Homosexuality And Why The Church Is Wrong

[tqualey]

Hi, Wantobefree,

I am really not sure just where to begin. While Dakota may sing the praises of an illusion - please note, just like the water illusion in the desert, every illusion misleads and ultimately destroys purposeful behavior leading to positive action. It ain’t real so recognize it for what it is.

No one sets out with an attitude to maintain loneliness and despair with the intensity you have identified. This condition will not last for one reason or another. And, the fault lies with the attitude! Yes, I know that this is probably not what you had in mind - but, really, with a negative attitude, what else can possibly be even seen by you except what you think you are missing. Change the way you look at things - anything - and you will change your own reality. Continue to feel sorry for yourself and you will essentially have the self-fulfilling prophecy.

I am a Registered Nurse and have worked with both cancer and hospice patients. There really are physically worse things than not being able to be with the people you want to be with. Many of the patients I have taken care of have reviewed their own physical situation and decided that they will make the most of the time they have left. Some have energy and some don’t - some have pain that is well managed and some don’t - all have a choice to be just as happy as they allow themselves to be.

There is no inspiration in hopping into bed with anyone you want. The Church condemns this behavior for EVERYONE! If you’re taking medications that means you are seeing a doctor. Please be honest with your physician so you can get the care you need.

Being honest with yourself does not mean you are to give into your every desire. If you can’t find a creative outlet for your creative spirit, I suggest you need to get with groups that can be supportive - and share ideas with you. None of us delt ourselves the cards we now hold - but, we are expected to play our best, for this is how we will be judged.

Don’t lose heart or your chastity. Praying to our Blessed Mother will do much to relieve anyone of Devil’s temptations.

God bless

I agree with Dakota. As someone living the celibate life, let me tell you that even having an “illusion” or hope would serve me well right now. The feelings of loneliness and despair are so intense that I have had to start medication and I am only in my twenties. “Brotherhood” is also hard, when you’re not “out” to your family and friends it makes it so difficult to be around people when you’re shielding such a big part of your life. And you know that if they were to find out, you would lose them as friends, or at least lose the type of friendship you currently have. I know it is only a matter of time however before it all comes to the surface. I dread that day.

I wouldn’t wish this life on my worst enemy. I can’t imagine anything worse right now. I know everyone on this thread pretty much agrees with the Church’s teaching on homosexuality etc and you think you understand it but it is a very different story when you’re living it.

Please stop equating us to single/unmarried/divorced heteros this is NOT the same. This is an affliction that we have to bear and struggle with for the rest of our lives. It is not the same as just being single.

Close your eyes. Imagine for a minute that you are going to be unhappy every day for the rest of your life and you are facing this unhappiness alone. This is what I feel. I can predict people’s responses of building a relationship with Jesus to not feel alone etc etc and believe me I am trying but it’s hard when you feel like He is not helping.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Johnny760,

While you may not like the answers you have received - the vast majority have been spot on. Your view of the Catholic Church being wrong about this is something that you apparently want to maintain - despite cogent arguments to the contrary. This is your choice, but really, you made up your mind before you began this thread.

Concerning ‘blasphemy’ you may want to look carefully at that word, its definition and how you used it.

Concerning ‘idiots’ - not really the best choice of words and I agree with you there. The issue is not someone’s credentials, education or academic degrees - rather, how do they live their lives. There is a reason why children are not given razor blades to play with - it is not that they are ‘idiots’ but they are not mature enough to handle such an item. Dressing up as clowns, parading around to flaunt one’s disordered behavior (yeah, it really is) and mock those who they feel mock them - is not any type of demonstration of maturity.

Now, those who demonstrate maturity not only acknowledge reality but work with it so that they can move forward with their lives. The diabetic that eats sugar every chance he gets, avoids his medication and avoids exercise - is refusing to acknowledge reality (his disease) and to address it in a positive way (watching what he eats, exercising and taking his meds). Yeah, not much fun - but those who violate this, lose their vision, their limbs and their kidneys before they die - now that is what is not much fun!

Only you can decide just how happy you are going to be. Only you can decide if the swamp of homosexuality is where you want to say.

God bless

In response to a post that infuriated me: “Neither does having SSA mean that you have to dress up like an idiot whilst painting your face and taking part in gay pride parades. The people who are what we’d call camp gay are not doing the things they do because they believe in themselves and that they’re expressing their gayness, they only do the things they do because they are insecure about themselves. They can’t accept that they have same sex attraction so they force themselves into the gay community in order to justify their dirty activities. Yet guess what? Not all gays are like that and the other half doesn’t have to be like those insecure idiots”

*These camp males are not ‘idiots’. They’re doctors, lawyers, politicians. The only reason they parade during gay pride is because they are insecure? Such blasphemy. I can’t understand how one could be filled with such hate, whilst practicing what you preach ‘Love thy neighbor’?

I began this thread with the line ‘Homosexuality and why the Church is wrong’, and the responses have only validated that. This bickering and indecisiveness between yourselves just reenforces my point.*

We are creatures of love. There are many theories about why people are born homosexual (notice how I didn’t use ‘causes people to be born homosexual’, because ‘causes’ implies it is a thing, which it isn’t) and science has made observations that it is directly related to older brothers and genes, but that is neither here nor there.*

*On a final note, I would just like to emphasize my gratitude to those who privately messaged me, with incredible advice and support. My relationship with god is the most important thing in my life, and coming to terms with my sexuality has only strengthened it.

