Homosexuality...but they love each other!

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Here, fellow participants, is one of dozens of posts by this poster, in which he challenges the fundamental philosophical and moral view of the Roman Church:

…]

See Mark’s theories also on these threads, challenging Catholic views on sexual complementariness, challenging Catholic views on marriage, etc:

Elizabeth, I think you’ve gone a bit far, here. I could mount a defense of the quoted post and a general response to the rest, but to do so would be to further realize that this is, indeed, some sort of Inquisition–that you’re putting me on trial through the conceit of putting my “theories” on trial. You have even appealed to a jury and submitted evidence as part of your indictment. Your behavior here is, in my experience, unprecedented in these fora. That is actually concerning to me.

I will not plead guilty to your charges, Elizabeth, but I will no longer mount a defense against them. You may do or continue as you like, but I think that continuing our interaction here would be unhealthy on a number of levels, and, for my part, I will no longer engage you in any sort of dialogue.

I mean this, Elizabeth: be well.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[Charlemagne_II]

John,

I think you have made the best possible case that it is not Catholicism that is to be feared, but the secular state.

Everyone knows we live in a post-Christian era, yet the secularists know it best of all, live with the guilt of it, and fear to be found out and routed sooner or later. So there must be an enemy, and the best of enemies is the most formidable of them all … the Catholic Church.

Secularists would like to think the Church is hopelessly impotent, but they know the Church routed the Roman degenerates of old, and so are capable of routing their modern counterparts. A cause celebre of destruction would be most reassuring. But alas, the secularists never learn, though they are taught the lesson a hundred times, that when they try to destroy the Church, she only rises up again stronger than before.

The Founders wisely built into the Constitution a clause protecting religion. Mind you, not protecting irreligion, not atheism, but religion. So atheism becomes a religion too, thinking it will be protected. But that doesn’t work, does it?

The First Amendment is one hard nut to crack, and the atheists have yet to find a way to crack it.

 

[Hadrianus]

I am the first to admit that I have not followed all of these posts, and I do not wish to enter into the minutiae of arguments. That said, as someone trained in theology and canon law, I would wish to make it clear that the Roman Catholic Church teaches definitively that sexual acts which are intrinsically contrary to the possibility of procreation are gravely immoral. This intrinsicality means that the act in itself could never under any circumstances lead to procreation, and therefore is contrary to the Divine Will…

This is as far as Catholic moral theology goes. The Church has no opinion upon affective relationships or sexual orientation. Anyone who suggests otherwise is simply expressing a personal opinion. What the Church does teach is that we are all called to sanctity, and to achieve this we must “seek those things which are above” and not desire the creature more than the Creator. English in common with Latin does not possess the richness and complexity of the Greek vocabulary. The Latin “amor” like the English “love” encompasses a range of emotions. The early Christians when writing in Latin tended to use the Latin “caritas” which seems generally to correspond to the Greek “agape”; a term which implies a kind of gratuitous or non self seeking love. This being the highest level of love, and the love which God has for His creatures. The Greek “eros” is also rather complicated in that it clearly expresses desire; but this desire need not necessarily be viewed in purely carnal terms. In this sense the writings of St John of the Cross and the mystical experience of St Teresa make sense in that they express in human language the desire for God; a longing for divine union.

This is precisely why the Church holds to such a high sexual ethic because the sexual encounter of human beings, if not properly integrated into the right reason of creation, creates a counterfeit of the true Union which is that of the soul and God.

 

[BillP]

Bill

You misunderstand me. I have no problem with Catholics telling other people how they should behave. I do object to Catholics trying to use the US Government to force those people to behave in ways consistent with Catholic morality.

Please specify where this has happened.

• The Defense of Marriage Act
• Any number of State “personhood” acts attempting to legislate and thus force compliance with the Catholic idea that “life begins at conception”
• Rick Santorum has openly stated that states should be allowed to outlaw all forms of contraception.

This is just few.

 

[Elizabeth502]

This intrinsicality means that the act in itself could never under any circumstances lead to procreation, and therefore is contrary to the Divine Will…
…This is as far as Catholic moral theology goes. The Church has no opinion upon affective relationships or sexual orientation.

But it is not as far as classic Catholic spirituality goes. And Catholic spirituality says more than just this:

What the Church does teach is that we are all called to sanctity, and to achieve this we must “seek those things which are above” and not desire the creature more than the Creator.

This is precisely why the Church holds to such a high sexual ethic because the sexual encounter of human beings, if not properly integrated into the right reason of creation, creates a counterfeit of the true Union which is that of the soul and God.

The corpus of Catholic tradition includes the entirety of:
~the spirituality embedded in scripture itself, which would include the ill effects of attachments which lead away from God and toward sin. Such spirituality is sprinkled liberally throughout Hebrew and Christian Scripture and includes explicit practical counsel;
~the Patristics
~the writings of the Saints from early through modern Christianity
~etc.

