Homosexuality, causes and treatment

[mitex]

In this, you are not alot different from a compulsive philanderer. I pray that you find comfort and peace in God’s love.

You just judged me on the basis of a few minute forum posts?! You know nothing about my personal life, political beliefs, social life, family situation, or any of that and you compare me to a sex addict?!

Did you not see the fact I was celibate?

I’m pretty sure Jesus ministered and loved people like me.

I’m pretty sure you just violated every part of the catechism for non-discrimination and sensitivity for homosexuals.

What have I done that has offended yourself or your views other than oppose something I feel is morally wrong (ex-gay therapy)? Please tell me I wish to know so I may apologize and rectify the situation.

You just judged when you know nothing about me except on the basis I identify as gay!

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

You just judged me on the basis of a few minute forum posts?! You know nothing about my personal life, political beliefs, social life, family situation, or any of that and you compare me to a sex addict?!

Did you not see the fact I was celibate?

I’m pretty sure Jesus ministered and loved people like me.

I’m pretty sure you just violated every part of the catechism for non-discrimination and sensitivity for homosexuals.

What have I done that has offended yourself or your views other than oppose something I feel is morally wrong (ex-gay therapy)? Please tell me I wish to know so I may apologize and rectify the situation.

You just judged when you know nothing about me except on the basis I identify as gay!

Wow, I pray and hope for God’s love and peace for you and I am judging you?

You acknowledge that your attraction is defined by the Church as disordered. I said this disordered sexual attraction is not different from a compulsive philanderer (a man who has casual sex with numerous women). We are all called to a life of chastity. Even myself, I am called to a life of sexual purity within the construct of my marriage. I fight the compulsive lust for other women I interact with every day. I am a recovering (thanks to God) compulsive fornicator. I understand the struggle. I simply hope and pray that you find peace and hope in God’s love. I mean, if you find it offensive that I am praying for you, maybe you should recheck the Church’s teaching on the subject. I’m still going to pray though.

 

[mitex]

Wow, I pray and hope for God’s love and peace for you and I am judging you?

You acknowledge that your attraction is defined by the Church as disordered. I said this disordered sexual attraction is not different from a compulsive philanderer (a man who has casual sex with numerous women). We are all called to a life of chastity. Even myself, I am called to a life of sexual purity within the construct of my marriage. I fight the compulsive lust for other women I interact with every day. I am a recovering (thanks to God) compulsive fornicator. I understand the struggle. I simply hope and pray that you find peace and hope in God’s love. I mean, if you find it offensive that I am praying for you, maybe you should recheck the Church’s teaching on the subject. I’m still going to pray though.

Sorry… I misunderstood you…

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

Sorry… I misunderstood you…

Happens all the time. I have trouble nuancing my discussion sometimes and come across as too forthright and judgemental. Its a personal weakness. I’m working on it.

 

[John21652]

North Pacific Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends.

And what is your group’s stance on homosexuality? Judging from what you frequently post, it is substabtially different from other groups. The Mid America group are clearly against homosexuality. Are you doing anything to tell them how wrong they are, or is it your personal mission to preach to Catholics? And what is it that all those Quaker groups have in common, if anything? I’m tempted to say “moral relativism”, but the Mid America group proves me wrong.

One of my favorite quotes usuallly found in every Quaker Book of Disipline/Faith and Practice is

“The unity of Christians never did nor ever will or can stand in uniformity of thought and opinion, but in Christian love only.”
Thomas Story, 1737

And didn’t that Englishman set out to prove that to be true when he refused to either fight or finance the war against France. He was a traitor to his own Christian society.

 

[Publisher]

And what is your group’s stance on homosexuality? Judging from what you frequently post, it is substabtially different from other groups. The Mid America group are clearly against homosexuality. Are you doing anything to tell them how wrong they are, or is it your personal mission to preach to Catholics? And what is it that all those Quaker groups have in common, if anything? I’m tempted to say “moral relativism”, but the Mid America group proves me wrong.

And didn’t that Englishman set out to prove that to be true when he refused to either fight or finance the war against France. He was a traitor to his own Christian society.