It gets better. *

 

[Johnny760]

If you’re saying that parading about something you are proud of is idiotic, fine, you can think that. That is a matter of opinion and nothing to do about the Catholic Church’s views on homosexuality.*

No, Beginning this thread I had no hidden agenda and my mind was not already made up. I sought advice and received it.*

As much as I disagree with your opinions, I respect them. What I can say is that times are changing, and homosexuality is not a big deal anymore in the world, and only remains one in the church.*

Just to share a personal story about coming to terms with my sexuality. About this time last year, I went to mass every single day. Often after the service I would sit outside the church, look up and pray that one day I would wake up ‘straight’. I would have done anything to be “normal”.

I wanted to change because the Catholic Church said that if I was to ever fulfill my sexual destiny, it would be sinful.*

Over time it dawned on me that it wasn’t wrong. Coming out was definitely a difficult experience, as I’m the polar opposite to the homosexuals portrayed in the media, and it was a shock to everybody I told. Life has gotten better, so much better.

Homosexuality is not unnatural. SSA is found in all different species, but homophobia is only found in one. So tell me which is more ‘unnatural’?*I’m happy to say that we live in a society where the minority has changed to the their being more homosexuals than homophobes.

 

[CGDouglas]

Homosexuality is not unnatural. SSA is found in all different species, but homophobia is only found in one. So tell me which is more ‘unnatural’?*I’m happy to say that we live in a society where the minority has changed to the their being more homosexuals than homophobes.

I’ve already listed quite a few reasons as to why it is unnatural:

Darwinian,
Ontological and Biological nature,
Population demographics,
God’s command.

How about you convince us of how it is ‘natural’? A few arguments would be nice to see, rather than unsupported assumptions. Just because a few mindless spieces practise it does not make it right. Animals cannibalise and kill their own young. They leave members behind when they’re dying, and when they’re weak especially when a predatory speices is fast upon their tracks. We’re not animals. Should we then cannibalise and kill our own young (the latter we do and try to justify it). Should we say that this should be natural because a few mindless animals do so? Should we leave our brothers on the front lines to their deaths and never go back to rescue? Basing on the animal kingdom has morally negative effects, that is because animals do not act in the same manner as man. If we basically tried to justify everything by the animal kingdom, man would be morally bankrupt, since the animal does not have an awareness of morality like man.

Your term homophobic makes no sense, afraid of man? afraid of the same? No one’s afraid of anything, it’s condemned for the plethitude of reasons, to a Catholic mainly because God has outright condemned the act of homosexuality.

God Bless,

Christopher.

 

[tqualey]

FONT=“Century Gothic”]Hi, Deo Volente,

Grace and Peace to you, too!

I must confess - I have read your post several times and continue to have a problem understanding your meaning. Maybe you can help me.

It seems to me that many of the concerns you have expressed have been address by Blessed Pope John Paul II. Here is a link: vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/encyclicals/documents/hf_jp-ii_enc_15101998_fides-et-ratio_en.html

Grace & Peace!

It seems to me that the bind in which many faithful Roman Catholic homosexuals find themselves has to do with the consciousness that human beings grow and develop best when they are in relationship with one another. Part of being and growing into the fullness of one’s humanity involves being in relationship and in community with others. /QUOTE]

Your initial paragraph identifies that you are talking about homosexuals (emphasis above is mine), yet everything here can quite accurately address all humans. Having loving relationships is really what God intended for us - from love and acceptance at our birth, throughout our lives, and in passing through death. Hatred, malice, prejudice and all manner of evil do not give us the environment we seek in this life. Developing solid human relationships - not in the sense of a parasitic attachment, but a mutual bond of unity and focus on a common direction is what really brings about the proper development of our humanity. Admittedly, these are ideal conditions - but, worth the effort to attain for all people at all times.

But since you have addressed this to homosexuals I am confused. Homosexuals can have these truly experiences but not in a sexual way. Unmarried male and female people are under the same prohibition. Sex is for marriage. And, this is what the Catholic Church teaches.
Deo Volente;9169681:

Your initial paragraph identifies that

Being in relationship is fundamental to human nature. And desiring a partner with whom one can completely share one’s life is a desire which is part of that fundamental human impulse toward relationship and community. /QUOTE]

The real question here is just what do you mean by ‘completely’. If it involves sexual intamacy it is morally wrong for an unmarried man and woman who are not married. The very nature of homosexuality represents a disorder - so there can never be a legitimate marriage, there can never be a legitimate sexual union. That is the illusion that some people want other to believe is real and obtainable.

So to recognize that we more fully become what we are meant to be in loving relationship with others, but to know or believe that the possibility of the most loving, the most complete partnership of which we are capable with another human being is fundamentally denied us feels very much like someone or something is saying, "It is right for you to want to be in relationship with a loving partner because that’s human nature and that’s good. Good job! /QUOTE]

You just can not hop into bed with people you like, love, have an interest in or any other configuration. The focus must be on God’s Divine Plan for all humanity. If you are saying that you can not love someone without sex, then I submit this is truly a distorted view that will not stand up to any serious examination. History is filled with examples of the decline of civilizations as their family unit (male+female+child) deteriorates.

