Homosexuality in geneology?

[RCSeminarian]

My Brother and Sisters in Christ,
We must remember that in order to be true Christians we must love each other. We do not have to agree with each others actions in fact we are called to correct the actions of our brethern in order to save both our brother/sister and ourselves. However, it is the action that is to be judged not the person.

Homosexuals are called to live a chaste life just as a non-married heterosexual is called to live a chaste life.

Sexual intimacy is reserved for the Sanctity of Marriage. Which means a marriage through the Holy Church.

I have a family member who is homosexual and I am on the road to priesthood. However, I do not condemn my cousin, but I do condemn his actions when her partakes in homosexual relations.

Peace!

 

[roseinthewinter]

This is something that sort of makes me mad…I mean we spend so much time and money trying to legalize gay marriage and ‘accept’ those who suffer from homosexual tendencies when what we really need to do is find ways to help them. I work with troubled teens, and some of them think they are gay… To me it is a Physcological problem that deserves treatment just like personality disorder or any other disorder. Most of the time, and I do not say all the time, there is a deeper issue that needs to be taken care of and healed within these people. Just like so many other things that people do like drug or achohol abuse…there is a reason, but its never accepted as normal. So why do we all sit and talk like this is a " normal" thing and that these people need rights to destroy themselves…instead of reaching out and treating it like it is…an illness and abnormal inclination…Sure these people deserve respect, but most of all the deserve true love, which mean facing the facts and helping them to overcome this tendency or at least to live a chaste life and not act upon it.

Also as a side note , if a person is “born” homosexual it is still an abnormailty…God does not create people as " straight" or “gay”…He may allow it to happen…but He does not make them that way…

 

[Fitswimmer]

FitSwimmer, you are certainly an argument for a congenital predisposition!

The funny thing is that there’s very little difference between you and me, I, too, “didn’t act like them, I didn’t dress like them (when I had a choice) and I wasn’t interested in any of the things they were” (with the exception of the Beatles & Beach Boys); and I’d for sure “rather spend a Saturday watching baseball than the Food network!” (Go, Rockies & Red Sox!)

I wanted to be a boy - but it wasn’t anything like sexual - it was because they got to have all the fun.

That’s probably why I have found it so easy to be friends with Lesbians - we have a lot in common!

It wasn’t until I was in my late 30s that I began becoming more traditional, doing crafts and becoming interested in “home and hearth,” so to speak.

May God bless you with the strength to choose celibacy. If you think you’d like to talk with me further, please PM me!

Ruthie

Thank you Ruthie, for your kind words.

Everyone thought I’d eventually “see the light” too, but it never happened. Oh, I tried. I spent years trying desperately to fit in, because I believed that I was damaged, disordered, mentally ill and all the things that people have said here. To be placed in the same category as serial killers does wonders for my day. It’s still hurtful to read even after all this time. I guess there’s nothing anyone can do to make people understand what it feels like to be put in those categories over something about yourself that you didn’t choose and can’t control.

 

[Telemachus]

A few quick points:
(a) Charity, charity, charity. Each situation is different, and you have to consider homosexuals as singular people, not as big groups of political activists. There are many people with SSDA that are coming here and reading bombastic statements that only make them hate Catholic sexual morality even more than they already do. Again, charity people!
(b) Genetic does not equal biological. I see this fallacy in basic science coming up over and over again in these conversations from both sides of the aisle. The simplest way to make the distinction is hard-wired (genetic) and soft-wired (biological). When somebody says there’s a “biological” component, that could simply mean that something is happening in utero, which would be a chemical process not an inherent genetic trait.
(c) Finally, the issue that really matters in the end is the normalization of homosexual relationships as being equivalent with heterosexual relationships in terms of marriage and family. This is what needs to be argued on these boards, and not the scientific backgrounds of homosexuality; that’s too sketchy of a subject. However, morality and justice do not depend on science, they are above science, so debate those instead.

God Bless,
Telemachus

 

[cargau]

Thank you Ruthie, for your kind words.

Everyone thought I’d eventually “see the light” too, but it never happened. Oh, I tried. I spent years trying desperately to fit in, because I believed that I was damaged, disordered, mentally ill and all the things that people have said here. To be placed in the same category as serial killers does wonders for my day. It’s still hurtful to read even after all this time. I guess there’s nothing anyone can do to make people understand what it feels like to be put in those categories over something about yourself that you didn’t choose and can’t control.

Ruthie,

I never compared anyone to a serial killer. I was merely trying to draw the distinction between someone born with an unalterable characteristic such as skin color from a controllable characteristics such as a behavorial trait. There is a big difference.