We discussed for years how to treat those in our midst who were gay and lesbian…we prayed and read the scriptures and discussed and prayed…and finally after years of discussion decided that we would accept thos gay and lesbian Friends in our midst as Friends. I have had the joy and honor of serving as Recording Clerk to the Presiding Clerk who happened to be lesbian…I have stood arm and arm in dishing out food to the homeless with my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters…I have sat with dying Friends holding their hands as they gasped their last as they succumed to AIDS and prayed with their partner while we waited for the coroner. I respect those who struggle for equality and join with them in that struggle to secure their rights…we are Friends.

Since it is love toward one another which binds us together, Friends have sought to work together even when we have our differences. What all Friends have in common is the belief that God is at work in each of us…and that God can and does speak to each heart. We do not discount each other’s opinions…nor do the majority have the truth…God can speak thru the minority in our midst, so each of us seeks to listen to one another and hear “that of God” in our brothers and sisters…despite our differences.

One thing we learned was that while as a society of believers we do not seek to wage war against others, neither can we osticize those in our midst who does decide to deny the Peace Testimony…they too are worthy of our respect and our love…no matter how much we differ concerning their decisions.

We seek to listen to “that of God” in one another…and collectively discern His will.

Friend William Penn was an English admirals son and wore a sword. When he became a Friend he asked George Fox if he’d have to remove his sword to be a Friend…George said to him…“Wear it as long as thee can.”…the next time they met, he had removed his sword…when asked by George why he wasn’t wearing his sword, William said…“I wore it as long as I could.” That sentiment is how Friends deal with one another…we do what we do…even if against Friends tesitmony and belief…“as long as we can”…we don’t cast out our brother who disagrees with us…we seek to understand him/her and recognize “that of God” within them.

I have no “mission” to “preach to Catholics”…but to share my experience with God and hopefully to learn more about what Catholics believe and seek to understand a commonality we share…it is not our similarities which make us one in Him…it is His work in us…and while we may differ on how we percieve “working out our own salvation”, we still are brothers and sisters in Christ…it is He that joins us to Himself…so…as a Friend, I seek to respect and “listen” to “that of God”…even in the most “un-lovely” person God is still present and He can still make Himself known.

The monthly meeting I worship with is quite liberal…yet once a month we meet with those of the “Friend’s churches”…which tend to be quite conservative in belief and practice…to worship together “after the manner of Friends”…it is God who joins us to Himself and one another…despite our differences and our political stance. I don’t have to agree with those of Northwest Yearly Meeting of Friends Church…but I can worship with them and at the end of meeting shake their hands in peace.

 

[InSearchofGrace]

wow, so this is what has become of my thread.

I get the feeling that not one, not one, cared to look at the conference talk by Dr. Nicolosi, but almost everyone is ranting on about

• change is impossible
• the church has no stance
• my gut feeling tells me this and that
• these bad therapists shouldn’t be going around promising full recovery to homosexuals!
  and even one had the gut to say that offering therapy to people to are very unhappy with their ssa is a violation of human rights.

From now on, everyone please comment when you have already watched the talk.
I am not interested in hearing your personal feelings coloured by the fallen culture we live in.

I grew up in that myself and thought “gays are born like that”, until I came across serious research by Joseph Nicolosi, Janelle Hallman, read numerous testimonies on NARTH.com on other media.

You only need to do a few searches on google to see that people have indeed been healed in the name of Jesus from ssa. Whether you believe ssa is a gender deficit or merely a spiritual problem, Jesus is the healer for all.

Dr. Nicolosi himself claims that his successrate is the same as other psychotherapy… that is, not everyone gets healed, but very many, if they come of themselves, find out the root causes of their gender disorder and actually become able to, although late, to work on identifying with maleness and differentiation from femaleness (if they are male) plus figuring out a heck of a lot more about what is going on and why…

Its worth listening to.

GraceDK,

Your linked video clip is worth a listen. It is not that long, just 9 minutes. Dr. N made clear that his talk was neither about blame nor guilt, but about presenting a developmental model and program that can work for many clients who seek treatment.

I also went on the www.josephnicolosi.com and viewed a 3-part video presentation on the common patterns observed in clients with unwanted same sex attraction. Dr. N, in drawing from his work with young adult and adult clients, stated that the ideal candidate is one who is not forced to therapy by the parents or church to which he/she belongs. In short, a big factor in the success of sexual re-orientation is the motivation of the individual him/herself. Also of interest is Dr. N’s definition of cure – it does not mean a homosexual will never feel sexual attraction to a member of his/her own sex anymore. It is arriving at a stage in life whereby he/she no longer lives around same sex attraction, with reduction of feelings of SSA, and opening of oneself to life as a heterosexual. Another factor is the amount of homosexual experience one brings into therapy. Obviously, it is more difficult for one who is deeply entrenched in the lifestyle to change than one in a situational or non-habitual situation.