At the same time, though, your desire for a loving partnership is completely wrong–consequently, it’s impossible for you to fully participate in the human adventure."

Not really. But, do not forget, much of reality is what we make out of it. If you build walls instead of bridges to the realistic solution to your situation, you will always be separated from the real solution.

Note that I have not dealt with, addressed, or alluded to same-sex sexual expression or activity in this post–some people, for whatever reason, may believe I have. I have not.)

In my opinion, given the totality of your post, this last statement really does not fit.

God bless

 

[catholicgamer]

The only reason why I’m writing this is because I’m sick and tired of being called ‘evil’ just because of my sexual orientation.

I strongly believe I’m a loving person. I love my life, my family and friends. ALL human beings are creatures of love, no matter what they are attracted to.

At the end of the day that’s all it is, a sexual orientation. Just because I’m gay doesnt mean I’m ‘evil’. I’m tired of the Catholic Church in particular persuading people that it’s wrong. It is not, nor has it ever been.

In reference to another thread about gay couples being allowed to adopt, to quote one of this websites answers “Adoption is for the benefit of the child involved”. Are you saying a child is better to be in a foster home rather than be adopted by a same-sex couple? I am telling you that any child would be lucky to have two dads or two mothers.

Homosexuality is not contagious, its not caused by mothers ‘loving’ their child that bit too much. I was born this way.

I always wonder why the Church continues this mentality, when thousands of people (teenagers in particular) are committing suicide because they can’t live with being gay because YOU are telling them they are evil?

I know the chances of a half decent rebuttal to this is slim, but I had to let you know my opinion.
-Johnny

Want to put my two sense into the OP on this topic…so here it goes.

First, as was already mentioned here, the Church does not call those with homosexual attraction “evil”…it calls the act of homosexuality disordered. It’s like any other disordered sexual relationship or action, e.g… father having sex with his daughter is disordered. Not equivocating the two relationships, but there are biological reasons why a father does not have sex with his daughter, just as there are biological reasons why a man should not have sex with another man (…I get into this later…). You are not evil for being a homosexual…end of story.

Second. Relationships are not just based on “love” nor is “love” a valid excuse to pursue sexual relations with anyone you want. Now, I’m going on the assumption that you are using the word “love” as in the feeling of love as this is the common tactic of the homosexuals and their supporters. It “feels” right, so therefore it must be so. Feelings are not indicators of whether something is right or wrong. Feelings only tell you how you’re interacting or reacting with certain events or stimuli. Feelings change all the time, and they in no way reflect reality. If all you can do is give an emotional case for homosexuality, then it should be a huge red flag for you.

Lastly…and please allow me to be a bit direct as I speak to just the male homosexual act. A man’s sexual organs are made for a women’s sexual organs. This is just a biological fact that cannot be denied. The sexual organs of a man are not made for the digestive system of a another man…this is also a biological fact as well as a metaphysical fact. No matter how much one cries “it’s all about love”, you cannot get around simple biological makeup and sexual purpose of a man, which is to impregnate a human female. Therefore, by definition, the homosexual act goes against the inherent biological makeup and purpose of a human being’s natural sexuality…period.

To date, I have yet to see an argument, beyond emotional pleading, that would convince me that homosexuality should be normalized. The practice of homosexuality doesn’t have a biological or metaphysical leg to stand on.

 

[Leegal]

Just to share a personal story about coming to terms with my sexuality. About this time last year, I went to mass every single day. Often after the service I would sit outside the church, look up and pray that one day I would wake up ‘straight’. I would have done anything to be “normal”.

I wanted to change because the Catholic Church said that if I was to ever fulfill my sexual destiny, it would be sinful.*

Over time it dawned on me that it wasn’t wrong. Coming out was definitely a difficult experience, as I’m the polar opposite to the homosexuals portrayed in the media, and it was a shock to everybody I told. Life has gotten better, so much better.

Homosexuality is not unnatural. SSA is found in all different species, but homophobia is only found in one. So tell me which is more ‘unnatural’?*I’m happy to say that we live in a society where the minority has changed to the their being more homosexuals than homophobes.

Even the Church recognizes that the etiology of sexual orientation is unknown.

But can you relate to the woman or man, who without partner, finds themselves growing older, and realizing that they are not called to the married life either (the way the Church defines the sacramental marriage) and realizes too that what they want – that one spouse and having children – are never going to happen. For them, they believe it was natural to marry and have a family and probably more do than don’t. I can imagine how unnatural it feels for them to realize, finally, that they will never meet that partner, that God has not chosen a married life for them, but a single and celibate one, and they must find other ways of serving God and finding that satisfactory and happy life, while living God’s law.

Last, I do not believe we are homophobic.

 

[Wanttobefree]

Hi again, I don’t know how to respond directly to people’s posts the way you guys were doing and I know the original poster had a different kind of question to my own but I will just respond with some of my own thoughts, in particular to people who have addressed my post directly.

Overall may I say that I don’t think for a minute that people on this thread hate people with SSA. A few people have been insensitive (Mr Sylvester) in their responses but overall I think people have been understanding/helpful in so far as they can be.

