Homosexuality as sexist

[followingtheway]

examiner.com/celebrity-headlines-in-boston/cynthia-nixon-faces-backlash-after-saying-she-is-gay-by-choice

But “she’s bisexual by birth”

latimesblogs.latimes.com/gossip/2012/01/cynthia-nixon-bald-by-choice-gay-by-choice.html

 

[Imperial_Guard]

I don’t think homosexuality is some patriarchal reaction to feminism. I think men are far far far more likely to give up on having a family in the face of women who can easily divorce them, take their children, and take their pay check. The book “Garbage Generation” has some interesting insights into the issue of feminism and how it has affected society. The parts I have read at least.

 

[62Joy]

exnihilo;9169587 SW85[[/-:

I’m not really sure why a homosexual would feel discriminated against or have fear in this day and age. Homosexuals can ‘marry’ and adopt in many states. It is illegal to discriminate against them in many places. They are featured in a positive light on TV and in schools. The high suicide rate might be better explained as an indication of deep problems related to their homosexuality. In fact this would be an argument that homosexuality is wrong if it were not assumed to be right by most people these days. Has the suicide rate decreased as homosexuality has become accepted and commonplace? If the person they were born to be is immoral they should be ashamed. Basic Christian theology says we are born with a sin nature. No one should be proud of that nature. Only if homosexuality is not immoral should a homosexual not be ashamed.[END OF QUOTE]

It is very easy to understand why the suicide rate is substantially higher, especially in gay men. Men are much more likely than women to actually carry through with a suicide, probably because women are more likely to get help and also because they generally use less lethal means. All you have to do is look at the far right and the “Evangelical” thinking that gays somehow made a decision to be gay and can thus turn away from what they consider “sin”. My answer is to tell any heterosexual male - “OK, starting tomorrow you are to become gay”. “Lets see if you can make a conscience decision and become gay”. They will all be shocked and will say, “Of course I can’t and they are repulsed by the very thought”. .

That far right Baptist Church marching at the funeral of a gay soldier, shows you the hatred out there by many. The Catholic Church is not a welcoming place for gays either. I know we say we love the sinner - just not the sin. But the message is clear, "You are not normal. You should never expect to have a normal life with a healthy relationship with another person. That is why these people are suicidal. I spoke to a gay man years ago who was suicidal and he said something I will never forget. “If I had a conscience choice to choose my sexual preference - why for the love of god, would I ever choose this? Why would I choose to be out of sink with the rest of the world? Everyone wants to fit in”. ( If you are interested in the suicide rates and percentages- go to Wikepidia and look up “Suicide in LGBT Youth”.).

I personally think it is a disgrace that gay civil marriage is even an issue. If churches don’t want to marry a gay couple - fine - don’t. That is your right. I will be married 50 years in September and no matter how I try - I can’t see how two people loving each other of any gender, in a committed marriage - can effect my marriage or the marriages of any of my children. Yet, that is the argument I hear often. Gay marriage will somehow effect regular marriages - make them mean less. I firmly believe we are more threatened by the number of people who live together without marriage. The fact that the gay community is fighting to be married says they have more respect for it than many who are living together without marriage.

 

[meltzerboy]

I suggest that the recent rise of homosexuality is a reaction made by a patriarchical culture to the movement to give women equal rights. Homosexuals are trying to derive women even of the status in human relationships.

A homosexual is effectively saying “I can go ahead and have a sexual relationship without including women, without having the consent of a woman.” Homosexuality seems to be all about reducing the power and status of women- of making them unnecessary. I think, in spirit and effect, it is almost akin to rape.

Does anyone else see it this way?

Do you believe it is a conscious, deliberate choice on the part of (male) homosexuals to deny women equal rights by excluding their consent for a sexual relationship, or might this be on an unconscious level? Also, is the motivating factor anger toward women, as you seem to be saying, or fear of them? It sounds interesting as an academic discussion in the social science domain. Practically speaking, as well as biologically, I don’t agree with it, however. And, on a humorous note, if your hypothesis is correct, would this mean there are probably more conservative GOP homosexuals?