I don’t hate you or anyone else who may have a same sex attraction. In fact, I pray for God’s help in carrying your cross. I do not make light of your burden. But, that does not mean I have to celebrate the notion that a gay lifestyle is a beautiful thing.

I would encourage you to stop seeing yourself as a victim whose only recourse is to give in to the gay agenda.

God loves you and knows that you are struggling. He will help you carry your cross.

 

[Fitswimmer]

Ruthie,

I never compared anyone to a serial killer. I was merely trying to draw the distinction between someone born with an unalterable characteristic such as skin color from a controllable characteristics such as a behavorial trait. There is a big difference.

I don’t hate you or anyone else who may have a same sex attraction. In fact, I pray for God’s help in carrying your cross. I do not make light of your burden. But, that does not mean I have to celebrate the notion that a gay lifestyle is a beautiful thing.

I would encourage you to stop seeing yourself as a victim whose only recourse is to give in to the gay agenda.

God loves you and knows that you are struggling. He will help you carry your cross.

I think you meant me, but that’s ok.

I will stop seeing myself and those like me as victims when well meaning Christians stop seeing me as mentally ill, and disordered REGARDLESS of whether we “give in to the gay agenda” or not. I will stop viewing homosexuals as victims when homosexuals stop getting beaten, sometimes to death because of the outward signs of their orientation.

When people on the outside stop viewing us negatively based on assumptions about our sexual activity, then we will stop being victimized.

I wonder if Jeffrey Dahmer had a gene that made him a mass murderer. Or if Hitler had a gene that made him hate Jews.

That is a direct comparision to those of us who believe that there is a genetic component to being gay to a serial killer and a mass murderer.

 

[cargau]

I think you meant me, but that’s ok.

I will stop seeing myself and those like me as victims when well meaning Christians stop seeing me as mentally ill, and disordered REGARDLESS of whether we “give in to the gay agenda” or not. I will stop viewing homosexuals as victims when homosexuals stop getting beaten, sometimes to death because of the outward signs of their orientation.

When people on the outside stop viewing us negatively based on assumptions about our sexual activity, then we will stop being victimized.

That is a direct comparision to those of us who believe that there is a genetic component to being gay to a serial killer and a mass murderer.

I draw a reasonable analogy and the example is completely distorted.

If you are not willing to acknowledge that homosexual acts are disordered, then we can have no further dialogue. It is only in acknowledging this truth that you can grow from here. And, yes, I am a well meaning Christian. I am more concerned with your immortal soul than allowing yourself to acquiesce to your human temptations.

One last question…If someone has a proclivity to certain immoral activity, say pedophilia, should we accept that lifestyle, too? Is there a gene that makes them that way?

 

[pathia]

One last question…If someone has a proclivity to certain immoral activity, say pedophilia, should we accept that lifestyle, too? Is there a gene that makes them that way?

The difference is a question of harm. A pedophile corrupts innocence and his or her sexual outlet is aimed at those that cannot consent. That is not the case in someone who is attracted to adults of the same sex. Even if you consider it harm to be SSA, they are of the age of consent and reason, they are allowed to freely choose. A child cannot. That is the difference.

 

[cargau]

The difference is a question of harm. A pedophile corrupts innocence and his or her sexual outlet is aimed at those that cannot consent. That is not the case in someone who is attracted to adults of the same sex. Even if you consider it harm to be SSA, they are of the age of consent and reason, they are allowed to freely choose. A child cannot. That is the difference.

That is a valid point. I really hadn’t considered the fact that consequential harm to others was a determiner in this case. I only considered the morality of the acts.

Suppose instead of pedophilia, we substitutesd drug abuser. Is that a better example?

 

[pathia]

That is a valid point. I really hadn’t considered the fact that consequential harm to others was a determiner in this case. I only considered the morality of the acts.

Suppose instead of pedophilia, we substitutesd drug abuser. Is that a better example?

Drugs are different too and against the law because if someone can become dependent on them and unable to support themselves. They then drag the rest of society down in paying for their care. Not to mention the crime and violence associated with the drug trade itself.

One could possibly claim it is similar in the fact gay men have a greater chance of getting HIV. However, almost all insurance policies have clauses that they won’t cover STDs gotten from unsafe sex practices or drug use, so the financial burden is kept to the person, rather than society.

 

[Fitswimmer]

I draw a reasonable analogy and the example is completely distorted.