Here’s my beef though: why can’t most Catholics just acknowledge that being Catholic and having SSA is a huge ordeal and is a very unique cross to bear? So many posts have to compare this to other sufferings in an attempt to I guess make us feel like our suffering is not that big of a deal. Instead of saying “yes, you didn’t choose these feelings, you don’t want these feelings and your faith does not allow you to act on these feelings and this is a terrible burden and we’ll pray for you” most people say “well what about singles, or sick people with cancer, or paraplegics etc etc”. Their suffering is different and doesn’t make our suffering any less.

If I fell off a motorbike tomorrow and broke my neck and became a quadriplegic, I would have my family and friends, Church and community surround me and offer help and support me in any way they can. I would feel loved and cared for. Similarly if I had a terminal illness the reaction would be the same. If I suddenly told everyone that i had same sex attraction, I would be met with disgust, disappointment, confusion and alienation by some, others would be more understanding but would probably not want to be around me because suddenly I am “different”.

Someone mentioned “hopping into bed” with guys and another mentioned “idiots” during gay pride marches and stuff. This is not what I want. I am not arguing the Church’s position on homosexuality. Heck even if they changed the position I still don’t think I could live that lifestyle. I know it’s disordered. I think it’s silly to compare “gay pride” to heteros acting out in debauchery as a way of proclaiming their sexuality. Why would they need to do this, heterosexuality is accepted as the norm of society. That would be like someone protesting against recycling, everyone supports recycling, there’s no campaigns to end recycling.

I am not looking for the Church to legitimize homosexual behavior. I am 100% chaste and am not “lusting” after men the way one poster put it. All I want in the world is to be heterosexual. To fall in love with a woman and have a family. To do all the things a husband/father etc does towards the later years of life. I am an extroverted and social person, facing life alone just tears me apart.

Someone mentioned being honest with my doctor. I am a doctor. I recognize the symptoms of anxiety and depression and I am self medicating. I am not looking for pity and I am not whining. I just want people, particularly Catholics, to be mindful of the fact this is a unique struggle and acknowledgement more than arguing analogies etc is a more appropriate response, in my view.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Bri89,

I think you summed up your position quite well in your last sentence. The issue will always be the choice on which is more important: self-satisfaction or loving Christ by following His commands. Christ focuses directly on this issue in John 12:24-25

24 Amen, amen I say to you, unless the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, 25 Itself remaineth alone. But if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world, keepeth it unto life eternal.

Check this out in your own Bible and see how it is worded. It should be noted that Christ begins His statement with “Amen, amen…” which is His way of saying, “I’m serious”. So, if we determine we are going to live for self, not deny ourselves and ahdopt the culture of the society which is essentially characterized as hedonism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism.

So, it really comes down to free will - what do you choose? And, while considering that, even on the natural level, no one promised you living happily everafter and a happy ending to your life. We all face challenges and the best advice is to meet the ones you actually have based on principles that will go the distance. The 12th chapter of the Gospel of St. John is a good place to look on how Christ addressed His challenges.

God bless

This is purely hypothetical and I mean it respectfully, but if I was a young gay catholic male, celibacy would probably seem like not just a cross to bear, but a death sentence.I say this as a girl with a bisexual brain. If I could not shake off the conviction that homogenital acts were sinful, I would still cultivate erotic friendships with young males, and I would probably do it without realizing it. It seems inhuman to say that homosexual leaning people can never be contented. Even though I have strong Christian convictions, I couldn’t allow that to deny me love.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

Hi, Dakota:
I think you may have the Catholic church mixed up with the far-right fundamentalist Baptists and Evangelicals. I haven’t heard lately that the Catholic church takes a positive position on ‘reparative therapy’. Help me if I missed that. Anyone.

A number of Courage groups and other Catholics quite enthusiastically promote reparative therapy

Hi, Wantobefree,

I am really not sure just where to begin. While Dakota may sing the praises of an illusion - please note, just like the water illusion in the desert, every illusion misleads and ultimately destroys purposeful behavior leading to positive action. It ain’t real so recognize it for what it is.

No one sets out with an attitude to maintain loneliness and despair with the intensity you have identified. This condition will not last for one reason or another. And, the fault lies with the attitude! Yes, I know that this is probably not what you had in mind - but, really, with a negative attitude, what else can possibly be even seen by you except what you think you are missing. Change the way you look at things - anything - and you will change your own reality. Continue to feel sorry for yourself and you will essentially have the self-fulfilling prophecy.

I am a Registered Nurse and have worked with both cancer and hospice patients. There really are physically worse things than not being able to be with the people you want to be with. Many of the patients I have taken care of have reviewed their own physical situation and decided that they will make the most of the time they have left. Some have energy and some don’t - some have pain that is well managed and some don’t - all have a choice to be just as happy as they allow themselves to be.

There is no inspiration in hopping into bed with anyone you want. The Church condemns this behavior for EVERYONE! If you’re taking medications that means you are seeing a doctor. Please be honest with your physician so you can get the care you need.

Being honest with yourself does not mean you are to give into your every desire. If you can’t find a creative outlet for your creative spirit, I suggest you need to get with groups that can be supportive - and share ideas with you. None of us delt ourselves the cards we now hold - but, we are expected to play our best, for this is how we will be judged.

Don’t lose heart or your chastity. Praying to our Blessed Mother will do much to relieve anyone of Devil’s temptations.

God bless

I’m not actually singing the praises of an illusion, merely pointing out that heterosexuals who won’t marry have hope and homosexual persons don’t. Living out life without hope is brutal, at least your terminally ill patients have the comfort of dying in the near future.