 

[ssa_fellow]

Okay this is silly. Nowhere is this in the Church’s catechism which I’m pretty sure says something about unneeded discrimination. Nowhere do they say anything about this topic.

I like how people on CAF love to gossip about how dirty, nasty, and evil homosexuals are.
Of course then everyone’s going to gain up on me for defending them and say that none of this happens on CAF!

If you’d like I’d be glad to post links from the archives to prove my point!

YOU’RE NOT DEFENDING HOMOSEXUALS!!! I’M DEFENDING HOMOSEXUALS!!!

Me and every other person with SSA who is upholding Church teaching in THEIR LIVES and on THESE FORUMS!!!

Are you defending homosexuals from sin? Because I am. I encourage every Catholic to fearlessly uphold the truths of the faith in this matter. They are true, and they’re not going to change just because the world calls good evil and evil good. Just because the world loves sin doesn’t mean the Church is ever gonna fall for that.

Every person with SSA is called to take up his cross daily. That is from the lips of Jesus from the sermon of the Mount! I dare anyone who wants to defend “homosexuals” who are engaged in wanton depravity to find some scripture backing up their views. Because Jesus Christ told us to bear our crosses, and St. Paul said celibacy was the way to go for some people. And among those some people should be all homosexuals/ people with SSA.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I suggest that the recent rise of homosexuality is a reaction made by a patriarchical culture to the movement to give women equal rights. Homosexuals are trying to derive women even of the status in human relationships.

A homosexual is effectively saying “I can go ahead and have a sexual relationship without including women, without having the consent of a woman.” Homosexuality seems to be all about reducing the power and status of women- of making them unnecessary. I think, in spirit and effect, it is almost akin to rape.

Does anyone else see it this way?

No.
Moreover your theory doesn’t account for female homosexuals (i.e. lesbians).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

But aren’t a lot of lesbians anti-men??? Doesn’t that actually prove my point.

Gay men are sexist against women.
Gay women are sexist against men.

Both are contrary to God, and proper gender relations- “male and female he created them”

Now your changing your theory.

 

[sw85]

Do you have evidence for this? Identical twins have the same genes. The identical twins studies show only a 20% incidence of both twins being homosexual. If the condition was genetic, then it should be 100%.

See my longer post, #34, for a fuller treatment of the literature on the topic. Again, it’s nonspecific because I’m recalling studies I read years ago as I was preparing for grad school. Genetics seem to be an influence, as do abnormalities in the prenatal milieu. I have not ready any studies to the effect that family environment influences this development but I am confident that it plays a role, as well.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Yeah, of course, by homsexuality I mean homesexuals acts. I mean you don’t call a person a paedophile unless they actually do something dodgy. So I wouldn’t call someone a homosexual unless they actually did something about it.

If someone is that way inclined, as long as the don’t act on it and don’t disclose it, then, as far as I am concerned, they may have the benefit of the doubt and are not homoesexual. **And, if they do this, the inclination will proabably eventually go away./**QUOTE]

Why would you think that?
Normal (i.e. straight) desire doesn’t work like that.

 

[AngryAtheist8]

No, and trying to understand things using leftist paradigms is dangerous because they’re pretty much always false.
I don’t even really like these philosophical attempts to explain homosexuality (e.g., homosexuality as narcissisim). The evidence suggests it’s a relatively harmless genetic mutation aggravated by certain conditions in the prenatal milieu and encouraged by difficult family conditions and a wildly approving culture.

LOL

My political opponents are ALWAYS wrong

No false humility here:thumbsup:

 

[Gaber]

I suggest that the recent rise of homosexuality is a reaction made by a patriarchical culture to the movement to give women equal rights. Homosexuals are trying to derive women even of the status in human relationships.

A homosexual is effectively saying “I can go ahead and have a sexual relationship without including women, without having the consent of a woman.” Homosexuality seems to be all about reducing the power and status of women- of making them unnecessary. I think, in spirit and effect, it is almost akin to rape.

Does anyone else see it this way?