In the video link you supplied as the OP, Dr. N raised four myths, the third underlined as some contention arose in discussion of it in this thread:
10% of the population is gay
born gay
once gay always gay
homosexuality is normal in every way

Homosexuals seeking change, and parents and loved ones of youth struggling with homosexuality issues need to be wary as they are not served by a mainstream mental health profession that has partnered with gay activism. These activists are aggressively claiming language and social areas with profound effect on everyone to achieve not just tolerance but total acceptance and normalization of homosexuality, as evidenced by efforts to legalize same sex ‘marriage’ in every state and the grab for adoption rights by homosexual couples of children. Indeed marriage and family are being revamped not insignificantly by moral relativism and tyranny helped along by legislative connections and judicial means.
,

 

[mitex]

GraceDK,

Your linked video clip is worth a listen. It is not that long, just 9 minutes. Dr. N made clear that his talk was neither about blame nor guilt, but about presenting a developmental model and program that can work for many clients who seek treatment.

I also went on the www.josephnicolosi.com and viewed a 3-part video presentation on the common patterns observed in clients with unwanted same sex attraction. Dr. N, in drawing from his work with young adult and adult clients, stated that the ideal candidate is one who is not forced to therapy by the parents or church to which he/she belongs. In short, a big factor in the success of sexual re-orientation is the motivation of the individual him/herself. Also of interest is Dr. N’s definition of cure – it does not mean a homosexual will never feel sexual attraction to a member of his/her own sex anymore. It is arriving at a stage in life whereby he/she no longer lives around same sex attraction, with reduction of feelings of SSA, and emerging potential to live as a heterosexual. Another factor is the amount of homosexual experience one brings into therapy. Obviously, it is more difficult for one who is deeply entrenched in the lifestyle to change than one in a situational or non-habitual situation.

In the video link you supplied as the OP, Dr. N raised four myths, the third underlined as some contention arose in discussion of it in this thread:
10% of the population is gay
born gay
once gay always gay
homosexuality is normal in every way

Homosexuals seeking change, and parents and loved ones of youth struggling with homosexuality issues need to be wary as they are not served by a mainstream mental health profession that has partnered with gay activism. These activists are aggressively claiming language and social areas with profound effect on everyone to achieve not just tolerance but total acceptance and normalization of homosexuality, as evidenced by efforts to legalize same sex ‘marriage’ in every state and the grab for adoption rights by homosexual couples of children. Indeed marriage and family are being revamped not insignificantly by moral relativism and tyranny helped along by legislative connections and judicial means.
,

Okay if someone wants to change their sexual orientation/identity or SSA as you call it. That’s fine I’m learning to deal with these people.

But no one should be forced into change. As you implied that youth should submit to their parents change efforts? No one should be forced and Always Our Children backs me up on that.

 

[GraceDK]

michelleds the first night I walked into a ex-gay group shortly after starting RCIA I was told to deny something that was part of me and not tell anyone about it (and this group is sanctioned by the Church).

Because if I was to tell anyone about it that somehow made me a bad person. I got a card referring me to NARTH the first night (supposedly I was under on obligation to change my sexual identity ).

So I went along with it for several months six to be exact. I spent $1000 on a rip off therapist who used abusive techniques such as bioenergetics and aversion therapy.

To make a long story short my feelings only got bigger and stronger from the experience. If you didn’t experience an abusive time at ex-gay therapy well then good for you. But I know many people like myself and others who went through the fires of hell and back for nothing but broken promises.

And I know many “ex-gays” who have admitted that their still homosexuals or experience feelings! I cite Alan Chambers and Smid as the two biggest.

Michelleds if you want to believe that you have truly experienced healing and the power of Christ at work. Then go for it and believe it. That’s called faith and I can applaud that.

But for me there is no healing. Only reality of dealing with a situation you can’t change. That I am a homosexual and nothing I do will change that.

This thread is not for all kinds of groups and oppinions to hijack it.
If people wanna advertise something then please do it elsewhere.