 

[Wanttobefree]

Leegal, again I’m sorry but it’s not the same as a single hetero person living a single life. They may have had the opportunity to date, be in relationships, may have even experienced love. They never have to suppress their true feelings. They can enter religious life if they feel like they have a calling. They can get involved with Church activities and responsibilities (ample stories out there about homosexuals being removed from positions in the Church), even ones living celibate lives). They don’t have to feel awkward in conversations about gays and try and change the subject. They don’t have to fear people judging/alienating them if they find out… They don’t have to deal with rumors (sometimes). They can even adopt. They don’t have to wonder every day where their sexuality came from.

Sure they might have other struggles with the single life. But imagine those struggles plus all of the above and more. I cannot relate to the hetero single. The struggle is completely different.

Again, I am not looking for the Church to legitimize homosexual behavior. I am looking for Carholics to be more aware of the issues and, with respect, to stop “down playing them” (for want of a better word).

 

[TheRealJuliane]

Hey Johnny and everyone,

I too struggle with homosexuality/SSA. I agree with almost everything Kch has said. I am trying to live a chaste life with the hope of reaching Heaven and I know that I am loved for who I am and it’s my actions/choices that are displeasing to God.

I have had good experiences with understanding priests in confession when I confess sins relating to SSA. I am not out to anyone though either my family or my friends and I worry all the time about my future and how long I can keep this hidden.

One thing I will say about Johnny’s post however, is that although I haven’t been called “evil” etc, I sometimes feel that Catholic people just don’t understand the level of suffering people with SSA experience and can sometimes be dismissive of it. It has sometimes been compared to alcohol or drug addiction, hetero adultery etc as if having SSA fits with these other vices.

I have been thinking about homosexuality and the Church a lot lately and I think that it is wrong to compare SSA with these other afflictions. Being homosexual and Catholic is, I believe, one of the hardest and most depressing “crosses” in the world. The feeling of knowing that you can never feel proper love or never have a family and will live in a constant state of loneliness and despair for the rest of your life is quite overwhelming. I know there are many single people in the world but this is not the same. They always can live in hope. For us there is very little, or no hope. Trying to reconcile your faith with your sexual inclinations (that you really really feel you were sometimes born with) is so extremely difficult.

In my own situation, I know I have SSA and nobody else does. I know that if I were to come out I would lose my Catholic family (they just would not understand) and most of my Catholic friends (some would understand but would be wierded out) my relationships with my secular friends would change forever (they would be tolerant but I know that it would change the dynamics of our friendships irreversibly), I can’t marry a man and I can’t marry a woman, I do have some gay friends but I do not approve of their lifestyle so I am not very close to them and would not ever hang out with just them. That leaves you pretty much alone. And that is not good.

I strive to be a faithful Catholic. I really do. I don’t think the Church should change it’s teaching on homosexuality. But I do think more resources or support or general understanding of people in situations such as mine should be out there. Suicide was mentioned here already, I am testament to the fact that trying to reconcile your faith with SSA can sometimes be so unbelievably overwhelming that this seems like the only answer. I would hope people wouldn’t doubt that because I’ve lived it.

Thanks for listening.

May God give you strength. Your post really touched my heart. I am going to make it a point to pray for you and everyone who has SSA. It is a heavy cross to bear indeed. God bless you for staying chaste.

 

[Leegal]

Hi again, I don’t know how to respond directly to people’s posts the way you guys were doing and I know the original poster had a different kind of question to my own but I will just respond with some of my own thoughts, in particular to people who have addressed my post directly.

Here’s my beef though: why can’t most Catholics just acknowledge that being Catholic and having SSA is a huge ordeal and is a very unique cross to bear? So many posts have to compare this to other sufferings in an attempt to I guess make us feel like our suffering is not that big of a deal. Instead of saying “yes, you didn’t choose these feelings, you don’t want these feelings and your faith does not allow you to act on these feelings and this is a terrible burden and we’ll pray for you” most people say “well what about singles, or sick people with cancer, or paraplegics etc etc”. Their suffering is different and doesn’t make our suffering any less.

If I fell off a motorbike tomorrow and broke my neck and became a quadriplegic, I would have my family and friends, Church and community surround me and offer help and support me in any way they can. I would feel loved and cared for. Similarly if I had a terminal illness the reaction would be the same. If I suddenly told everyone that i had same sex attraction, I would be met with disgust, disappointment, confusion and alienation by some, others would be more understanding but would probably not want to be around me because suddenly I am “different”.

Let me say I am not homosexual so I agree that I do not know what it is like to be gay and Catholic. I imagine it is a huge ordeal.

I spoke with a friend who is now in her 60s. She is angry because she wanted marriage and children and does not believe it is God’s Will that she remained single and childless.

I’m in the same position, but was made infertile by a misdisagnosis at 24, as well. God’s Will? Maybe not the mess up created by terrible doctors at the time, but I never dwelled on it. At some point I realized I was not going to marry, probably that was God’s Will and I accepted it.

I’m sorry that you do not have the support of friends and family. Someone once told me here, on another topic having to do with dating, that since I live in NYC my contribution would be skewed by my location. Maybe in this case my opinion does not matter since I live in a city that is accepting of the single life and accepts homosexuals for a large part. I’m sure there are some that do not. I know my family would not reject a member who came out to us.