If you are not willing to acknowledge that homosexual acts are disordered, then we can have no further dialogue. It is only in acknowledging this truth that you can grow from here. And, yes, I am a well meaning Christian. I am more concerned with your immortal soul than allowing yourself to acquiesce to your human temptations.

One last question…If someone has a proclivity to certain immoral activity, say pedophilia, should we accept that lifestyle, too? Is there a gene that makes them that way?

Someone who cannot control their sexual impulses-be they attracted to their own gender, children or the opposite gender-I would consider them disordered. Likewise, I would consider someone who cannot control their impulses to drink to excess or use illegal drugs as disordered. Someone who cannot control their impulses to act out violently, I would consider that person as disordered.

Our inclination to sin is a disorder and it is not confined to those who are homosexual.

 

[SilentKnight]

The difference is a question of harm. A pedophile corrupts innocence and his or her sexual outlet is aimed at those that cannot consent. That is not the case in someone who is attracted to adults of the same sex. Even if you consider it harm to be SSA, they are of the age of consent and reason, they are allowed to freely choose. A child cannot. That is the difference.

But homosexual activity corrupts innocence as well and is every bit as “harmful” as pedophelia is.

The real difference between the two is that while in pedophilia, typically one party is conscious of the harm and the other is not and feels the act “normal” or “gratifying”, in homosexual activity between adults, (at least in some instances) both parties are unconscious of the harm they are doing to each other and both often (not always) feel the act to be very normal.

So, the difference, really, is a matter of how many parties are conscious of the harm and how many are not, in essence.

The definition of “harm” cannot be reduced to “that which causes physical or psychological pain” because if we look at it that way, things like vaccinations are harmful and things like beastiality are not in that typically no one gets “hurt” in such an act.

This may be difficult for the homosexually oriented person to hear, but, as has been posted already, our aim as Christians is to speak the truth in love and to help those that can heal from abnormalities do so, and to carry the cross with those who cannot.

May grace and peace be multiplied to all.

SK

 

[pathia]

But homosexual activity corrupts innocence as well and is every bit as “harmful” as pedophelia is.

The real difference between the two is that while in pedophilia, typically one party is conscious of the harm and the other is not and feels the act “normal” or “gratifying”, in homosexual activity between adults, (at least in some instances) both parties are unconscious of the harm they are doing to each other and both often (not always) feel the act to be very normal.

SK

The harm and corruption only exists for those that believe it is harmful and corrupting.

That is a circular argument. It makes sense to you, because you have a belief structure to lean on, however for the agnostic/atheist homosexual it means absolutely nothing. If you wish to ‘cure’ a homosexual you should focus on converting them to your beliefs FIRST, then go after their lifestyle, not vice versa.

If you instantly go in and talk about how sinful, disordered and disgusting and revolting they are, what truthfully is the likelihood that they’ll listen to a darn thing you say? Yet that is what I am constantly assaulted with on an every day basis when anyone finds out I am not-straight.

I have never once been given a bible and said ‘please read this’ etc. They just instantly start railing about how I’m going to burn in hell, how my life is destructive, how I am dragging everyone around me into the pit of hell.

Seriously how does anyone expect that to do anything progress wise?

We freely let people drink alcohol, yet it can lead to destructive behavior. If we treated homosexuality the same as alcohol, everyone would have to abstain from alcohol completely, forever.

 

[cargau]

Someone who cannot control their sexual impulses-be they attracted to their own gender, children or the opposite gender-I would consider them disordered. Likewise, I would consider someone who cannot control their impulses to drink to excess or use illegal drugs as disordered. Someone who cannot control their impulses to act out violently, I would consider that person as disordered.

Our inclination to sin is a disorder and it is not confined to those who are homosexual.

That is very well stated. To be disordered means that one is not properly focused on God’s will and plan for us. Believe me, I am a sinner. I don’t sit here in judgement of you any more than I would want someone to judge me. That is for God. But, the Church instructs us edify each other since we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.

I will continue to pray for you…

 

[Fitswimmer]

Thanks-I do appreciate it.

I’m still left with the same questions however. Why is the sin of homosexuality treated so differently than other sins? Why are homosexuals treated as if they are sinners at first glance-without knowledge of their culpability?

 

[rpp]

The harm and corruption only exists for those that believe it is harmful and corrupting.

That is a circular argument. It makes sense to you, because you have a belief structure to lean on, however for the agnostic/atheist homosexual it means absolutely nothing. If you wish to ‘cure’ a homosexual you should focus on converting them to your beliefs FIRST, then go after their lifestyle, not vice versa.