---

I would like to spread the knowlege of Nicolosi’s work and hear especially from people who struggle with ssa, if they find his theories and research usefull for themselves.

Mitex, I am sure you can and do find useless therapies and people who don’t understand you.
Precisely because you are struggling with ssa I would like to hear your oppionion about the precise talk by Nicolosi.

Nicolosi does not say that his clients will all be healed or fully have hetero sexual longings. On the contrary, he says that many of the clients still from time to time experience some ssa attraction and longings after they have ended therapy.
But many of them become enabled to experience this far less, many of them actually succeed in successfully identifying with the biologically male identity, feel good around straight males and differentiate themselves from feminie identity (which normally is done in a healthy individual in the genderidentity phase before the age of 3), feel attraction towards women and experience fullfilling marriage (sexual and friendship).
Some of the clients don’t feel any improvement. Some of them come for the wrong reasons (eg, their family pressures them to go to therapy) and some just start to know themselves more, and to live without risktaking compulsive sexual behaviour.
Nicolosi also explains why male ssa is far more common than female ssa.

I think the talk is really worth listening to. But you are the target-group, to say if there is anything in his talk that resembles your own situation and past.

Two gay men who went into some program (which I know nothing about) and end up falling back into sexual relationships with each other, well it doesn’t prove that nothing ever worked for anybody.
Actually, what I rather noticed is that these guys were looking into such programs in the first place, meaning, there is some fulfillment they already didn’t find in the gay lifestyle. They wanted to get out of it… Then they didn’t feel helped, or they gave into temptation, and started rationalizing that it wasn’t worth it ever to ask for help in the first place…
There is nothing unsual psychologically speaking, that people have this defence mecanism, and that it brings some kind of relief to act out.

 

[GraceDK]

GraceDK,

Your linked video clip is worth a listen. It is not that long, just 9 minutes. Dr. N made clear that his talk was neither about blame nor guilt, but about presenting a developmental model and program that can work for many clients who seek treatment.

I also went on the www.josephnicolosi.com and viewed a 3-part video presentation on the common patterns observed in clients with unwanted same sex attraction. Dr. N, in drawing from his work with young adult and adult clients, stated that the ideal candidate is one who is not forced to therapy by the parents or church to which he/she belongs. In short, a big factor in the success of sexual re-orientation is the motivation of the individual him/herself. Also of interest is Dr. N’s definition of cure – it does not mean a homosexual will never feel sexual attraction to a member of his/her own sex anymore. It is arriving at a stage in life whereby he/she no longer lives around same sex attraction, with reduction of feelings of SSA, and opening of oneself to life as a heterosexual. Another factor is the amount of homosexual experience one brings into therapy. Obviously, it is more difficult for one who is deeply entrenched in the lifestyle to change than one in a situational or non-habitual situation.

In the video link you supplied as the OP, Dr. N raised four myths, the third underlined as some contention arose in discussion of it in this thread:
10% of the population is gay
born gay
once gay always gay
homosexuality is normal in every way

Homosexuals seeking change, and parents and loved ones of youth struggling with homosexuality issues need to be wary as they are not served by a mainstream mental health profession that has partnered with gay activism. These activists are aggressively claiming language and social areas with profound effect on everyone to achieve not just tolerance but total acceptance and normalization of homosexuality, as evidenced by efforts to legalize same sex ‘marriage’ in every state and the grab for adoption rights by homosexual couples of children. Indeed marriage and family are being revamped not insignificantly by moral relativism and tyranny helped along by legislative connections and judicial means.
,

Wow… what? I posted the wrong video… this is the one I wanted to post…the 3-part thing.
No wonder people “comment in east and west” …

youtube.com/watch?v=VjQT4QXBpEQ
youtube.com/watch?v=VUhttwmWQoU&feature=related
youtube.com/watch?v=Tm43ow64YG4&feature=related

 

[Hadrianus]

michelleds the first night I walked into a ex-gay group shortly after starting RCIA I was told to deny something that was part of me and not tell anyone about it (and this group is sanctioned by the Church).

Because if I was to tell anyone about it that somehow made me a bad person. I got a card referring me to NARTH the first night (supposedly I was under on obligation to change my sexual identity ).

So I went along with it for several months six to be exact. I spent $1000 on a rip off therapist who used abusive techniques such as bioenergetics and aversion therapy.