I’m also sorry, but I do see a correlation between someone who is seriously injured, dying and has to accept God’s Will. Or the woman who wanted a husband and family and is living a single and celibate life with no chance of marriage and children. In fact, the woman who wanted a husband and family is in no different position than you are because it will never happen for her now either and she remains celibate and has made a life for herself, not the one she wanted, but the best one she could make. We all have burdens to carry.

I do not know yours – but you must realize that we all struggle with something that we wish we could change and cannot. I don’t know why this happens, but I expect that when God reveals Himself the answers will be known.

God Bless.

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Dakota,

I could not disagree with you more.

Telling people they have no hope (for an impossible goal) and then telling them life without hope is brutal. No one determined the cards they were dealt at birth - the challenge before all of us is to play them as best we can.

Even on the natural level there are people who were born or developed truly profound physical limitations - yet managed to rise above them as they moved on in a positive direction with their life. Helen Keller comes to mind (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helen_Keller ) While it is true that Anne Sullivan got Helen started - Helen moved forward into other areas as an independent person. If I understand your post, you would have basically told Keller that she had no hope and life was brutal. And, that will end your contribution.

The terminally ill can get depressed - can die depressed - and this is a real concern. But, it does not have to be that way.

God bless

I’m not actually singing the praises of an illusion, merely pointing out that heterosexuals who won’t marry have hope and homosexual persons don’t. Living out life without hope is brutal, at least your terminally ill patients have the comfort of dying in the near future.

 

[Elizabeth502]

I’m sorry but it’s not the same as a single hetero person living a single life. They may have had the opportunity to date, be in relationships, may have even experienced love. They never have to suppress their true feelings.

Wrong.

Hundreds of thousands of heterosexuals – Catholics and non-Catholics by the way – have true feelings for only one person: the precise one person they will never be able to date (in some cases), to marry (in other cases), to have a sexual relationship with (in other cases). And those situations are as permanent as the situation for any practicing Catholic with SSA.

The only person you have ever fully loved, or love right now, may be married to someone else. For the person frustrated, that is not a matter of choice.

You may be a heterosexual Catholic priest who daily has to suppress his natural romantic inclinations toward the opposite sex. You can say he has chosen the priesthood, knowing full well what awaits him. (He has.) However, that does not mean that he does not permanently struggle with his feelings, having to suppress them routinely.

You may have ended a Catholic marriage through no fault of your own, because of a change or a situation in your mate (not you) which prevents the marriage from continuing without harm to both parties. Yet for technical reasons you may not have been granted an annulment, or you were not even the one who ended the marriage. Not your choice. You either (a) still have true feelings only for this mate, and no other; or (b) since separating from your mate you have developed true feelings only for one other person in the universe. Permanently, you cannot have a fulfilled relationship with that one person. Your feelings must forever by suppressed.

Those are all permanent situations, all requiring what Jesus asked us to do: Take up our individual daily crosses, and stop behaving like martyrs, as if our individual sufferings are unique or uniquely unbearable.

 

[Wanttobefree]

Elizabeth I don’t think anything I can say really will change your opinion.

All I can say is that I don’t agree with you. If I could change places with the single heterosexual person or the person who loves someone that they can’t have for whatever reason (other than their sexuality) I would do it in a heartbeat. Again, being single is not the only problem for Catholics with SSA, there are plenty of other issues that go along with it too unfortunately.

I guess we never know what another person’s life is like unless we’ve lived it.

 

[MrSylvester]

Hi again, I don’t know how to respond directly to people’s posts the way you guys were doing and I know the original poster had a different kind of question to my own but I will just respond with some of my own thoughts, in particular to people who have addressed my post directly.

Overall may I say that I don’t think for a minute that people on this thread hate people with SSA. A few people have been insensitive (Mr Sylvester) in their responses but overall I think people have been understanding/helpful in so far as they can be.

Here’s my beef though: why can’t most Catholics just acknowledge that being Catholic and having SSA is a huge ordeal and is a very unique cross to bear? So many posts have to compare this to other sufferings in an attempt to I guess make us feel like our suffering is not that big of a deal. Instead of saying “yes, you didn’t choose these feelings, you don’t want these feelings and your faith does not allow you to act on these feelings and this is a terrible burden and we’ll pray for you” most people say “well what about singles, or sick people with cancer, or paraplegics etc etc”. Their suffering is different and doesn’t make our suffering any less.

If I fell off a motorbike tomorrow and broke my neck and became a quadriplegic, I would have my family and friends, Church and community surround me and offer help and support me in any way they can. I would feel loved and cared for. Similarly if I had a terminal illness the reaction would be the same. If I suddenly told everyone that i had same sex attraction, I would be met with disgust, disappointment, confusion and alienation by some, others would be more understanding but would probably not want to be around me because suddenly I am “different”.

Someone mentioned “hopping into bed” with guys and another mentioned “idiots” during gay pride marches and stuff. This is not what I want. I am not arguing the Church’s position on homosexuality. Heck even if they changed the position I still don’t think I could live that lifestyle. I know it’s disordered. I think it’s silly to compare “gay pride” to heteros acting out in debauchery as a way of proclaiming their sexuality. Why would they need to do this, heterosexuality is accepted as the norm of society. That would be like someone protesting against recycling, everyone supports recycling, there’s no campaigns to end recycling.

