their first homosexual experience was with a teacher), societal and legal toleration of homosexual acts, depictions of homosexuality as normal and/or desirable behavior
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Cristiano
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You cannot re-define the terminology used by the Church. First Natural Law it is not simply what is normal for a man or a woman to do, if you go to a book of moral theology you can see that the Church is very careful in the language that she uses.
When the Church talks about acts like in the case of homosexual acts she refers to something determined by the will; however, same sex attraction is a thought but it is not determined by the will.
Moral disorder is not a mental disorder, you are mixing two aspects of the human nature: the spiritual one and the physical one. Concupiscence is a generalized moral disorder but nobody in his right mind would call it a mental disorder. If a married man is attracted by a magazine showing a naked women on the cover he has a moral disorder but he does not have a mental illness.
Yes the link is the right one. The letter talks quite a bit about the nature of the disorder.
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Charlemagne_II
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Johnny
The Church regards homosexuality as a disordered condition, but not sinful unless you act upon it (sodomy). All sexual relations outside of marriage are disordered and sinful. Surely as a Catholic you understand this. Sodomites who commit suicide, I believe, are people who have become disgusted with themselves and lost hope. No one can drive another person to commit suicide. But one can certainly drive oneself to do it. It’s called self-murder. The Catholic Church opposes and condemns all kinds of behavior that are suicidal, including, gluttony, drunkenness, promiscuity, etc.
Conform yourself to the Catholic Church and God rather than setting yourself up as being more right than God and the Church.
The Church regards homosexuality as a disordered condition, but not sinful unless you act upon it (sodomy). All sexual relations outside of marriage are disordered and sinful. Surely as a Catholic you understand this. Sodomites who commit suicide, I believe, are people who have become disgusted with themselves and lost hope. No one can drive another person to commit suicide. But one can certainly drive oneself to do it. It’s called self-murder. The Catholic Church opposes and condemns all kinds of behavior that are suicidal, including, gluttony, drunkenness, promiscuity, etc.
Conform yourself to the Catholic Church and God rather than setting yourself up as being more right than God and the Church.
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MindOverMatter2
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manualman
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I don’t want to fight either, but discussion would be good. Perhaps this is a semantics problem. Phrases often mean different things to different people.
What I hear you objecting to is the idea that if SSA is a “moral disorder” than you are a bad person if you have it, while if it is mental, that’s just a sickness that isn’t your fault. I’d like to suggest a different way of looking at it.
Moral disorder describes ALL humans since Original Sin. We each just have different ones. You’re very brave to share one particular one of yours. Everybody else here has plenty of their own. Calvinism sees the effects of this as being humans are totally depraved (bad people). Not cool. Catholicism says it leaves us good, but fallen. Like a Shakesperean tragic hero. That’s how God sees us (and why Shakespeare still resonates in the human heart).
You can’t necessarily help the evils you are inclined towards. All you can do is struggle to control them and accept the Grace to do good instead. God bless.
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MindOverMatter2
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Sorry; its not like having an inclination towards evil. If you develop sexual attraction towards the same sex instead of the opposite sex, then this represents an error in ones sexual development. Its a disorder; and it possibly has genetic elements to it as well.
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Zundrah
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I don’t know if what you are saying is correct. But I suppose I should have (and did think of it at the time) stated as I posted the Catechism text for you, that I did it at your request but had no intention or enough information to be able to start therefore after any debate or discussion about the topic. Sorry.
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Cristiano
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I do not want you to feel sorry. I was just trying to make sure that people understand that more often than not some Church documents tell much more than what we think. In the thread about Dogmas re-formulation there is a very good post from a very well educated religious brother (I encourage you to read his posts here on CAF, I learned a lot from him) that states:
What he is implying is not that we should not read or quote the CCC but that we should really make the effort of digging much deeper than we originally planned if we really want to understand the intricacies and origins of the statements in the CCC.
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ConstantineTG
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I’m straight, but I admit I have many sins.
Same with me, but I’m still a sinner. I’ve never been in jail, I’ve never been to court (unless you count Small Claims as being in court, and at that I was the one suing for money), I’ve never been arrested, I’ve never paid a fine except for traffic violations, I don’t think I’ve been in more than 10 fights that got physical my entire life including elementary and highschool. But I am a sinner, even though what most people see is someone who abides by the rules and social norms, I have many sins.
No one is evil. Only the devil is evil. But when we give in to the devil, then we do evil things.
A child benefits from the nourishment of a loving father and a loving mother. Men and women are different. They are different physically, they are different psychologically. Two men or two women can never equate to the complete love and affection one man and one woman will give to a child.
I have ADD, I was born this way too. Does that mean people have to accept the fact that oftentimes I act lazy even though I don’t mean to, that I forget little details because I wasn’t paying attention even though I wanted to pay attention, that I can’t look at a person straight in the eye when talking to them, that sometimes I do something completely obnoxious and insane that even I cannot explain why I did it? Many who have ADD do end up in jail, perhaps they should just let them go because we are born this way. Is it enough of a justification? If a person is born blind, should they just embrace that even if they have a chance to gain sight?