Absolutely not, because then the equal and converse argument would have to be made about lesbians. God made us all, and we, in our vast immaturity, choose to be xenophobic about what we don’t like, don’t undrstand, or haven’t grown up enough to have a clear understanding of, even if we are old and high up in any or some religious organization. And because of that, those folks will bring anything to bear to make themselves comfortable appearing to removing the need to think by externalizing a dynamic and invoking their deity as being on “their side.” And of course this form of fear and loathing is not restricted to homosexuality. Not by any means. Grow up!!!

 

[AngryAtheist8]

Hi sw85, I also think that homosexuality has more than one factor accounting for it. In another thread, I mentioned (and took some heat for it) that out of the admittedly small sample of homosexual males I’ve encountered or heard about in my life, it struck me that in a vast majority they had either a very strained or nonexistent relationship with their father . Not a well-established scientifc fact nor a decisive factor (perhaps a contributing factor) but merely a personal observation. But what startled me in your post is what you said about the evidence suggesting it’s a genetic mutation. I know many people among homosexuals are looking high and low for a scientic basis to legitimize their sexual orientation and if there was a well-conducted study/research showing a genetic origin to homosexuality, we’d know about it within seconds of it being published. So I was wondering if you could provide some kind of source(s) for this (again, personally I don’t rule out the genetic component). Thank you.

If we want to have a serious conversation about sexism in relation to homosexuality:
Then why is there so much more focus and hostility towards male gays (compared to lesbians)?

 

[Gaber]

There is no “rise” in homosexuality. There has always been a percentage of people who were born homosexual and that percentage has always been around the same. The rise is in awareness and, hopefully, less judgement on these people. My work in crisis intervention made me realize how discrimination and fear influenced the lives of people who are homosexual. The suicide rate, for example, is much higher than in the normal population. Why should anyone be ashamed to be the person they were born to be? The position of the church on the subject really needs to be looked at and re-evaluated. I have a real hard time, for example, with the Church’s position on gay couples adopting.

In my work I have known several gay couples who adopted with great success. Including two gay men who adopted a 10 year old boy, raised him and sent him through college. This boys parents were abusive and the boy was already in trouble with the law at ten. Those men saved that boy. The boy is now through college and is engaged to be married. As someone who was raised in foster care, I would have loved to have been adopted by any loving parents, gay or straight.

Excellent!!! Sanity has a voice!

 

[AngryAtheist8]

I agree there is a rise in awareness, but also, importantly, acceptance. I’m not sure that the percentage of homosexuals has always been the same. We really dont know that. We’d have to have surveys going back centuries and we dont. And even at that a survey is not the same as actually knowing who engages in homosexual sex or has those attractions because people lie.

I’m not really sure why a homosexual would feel discriminated against or have fear in this day and age. Homosexuals can ‘marry’ and adopt in many states. It is illegal to discriminate against them in many places. They are featured in a positive light on TV and in schools. The high suicide rate might be better explained as an indication of deep problems related to their homosexuality. In fact this would be an argument that homosexuality is wrong if it were not assumed to be right by most people these days. Has the suicide rate decreased as homosexuality has become accepted and commonplace?

If the person they were born to be is immoral they should be ashamed. Basic Christian theology says we are born with a sin nature. No one should be proud of that nature. Only if homosexuality is not immoral should a homosexual not be ashamed.

Then everybody should be ashamed (regardless of how they act).

 

[AngryAtheist8]

You’re very welcome, and that’s a good point – the fact that something is naturally occurring (“normal”) doesn’t mean it’s good (“normative”). Natural law relates to the latter, not the former.

All the more reason not to take Natural Law seriously.

 

[raaucoin]

I’m a lesbian because I hate men? Wait til I explain that to my brother I adore; the man who took responsibility for being a dad to me when it wasn’t his responsibility to do so; my nephews who I would walk through hell and back for; my friend’s husband who is family to me; my Pastor and Bishop I admire greatly, My Lord Jesus Both God and A MAN and His Father that I worship and have an intimate relationship with.

Here it is one more time: we still don’t know why some of us have SSA. Those of us who do are called to be- as everyone else- members of the family of God. We are to accept that ANY sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong and we are en-couraged by our Church and our Sacramental life to live chaste-that is, to live with our sexuality according to our station in life. We are not married(most of us) so we remain celibate(unmarried).