To make a long story short my feelings only got bigger and stronger from the experience. If you didn’t experience an abusive time at ex-gay therapy well then good for you. But I know many people like myself and others who went through the fires of hell and back for nothing but broken promises.

And I know many “ex-gays” who have admitted that their still homosexuals or experience feelings! I cite Alan Chambers and Smid as the two biggest.

Michelleds if you want to believe that you have truly experienced healing and the power of Christ at work. Then go for it and believe it. That’s called faith and I can applaud that.

But for me there is no healing. Only reality of dealing with a situation you can’t change. That I am a homosexual and nothing I do will change that.

Mitex,
I am sorry you were given the impression that the Catholic Church "sanctions" reparative therapy. The Church, in fact, has no opinion on it and you won't find it mentioned in any magisterial document. From what you say it seems that the particular group of Catholics you met endorse it, but they cannot speak for the Church, and it strikes me as odd that they would try to impose it on someone in RCIA.

 

[LovePatience]

Many forms of therapy are ineffective. Some forms are effective, but they are well researched and for specific symptoms.

“In a review of forty-two studies comparing professional therapists with paraprofessional therapists (such as teachers given the job of counseling students), only one study showed that the trained therapists got better results. Twenty-nine studies showed no difference between the two groups, and the remaining twelve studies showed that the paraprofessionals actually outperformed the professional therapists” (p. 130).

antipsychiatry.org/br-thdel.htm

 

[mitex]

Mitex,

        I am sorry you were given the impression that the Catholic Church "sanctions" reparative therapy. The Church, in fact, has no opinion on it and you won't find it mentioned in any magisterial document. From what you say it seems that the particular group of Catholics you met endorse it, but they cannot speak for the Church, and it strikes me as odd that they would try to impose it on someone in RCIA.

I was referrred to Courage who referred me to NARTH…

 

[Hadrianus]

I was referrred to Courage who referred me to NARTH…

I believe that Courage as such is approved by the American bishops; but individual chapters vary as with all such groups. I know it is not a universal practice of Courage to refer people to NARTH, unless of course, they ask to be. The Church herself would never require this.

 

[parable1]

honestly I think its mainly they like same sex intamacy. Has nothing to do with genes, dna or anything like that.

 

[reallyru4real]

I just can’t understand what you call curing gays when i read vouthon’s post “However, some gays have in fact become heterosexual which if anything shows the fluidity of human sexuality, and the fact that we really don’t have as yet a through understanding of the human mind and thought processes.” I thought many they are saying there hetro because they have people like you saying how wrong they are and trying to screw with them.

you nor does anyone ls have the right to say that gays are wrong or that they are in need of curing. it is not a genetic thing or a choice you just are. if you think that being gay is treatable than by that logic you think anyone can be homosexual so i challenge you for one day be gay go date a guy or something i just don’t see what you people don’t understand about homosexuality. there have been homosexuals since time began o GET OVER IT

 

[RiverTam51]

Homosexuals persons must prove to a court, using the latest scientific research, that same-sex marriage will not create problems for society as a whole.
Human sexuality is not fluid. It takes two people to perform a sex act involving an exchange of bodily fluids.

This is frankly ridiculous. Not even the best stock market analysts can accurately predict the implications of a tiny change in the market, much less prove that their predictions will work in a scientific or legal manner. And society is dozens of times more complex than economics.
We do not force biochemical companies to prove that their medicines will never have bad side effects for anyone. We do not force car companies to prove that their cars will never crash. We do not force investment companies to prove that their stock transfers will not hurt the economy. Yes, sometimes there are bad, widely felt results. But to ask people to predict chaotic systems is an impossible task. We ask them to do a reasonable amount of testing, then tentatively approve their action. And when Thalidomide cripples babies, Toyotas’ brakes give out, and the economy crashes, we learn from our mistakes.
The evidence so far is that the benefits of allowing gay marriage, on an economic and social level (the happiness of the couple and their ability to own property together), are far better than any deficits. The government, being a non-religious entity, must deal with the issue on this level.
When gay marriage causes a social apocalypse, let me know and I’ll petition my senator to ban it.

 

[John21652]

This is frankly ridiculous. Not even the best stock market analysts can accurately predict the implications of a tiny change in the market, much less prove that their predictions will work in a scientific or legal manner. And society is dozens of times more complex than economics.