I actually sympathize with all the gay men and women who have been physically and emotionally abused because of what they are dealing with. But that doesn’t change the fact that homosexuality is wrong. We should treat each other with respect and dignity because we are all human beings, and at the same time help and encourage each other to live the life that God expects us to live. What we have been given being born this way, with you being attracted to the same sex, with my ADD, it is indeed a cross that God has given us. It is not an excuse to make justification to what we have, but rather it give us the chance to achieve holiness by overcoming this hurdle we are born with. It actually gives me motivation to live more like God (be perfect as the Father in heaven is perfect) because if I make it then I know when Christ resurrects me on the last day, I will have no more ADD. I will for the first time think clearly without the assistance of medication. The wonderful part is I do get a glimpse of what heaven would be like, even a small bit for it.
I did go through a phase where I was in self pity. I realized I wasn’t normal. But you know what, I don’t know what normal is. I have never known in my life what other people think or how they think. I’ve made it this far in my life being this way, why stop now?
Be strong and pray. Want not what you want, but what God wants. Love not how you want to love, but how God wants to love. Be at peace always, let God’s love and peace fill your heart. We all have crosses to carry. If other people do not understand you, fine. Always go to God and follow what he does. He was laughed at, spat on, beaten up, and crucified. Don’t be afraid to follow this same path while carrying your own cross.
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Zundrah
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Yes I know you are right. So many subjects in the Catechism, so many literal works to look into even just for a small answer.
…and the problem really is, even if you ask for an answer here you may get a wrong one that claims to be accurate according to the CCC. It’s quite worrying. You can’t simply take anyones word for it. You have to find out yourself.
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Cristiano
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You are making a very valid point and that is why the Church told us in several occasions that we really need to use our own reason to develop our faith. I still think that usually the opinions on CAF are a very good starting point for our own research. Reading threads in this forum really helped me a lot of times in reaching a correct understanding much faster than if I were left do do a search from scratch on my own.
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nickybr38
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I would turn to the Apologists for accurate answers, not the members of this board. Very few here are experienced Apologists. Many are speaking from opinion. That’s just life.
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Zundrah
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A starting point yes. This is where it all started for me.
I wonder what I’d be doing in life if I never stumble into CAF all those years back.
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Zundrah
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nickybr38
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Have you tried private messages? Sometimes the Ask an Apologist thead won’t get an answer because a question has been addressed repeatedly BUT they are generally very good about answering private messages.
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maryjk
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The Catholic Church has never called you evil.
Just last year you were here telling us that you were very confused.
Again I question your posts from last year stating that you were confused?
Again, the Catholic Church doesn’t tell anyone that they are evil. Where have you heard this?
Hopefully you will come back and respond to some of the statements that have been made.
I know I would like to know where you heard that the Catholic Church calls Homosexuality “evil.”
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ChelleyD
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So…anybody seen Johnny lately? We’re up to five pages of comments and he hasn’t returned (that we know of) since his initial post. I’m thinking a Hit and Run has been committed here. Jes sayin’…
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Allegra
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Dear Johnny,
Other posters have done an excellent job explaining the Church’s real teachings on homosexuality to you, so I won’t write any more about that. However, the sentence above, from your original post, really bothers me.
It’s a mentality that is extremely wrong and dangerous. I speak to you as one who comes from a family that has suffered from suicide attempts. Suicide, is NOT caused by telling someone they are evil. (Even if it was true that the Church teaches that.) Suicide is a tragedy caused by a serious mental illness.
Currently there are people all over this world, who are living with terrible diseases, enslavement, contant fear, abuse, extreme poverty, imprisonment, and relentless persecution, with absolutely no realistic expectation of an end to their suffering, who have never once considered ending their own life. Meanwhile, there is a perfectly healthy, well-educated, and free young man or woman, who is the center of their family’s universe, and who has unlimited potential, pointing a loaded gun at his or her own head. Depression is what causes suicide, not outside circumstances. The only pain that is truely unbarable, comes from within, not from a Church telling you that your sexual choices are immoral.
This bothers me because if this mentality continues to be circulated, we will see innocent people’s lives destroyed because they allegedly “made someone kill themself”. The girl-friends who broke up with their boyfriend is now responsible because he went and jumped off a bridge. The parents who told their daughter that she must live under their house’s rules are now responsible for her cutting her wrists. The husband who elected to go to the game instead of staying home for dinner is now responsible when his wife decides to take a bottle full of pills. Do you see where this goes?
Recently, there was a local case of a young girl who killed herself. This girl was diagnosed with depression. She was being given medication that is not recommended to be taken by someone with depression and she was taking it in conjunction with depression medication. Another woman wrote some very means things to her that she should have not said. As a result, there are people who are perfectly happy to string this woman up for murder. Murder! For saying mean things on the internet! Does this really seem reasonable to you? I know you are concerned about homosexual teens and their struggles, but your contention that saying homosexuality is a sin causes them to kill themselves is a lie, and a very dangerous one, in my opinion.
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Elizabeth502
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SevensKnight, Thank you for post #57. Raw but true.
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