For many of us (not all of us) our Cross that we bare is not in the fact that we are not sexually active, that’s the easy part. The Cross we bare is in accepting that the dreams many of us have about finding that one special person to “become one with” will never be realized or if we find that person we’d like to share that with, it can never happen. AND We are also called not only to bare our Cross, but to remember we are a people also of the Ressurection- that awesome and transforming event that takes all of the hardships, disappointments, and deaths in this life and makes them a doorway to something amazing. We carry our cross, die to ourselves on that cross so that we may rise with Him in glory.

 

[meltzerboy]

I’m a lesbian because I hate men? Wait til I explain that to my brother I adore; the man who took responsibility for being a dad to me when it wasn’t his responsibility to do so; my nephews who I would walk through hell and back for; my friend’s husband who is family to me; my Pastor and Bishop I admire greatly, My Lord Jesus Both God and A MAN and His Father that I worship and have an intimate relationship with.

Here it is one more time: we still don’t know why some of us have SSA. Those of us who do are called to be- as everyone else- members of the family of God. We are to accept that ANY sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong and we are en-couraged by our Church and our Sacramental life to live chaste-that is, to live with our sexuality according to our station in life. We are not married(most of us) so we remain celibate(unmarried).

For many of us (not all of us) our Cross that we bare is not in the fact that we are not sexually active, that’s the easy part. The Cross we bare is in accepting that the dreams many of us have about finding that one special person to “become one with” will never be realized or if we find that person we’d like to share that with, it can never happen. AND We are also called not only to bare our Cross, but to remember we are a people also of the Ressurection- that awesome and transforming event that takes all of the hardships, disappointments, and deaths in this life and makes them a doorway to something amazing. We carry our cross, die to ourselves on that cross so that we may rise with Him in glory.

Well stated. I am shocked you don’t buy into the myth that lesbians BOTH hate men and want to be like men!

 

[raaucoin]

Well stated. I am shocked you don’t buy into the myth that lesbians BOTH hate men and want to be like men!

 

[exnihilo]

My answer is to tell any heterosexual male - “OK, starting tomorrow you are to become gay”. “Lets see if you can make a conscience decision and become gay”. They will all be shocked and will say, “Of course I can’t and they are repulsed by the very thought”. .

They may be repulsed by it but based on what happens in prisons and also other situations where men are deprived of women many do engage in homosexual sex who do not consider themselves gay. Also there are bisexuals. So the issue does not seem so cut and dry to me. That people are repulsed by homosexual behavior does not necessarily mean they will not engage in it.

I spoke to a gay man years ago who was suicidal and he said something I will never forget. “If I had a conscience choice to choose my sexual preference - why for the love of god, would I ever choose this? Why would I choose to be out of sink with the rest of the world? Everyone wants to fit in”.

There are people who choose just to be different from everyone else. I agree it seems odd that people would chose to be gay, but I’m sure some do, and there is evidence to support this idea. But even if sexual attraction is not by choice that does not make a particular sexual behavior acceptable.

I can’t see how two people loving each other of any gender, in a committed marriage - can effect my marriage or the marriages of any of my children. Yet, that is the argument I hear often. Gay marriage will somehow effect regular marriages - make them mean less. I firmly believe we are more threatened by the number of people who live together without marriage. The fact that the gay community is fighting to be married says they have more respect for it than many who are living together without marriage.

A bit off topic but gay marriage would destroy the very definition of marriage and that is how it effects your marriage and everyone’s. Fighting to be married is mostly a part of demanding to be accepted by society by defining the behavior as normal. Marriage is an institution for creating and raising children something self proclaimed gays can not do if they follow the nature they claim to be powerless to stop.

 

[Gaber]

…

Ex, you need to get educated and grow up. The usual way of marriage, for instance, has as its very common advertisement actions that are reprehensible and even criminal. The institution itself has desecrated its own ideal “definition.” Or perhaps you don’t get news? I don’t know; it is troubleing to me that such ideas as yours are taken by so many as having anything to do with reality. And I know this is ad hominem. But maybe in this stream of misconstuing love and reality, it is merited to say something.