I am not looking for the Church to legitimize homosexual behavior. I am 100% chaste and am not “lusting” after men the way one poster put it. All I want in the world is to be heterosexual. To fall in love with a woman and have a family. To do all the things a husband/father etc does towards the later years of life. I am an extroverted and social person, facing life alone just tears me apart.

Someone mentioned being honest with my doctor. I am a doctor. I recognize the symptoms of anxiety and depression and I am self medicating. I am not looking for pity and I am not whining. I just want people, particularly Catholics, to be mindful of the fact this is a unique struggle and acknowledgement more than arguing analogies etc is a more appropriate response, in my view.

The thing is, we know that having SSA is a hige ordeal and it is a cross to bear. But like all crosses, it can be carried if you set your mind to it. You must accept that you have same sex attraction but you mustn’t treat it as something abnormal. You must differentiate between lust and love. If someone is fantasizing sexually about the same sex, he msut control his lust by respecting the merits of that gender. If one simply loves a person because he amdires him as a friend, thats not so much as same sex attraction as it is normal love.

The thing is, the Church views same sex marriage as unnatural as everyone else views incest and polygamy and plyamory as unnatural. Its not discrimination agaisnt people with SSA as it is discrimination agaisnt an evil practice. Gay people aren’t evil because they’re gay, they’re only evil if they are Hitler . Likewise, being gay doesn’t make one a sinner nor does having attractions towards the same sex make one a sinner. Its when one fantasizes in a dirty way about the same or the other sex that is bad; its when one commits pre-marital sex that you become a sinner.

My argument is that even if you have SSA you’re still a normal person. Gay men don’t need to feel insecure about themselves by dressing in female clothes and pretending to be women, nor do lesbians need to feel insecure about themselves and dress up as men in order to force themselves to adopt a lesbian lifestyle. Since you don’t want that type of lifestyle, good. The same goes to those heterosexual people who choose to not be prostitutes, playboys, strip club attendants etc… so as to not dishonor themselves.

Its true a lot of Catholics don’t know how to react when someone tells them that they’re gay. If I were a Priest, I’d tell my parish that tohugh we cannot tolerate those gay people who are promiscuos with their filthy lifestyle, we should help those who are having difficulty being faithful Catholics. We should tell them to accept that they have same sex attraction and teach them what is moral and what is not. Even if a gay kid were to be promiscous, we shouldn’t disown him but show him the error of his ways; we’d do the same towards girls who are promiscous and yet you rarely hear of a christian father disowning one because of that. Gay children shouldn’t be disowned because they are gay. Well, unless they join a gang or are so insupportably obnoxious nobody, not even their friends can stand them. Thats OK then!

I’m sorry if my post sounds patronizing but thats just the way I speak, sorry.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Hi, tqualey. Maybe I can clarify some things…

Your initial paragraph identifies that you are talking about homosexuals (emphasis above is mine), yet everything here can quite accurately address all humans.

Indeed!

Having loving relationships is really what God intended for us …].

Absolutely agreed!

But since you have addressed this to homosexuals I am confused.

It was not addressed to homosexuals per se–the important words in that sentence in which you bolded the word “homosexual” were actually “Roman Catholic.” The point I was making is that a faithful Roman Catholic homosexual is conscious of these realities regarding human relationship by virtue (in part, at least–but it’s a big part) of their Roman Catholicism.

Your initial paragraph identifies that
Deo Volente;9169681:

Being in relationship is fundamental to human nature. And desiring a partner with whom one can completely share one’s life is a desire which is part of that fundamental human impulse toward relationship and community.

The real question here is just what do you mean by ‘completely’. …]

“Completely” need not involve sexual intimacy. But it necessarily involves a spiritual intimacy or kinship of the sort that people usually experience in loving, committed relationships.

You just can not hop into bed with people you like, love, have an interest in or any other configuration.

Agreed!

If you are saying that you can not love someone without sex, then I submit this is truly a distorted view that will not stand up to any serious examination.

I’m not saying that in the least.

Let’s consider a man and a woman who are attracted to each other, who love each other very deeply. They’re out on a date. They’re clearly head over heels for each other. Most people on these forums would think, “oh, how nice. They’re in love and they’re dating.”

Consider two men who are attracted to each other, who love each other very deeply. They’re out on a date. They’re clearly head over heels for each other. It seems that the response from folks on these forums would generally be, “they’re indulging their lustful and disordered appetites!”

It seems to me that it has become impossible for us to discuss homosexuality without the assumption that homosexuals are addicted to lust. And this is precisely where that double bind, that “both yes and no” begins to rear it’s head. It’s not wrong to be attracted to members of the same sex, but it apparently is wrong to see in that attraction a good desire for a good human partnership with someone one loves. But that is precisely what the attraction qua attraction is. Should it not be the case that just as heterosexuals can be attracted to each other and not be lust-addled sybarites, homosexuals can be attracted to each other and not be lust-addled sybarites? After all, heterosexuals can desire inappropriately, too, but a heterosexual’s attempts to form a (chaste) partnership with the one they love are not so soundly decried as a homosexual’s attempts at the same.