Individually and comprehensively these sources provide concrete roadmaps in order to reach that sanctity, and all of the holy followers who preceded us understood how disciplined and deliberate one must be in the struggle away from evil and toward the good.

It is not a matter of merely, find your own road to sanctity and Seek the Things Above. Combined experience (as well as the revelations in Chritian mystical literature) provide insight into the universal dynamics in that struggle, for all pilgrims. It includes daily, radical conversion. Each one of us here is called to daily conversion, which encompasses examining all the ways in which we rationalize that what “feels” good must be Good.

Catholic spirituality is developed and complex, and includes specific principles which are applicable across the board to everyone.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Bill

**The Defense of Marriage Act

• Any number of State “personhood” acts attempting to legislate and thus force compliance with the Catholic idea that “life begins at conception”
• Rick Santorum has openly stated that states should be allowed to outlaw all forms of contraception.**

This really is a no-brainer. The U.S. Congress is not the Catholic Church. It was Congress, not the Catholic Church, that passed the Defense of Marriage Act.

It is not just a Catholic idea that life begins at conception. Even the medical community allows that it does.

What Santorum argues for is that the states, not the Church or the Federal government, should decide the matter of contraception.

And why are you arguing that the Church is forcing anything on anybody? I have called you on this before, and you still cannot show that the Church is able to use force, as opposed to persuasion, in any of these matters.

 

[mitex]

Bill

**The Defense of Marriage Act

• Any number of State “personhood” acts attempting to legislate and thus force compliance with the Catholic idea that “life begins at conception”
• Rick Santorum has openly stated that states should be allowed to outlaw all forms of contraception.**

This really is a no-brainer. The U.S. Congress is not the Catholic Church. It was Congress, not the Catholic Church, that passed the Defense of Marriage Act.

It is not just a Catholic idea that life begins at conception. Even the medical community allows that it does.

What Santorum argues for is that the states, not the Church or the Federal government, should decide the matter of contraception.

And why are you arguing that the Church is forcing anything on anybody? I have called you on this before, and you still cannot show that the Church is able to use force, as opposed to persuasion, in any of these matters.

What does abortion have to do with homosexuality?

 

[Charlemagne_II]

mitex
**
What does abortion have to do with homosexuality?**

If by homosexuals you mean sodomites, I guess you could say both are opposed to natural law. The Catholic Church has as much right to be heard (1st Amendment right of free speech … remember?) as anyone else on any matter that concerns the public good.

It’s the atheists who want to be heard, but want religious thought (Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, etc.) to be suppressed insofar as possible.

Are you an atheist or a Catholic? Make up your mind.

 

[Dakota_Roberts]

But it is not as far as classic Catholic spirituality goes. And Catholic spirituality says more than just this:

The corpus of Catholic tradition includes the entirety of:
~the spirituality embedded in scripture itself, which would include the ill effects of attachments which lead away from God and toward sin. Such spirituality is sprinkled liberally throughout Hebrew and Christian Scripture and includes explicit practical counsel;
~the Patristics
~the writings of the Saints from early through modern Christianity
~etc.

Individually and comprehensively these sources provide concrete roadmaps in order to reach that sanctity, and all of the holy followers who preceded us understood how disciplined and deliberate one must be in the struggle away from evil and toward the good.

It is not a matter of merely, find your own road to sanctity and Seek the Things Above. Combined experience (as well as the revelations in Chritian mystical literature) provide insight into the universal dynamics in that struggle, for all pilgrims. It includes daily, radical conversion. Each one of us here is called to daily conversion, which encompasses examining all the ways in which we rationalize that what “feels” good must be Good.

Catholic spirituality is developed and complex, and includes specific principles which are applicable across the board to everyone.

This is going to get interesting

 

[mitex]

mitex
**
What does abortion have to do with homosexuality?**

If by homosexuals you mean sodomites, I guess you could say both are opposed to natural law. The Catholic Church has as much right to be heard (1st Amendment right of free speech … remember?) as anyone else on any matter that concerns the public good.

It’s the atheists who want to be heard, but want religious thought (Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Muslim, etc.) to be suppressed insofar as possible.

Are you an atheist or a Catholic? Make up your mind.

How I am I atheist lol? Did I ever deny the basic teachings of the Church lol?

 

[Hadrianus]

But it is not as far as classic Catholic spirituality goes. And Catholic spirituality says more than just this:

The corpus of Catholic tradition includes the entirety of:
~the spirituality embedded in scripture itself, which would include the ill effects of attachments which lead away from God and toward sin. Such spirituality is sprinkled liberally throughout Hebrew and Christian Scripture and includes explicit practical counsel;
~the Patristics
~the writings of the Saints from early through modern Christianity
~etc.

Individually and comprehensively these sources provide concrete roadmaps in order to reach that sanctity, and all of the holy followers who preceded us understood how disciplined and deliberate one must be in the struggle away from evil and toward the good.