Ever heard of risk management and due diligence? Random, public, usupported stock market predictions can get an individual into a whole lot of trouble. The homosexual marriage issue is not a complicated economic issue, but a standalone social issue which doesn’t require rocket science to understand it as something quite disordered and abnormal.

We do not force biochemical companies to prove that their medicines will never have bad side effects for anyone.

Yes we do. Ever wondered why it takes so long to get a drug to market? Ever heard of LD tests done with drugs on mice and rabbits? The regulations governing drug research, development, manufacture and marketing are horrendously stringent. All designed to avoid catostrophic impacts of a drug’s release onto the market.

We do not force car companies to prove that their cars will never crash.

Drivers are tested and licensed in the hope they wont crash a car. Car manufacturers are forced to comply to stringent safety standards during manufacture so that when dumb drivers crash, they might survive. If drivers are too dumb they might even be refused a licence in the interests of public safety.

We do not force investment companies to prove that their stock transfers will not hurt the economy.

You are being rediculously selective and a little unreal, because investment companies are governed by laws which make certain transactions illegal; in the national interest, of course.

Yes, sometimes there are bad, widely felt results.

And if laws are broken, the national interest is harmed, or individuals pose a public safety hazard, they are dealt with accordingly.

But to ask people to predict chaotic systems is an impossible task. We ask them to do a reasonable amount of testing, then tentatively approve their action. And when Thalidomide cripples babies, Toyotas’ brakes give out, and the economy crashes, we learn from our mistakes.

That learning also happens to include stricter regulation and quality control throughout the entire process.

The evidence so far is that the benefits of allowing gay marriage, on an economic and social level (the happiness of the couple and their ability to own property together), are far better than any deficits.

Well, isn’t that a typical utilitarian point of view! Considering how the issue of gay marriage only pertains to around 3% of the population, how is it conceivable that the happiness of the 3%, assuming they wioll all get married and be happy, can possibly outweigh the unhappiness of the majority whose morality is being trashed?

The government, being a non-religious entity, must deal with the issue on this level.

What level? A Utilitarian level? So ou advocate a discredited philosophical approach to running government?

When gay marriage causes a social apocalypse, let me know and I’ll petition my senator to ban it.

You have contradicted your own arguemnt. You mention about learning from the mistakes of things like thalidomide and the lessons learnt result in far more stringent controls and checking before drugs are released onto the market. Yet here, it is Ok to do something first and worry about the consequences later. With that logic, you could argue for less stringent controls on the manufacturing and marketing of anything. Gee, you’d end up being electrocuted by your toaster.

 

[RiverTam51]

Exactly.
We require small-scale testing to ensure that a car will probably be safe, that a drug will rarely cause side effects, and that a type of stock trading is not unfair or harmful. This quality control is beneficial to all parties, and I am not in any way saying to ignore the data we have or are gathering. Once we see that something is not harmful in most cases, we cautiously allow it on a larger scale. Thalidomide, Toyotas, and the recent stock market crash are all examples of how this can go wrong. But, if we erred on the side of caution, we would have fewer benefits today, which is why we did not place a burden of indefinitely stringent proof on these changes.
No, gay marriage is not a complicated social issue. It is a relatively simple one, although I disagree with you on the morality. But social trends, like economics and the chemistry of the human body, and unlike most areas of rocket science, are a highly chaotic system-making a small change has huge consequences, so we cannot reasonably ask for absolute proof of an outcome.
Long-term homosexual relationships have been around for quite some time now, with no blaring negative consequences for those involved. So, I think that we should legalize these on a larger scale now that we have seen that there are no major issues on the small scale.
And no, I do not mention the “moral dangers” to the gay couple. I firmly believe that God does not punish disobediance of the Bible by those who do not believe in the Bible.
Here, the happiness of the gay 3? 2? 5?% outweighs that of the 47%(Gallup poll) of Americans who are against gay marriage because of the stake they have in it. The majority of people around me disliked that I ate onions today. However, I enjoyed the onions much more than all of them together disliked my breath, so it is good that I can legally eat onions. This is the same reason we ought to illegalize abortion-many women would feel affronted, especially those who would have gotten abortions, but the rights of the babies to life outweighs the rights of the women to nine months of an empty uterus.