So what’s the lesson learned? The double bind: “As a human being, you are designed to be in and desire relationship, the most fulfilling of which being that in which two people who love each other share their lives together. It is good to desire such a relationship which is other-oriented and characterized in no small part by self-sacrifice. All of that is good! As a homosexual, though, it’s wrong for you to desire this sort of fulfillment, even though you rightly recognize that desire as a good.”

In my opinion, given the totality of your post, this last statement really does not fit.

tqualey, it makes more sense if we stop making the erroneous assumption (which you may or may not be making, I don’t know) that homosexuality necessarily equals lust.

A homosexual is a homosexual because he or she recognizes in themselves same-sex attraction. He or she may or may not act on such an attraction. But a homosexual is nonetheless conscious of this attraction and is conscious, too, that this attraction is a real and integral part of how they experience and desire the goods of companionship and a fulfilling partnership (see what I wrote earlier in this post). A homosexual is not a homosexual because they lust in a particular way or engage in one sexual act or another.

I hope that was helpful, tqualey.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

The Lord is risen indeed! Alleluia!

 

[bri89]

Hi, Bri89,

I think you summed up your position quite well in your last sentence. The issue will always be the choice on which is more important: self-satisfaction or loving Christ by following His commands. Christ focuses directly on this issue in John 12:24-25

24 Amen, amen I say to you, unless the grain of wheat falling into the ground die, 25 Itself remaineth alone. But if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world, keepeth it unto life eternal.

Check this out in your own Bible and see how it is worded. It should be noted that Christ begins His statement with “Amen, amen…” which is His way of saying, “I’m serious”. So, if we determine we are going to live for self, not deny ourselves and ahdopt the culture of the society which is essentially characterized as hedonism en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonism.

So, it really comes down to free will - what do you choose? And, while considering that, even on the natural level, no one promised you living happily everafter and a happy ending to your life. We all face challenges and the best advice is to meet the ones you actually have based on principles that will go the distance. The 12th chapter of the Gospel of St. John is a good place to look on how Christ addressed His challenges.

God bless

It’s not simply that I would be unwilling, I am also unconvinced it’s wrong. I’ve heard many arguments where the person takes the norm and turns it into an absolute, but sex is not absolute; we need only look to the writings of antiquity to verify that. Before the church absolutized a kind of binary sexuality, there was more of a pluralistic understanding. Like today, they acknowledged homosexuality without understanding it. I would like to read someone’s comments on the Epic of Gilgamesh, or the homoromantic (not homosexual) relationships of David and Jonathan and Ruth and Naomi.

Also, using the Bible to create a definitive code of sexual ethics is almost impossible. The old testament is rife with polygamy and concubinage. The new appears to exalt celibacy and asceticism even above marriage. St. Paul says “better to marry that to burn”, which is hardly an endorsement for the sanctity of marriage; he thought is was unfortunate that not everyone could be like him. We can’t speak about these matters as if everything has been worked out already.

 

[MrSylvester]

It’s not simply that I would be unwilling, I am also unconvinced it’s wrong. I’ve heard many arguments where the person takes the norm and turns it into an absolute, but sex is not absolute; we need only look to the writings of antiquity to verify that. Before the church absolutized a kind of binary sexuality, there was more of a pluralistic understanding. Like today, they acknowledged homosexuality without understanding it. I would like to read someone’s comments on the Epic of Gilgamesh, or the homoromantic (not homosexual) relationships of David and Jonathan and Ruth and Naomi.

Also, using the Bible to create a definitive code of sexual ethics is almost impossible. The old testament is rife with polygamy and concubinage. The new appears to exalt celibacy and asceticism even above marriage. St. Paul says “better to marry that to burn”, which is hardly an endorsement for the sanctity of marriage; he thought is was unfortunate that not everyone could be like him. We can’t speak about these matters as if everything has been worked out already.

And to this whole post, I have to facepalm, I’m sorry.

http://cdimg3.crunchyroll.com/i/spire2/03312008/0/d/6/b/0d6b8a38599b10_full.jpg

David and Jonathan homosexual? False. Just see this apge to see how utterly ridiculous this assertion is: gotquestions.org/David-and-Jonathan.html True the website isn’t Catholic but it gives a very orthodox and catholic answer to this assertion.

Also, if Ruth and Naomi were lesbians, then their relationship must have been very, very, very awkward because Naomi was Ruths mother-in-law. Gosh, what a thing to say. Naomi and Ruth’s story was nothing but a story of loyalty and friendship, not an incestous lesbian coming out story. Don’t be ridiculous.

Also, God in the Old testament did allow polygamy… for the Patriarchs like David, Abraham, Solomon and Jacob. Others like Isaac despite being able to be polygamous were not and clung to a single wife (in this case, Rebecca). But why did God allow ploygamy in the case of the patriarchs in the old testament? He allowed it so that the Jewish race could grow and expand and that there’d be more people around. But instead of the Jewish race being spread by rape ala Ghenghis Khan (whom 8% of the men in Asia and 0.5% of the world’s entire population claim descent from him: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_from_Genghis_Khan#DNA_evidence_-_The_Ian_Ashworth_Effect), the jewish race spread in a more civilized way. It was a necessary evil. Surely, 700 wives would have made many children and those children surely would have made many houses.

Also, you take Pauls quote WAY out of context. He said that its better to marry than to burn with passion, as in better to marry to suffer depression over not being able to marry. *But if they do not contain themselves, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to be burnt. *