It is not a matter of merely, find your own road to sanctity and Seek the Things Above. Combined experience (as well as the revelations in Chritian mystical literature) provide insight into the universal dynamics in that struggle, for all pilgrims. It includes daily, radical conversion. Each one of us here is called to daily conversion, which encompasses examining all the ways in which we rationalize that what “feels” good must be Good.

Catholic spirituality is developed and complex, and includes specific principles which are applicable across the board to everyone.

Elizabeth,
Of course, I agree with you. I didn’t mean to suggest that occasions of sin be ignored or that for anyone the mere adherence to external law without any desire for spiritual advancement is an acceptable course. Different people are tempted by sin in different ways. Clearly a homosexual man who frequents gay bars, watches pornography etc, is putting himself into serious occasions of sin, and mutatis mutandis, the same can be said of a heterosexual.
my goal was only to attempt to get beyond the interminable, and I think pointless debate about sexual orientation per se.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

mitex
**
How I am I atheist lol? Did I ever deny the basic teachings of the Church lol? **

So sorry. I think I got you confused with somebody on another thread.

Hope you will make an allowance for this greybeard?

 

[mitex]

mitex
**
How I am I atheist lol? Did I ever deny the basic teachings of the Church lol? **

So sorry. I think I got you confused with somebody on another thread.

Hope you will make an allowance for this greybeard?

It’s fine lol my apologies

 

[Elizabeth502]

Different people are tempted by sin in different ways.

Yes, depending on what tempts an individual to sin. There are common threads in the dynamic of temptation, sin, the habit of sin, and attachment to sin. All the great spiritual writers echo these realities.

my goal was only to attempt to get beyond the interminable, and I think pointless debate about sexual orientation per se.

It’s only “pointless” if the concept is dormant. If one is wedded to an orientation to any disorder – including these disorders, then one is, in the terminology of Catholic spirituality, attached:
pumping up one’s ego (and the lies, exaggerations, and “political” battles with others in the service of one’s ego),
gossip, and the emotional ‘benefits’ accruing to that,
coveting material items to a distorted degree
personal comfort, at the cost of diligence in one’s job or role
etc.

All attachment to disorder prevents spiritual growth, by its being active (embraced due to negligence in the battle against it). It doesn’t matter whether that attachment is embraced as an “orientation,” an “identity,” etc. If an individual proclaims an attraction, a habit, a disorder as “permanent,” then one is putting obstacles in the way of growth. Outside of the sexual area, we all have personality traits that incline us toward certain faults, despite having perhaps the best role models in our development and excellent religious direction and resources. It is guaranteed that we will not grow in Christ unless we fix our identity on Him, as opposed to the latest populist “identity” fad. At my Particular Judgment, I will not be evaluated on whether I was “a good heterosexual.”

 

[michelleds]

All attachment to disorder prevents spiritual growth, by its being active (embraced due to negligence in the battle against it). It doesn’t matter whether that attachment is embraced as an “orientation,” an “identity,” etc. If an individual proclaims an attraction, a habit, a disorder as “permanent,” then one is putting obstacles in the way of growth. {snip} It is guaranteed that we will not grow in Christ unless we fix our identity on Him, as opposed to the latest populist “identity” fad.

Exactly.

 

[mitex]

Exactly.

Are you saying one can not identify as gay, celibate, and Catholic?

 

[michelleds]

Are you saying one can not identify as gay, celibate, and Catholic?

We’ve had a couple of threads on this very issue. I believe that identifying oneself as “gay” is expressing an attachment to sin. Others do not agree with me. They believe that either (1) the modifier “chaste” or “celibate” is sufficient to alleviate such attachment, or (2) that the modifier isn’t necessary and this identity is somehow part of their “core” and therefore, no one should try to take that away from them.

I believe that we are not to be attached to the things of this world; that “sexual identity” is a thing of this world; therefore, I do not want to be attached to such.

We are all called to holiness, to be Saints. The Saints weren’t running around identifying themselves with things of this world and by their example, I don’t believe we should either.

 

[mitex]

We’ve had a couple of threads on this very issue. I believe that identifying oneself as “gay” is expressing an attachment to sin. Others do not agree with me. They believe that either (1) the modifier “chaste” or “celibate” is sufficient to alleviate such attachment, or (2) that the modifier isn’t necessary and this identity is somehow part of their “core” and therefore, no one should try to take that away from them.

I believe that we are not to be attached to the things of this world; that “sexual identity” is a thing of this world; therefore, I do not want to be attached to such.

We are all called to holiness, to be Saints. The Saints weren’t running around identifying themselves with things of this world and by their example, I don’t believe we should either.

That’s just an opinion of course

 

[michelleds]

That’s just an opinion of course

Did I imply otherwise?

 

[mitex]

Did I imply otherwise?

No?