If you instantly go in and talk about how sinful, disordered and disgusting and revolting they are, what truthfully is the likelihood that they’ll listen to a darn thing you say? Yet that is what I am constantly assaulted with on an every day basis when anyone finds out I am not-straight.

I have never once been given a bible and said ‘please read this’ etc. They just instantly start railing about how I’m going to burn in hell, how my life is destructive, how I am dragging everyone around me into the pit of hell.

Seriously how does anyone expect that to do anything progress wise?

We freely let people drink alcohol, yet it can lead to destructive behavior. If we treated homosexuality the same as alcohol, everyone would have to abstain from alcohol completely, forever.

You very first sentence is factually incorrect. Anyone can be innocent. Innocence does not automatically end just because some reaches the age of majority as determined by some civil government.

Next your comment that it is a circular argument does not make logical sense. Homosexual activity is inherently disordered. It is not natural, as nature demonstrates because it is not procreative or post-procreative. Even if someone were “born” that way. That argument for justifying the behavior would also mean that it would be morally wrong to treat people with other birth defects, such as spina bifida, schizophrenia or conjoined twins.

Next your comment that no one has ever apoken to you about hope and only condemned you to hell because you suffer from SSA is patently false. I have seen other threads where you have posted and most people, though there are certainly exceptions, treated you with kindness and respect.

It seems to me that you do not want to actually hear what people say but rather want to scold those who state that acting out homosexual compulsions is sinful, wrong and injures (spiritually and possibly physically) those who engage in it.

I would add that acting heterosexual compulsions outside of marriage is also sinful and harms (at least spiritually) those who engage in it. wrong and legitimate marriage is between one and and one woman. The bible repeated makes that these three points clear.

God calls all people to be chaste, in thought and deed, no matter what their sexual attractions may be.

 

[cargau]

I think it is for three reasons. The first is that there is a serious movement to normalize or rationalize the agenda as being equivilent to any heterosexual marriage. Naturally, there is some pushback from that in an effort to reject the agenda.

Secondly, it is a sin of a sexual nature. Somehow that seems to draw more attention that someone that may have missed Mass last Sunday.

And, finally, I think it is easy to find fault in others when the cross is not one that must be borne by the criticizer.

I think we call it human nature.

By the way, in an earlier post, you mentioned beatings. No one should ever be beaten, ever. That is wrong and can never be justified…

 

[pathia]

You very first sentence is factually incorrect. Anyone can be innocent. Innocence does not automatically end just because some reaches the age of majority as determined by some civil government.

Next your comment that it is a circular argument does not make logical sense. Homosexual activity is inherently disordered. It is not natural, as nature demonstrates because it is not procreative or post-procreative. Even if someone were “born” that way. That argument for justifying the behavior would also mean that it would be morally wrong to treat people with other birth defects, such as spina bifida, schizophrenia or conjoined twins.

Next your comment that no one has ever apoken to you about hope and only condemned you to hell because you suffer from SSA is patently false. I have seen other threads where you have posted and most people, though there are certainly exceptions, treated you with kindness and respect.

It seems to me that you do not want to actually hear what people say but rather want to scold those who state that acting out homosexual compulsions is sinful, wrong and injures (spiritually and possibly physically) those who engage in it.

I would add that acting heterosexual compulsions outside of marriage is also sinful and harms (at least spiritually) those who engage in it. wrong and legitimate marriage is between one and and one woman. The bible repeated makes that these three points clear.

God calls all people to be chaste, in thought and deed, no matter what their sexual attractions may be.

It is considered objectively disordered by Catholics and most Christians. There are reasons for homosexuality in the wild, and in primates, which we are derived from. It is likely a holdover from that, and from social tribe binding. Homosexuality in animals, particularly social tribal based ones is rampant, because it makes for more social bonds than simple heterosexual ones.

Chimps/Bonobos, elephants and all cetaceans that work together in groups have extensive examples of homosexual conduct that is involved in social bonding. It is also incredibly useful to focus on raising the best offspring possible. In the wild homosexual animals will often stay with their brothers and sisters, assisting with raising their nieces or help raise a new batch of young from their parent’s. Their sibling.niece/nephew’s genes partially their own, so it is still evolutionarily viable for them to assist.

It is not ‘useless’ in nature. You can say that humans shouldn’t conduct it, but the only way you get that, is from holy scriptures.

I am not speaking of this forum, I am speaking of everywhere, in reality, in daily life. In what I get through PM and the hate and bile that spew over the various IM clients as I have those listed in my profile. You wouldn’t believe the hate and vitriol I get from anonymous people from this forum, outside of this forum. They speak of things I’ve only ever posted here, so they obviously had to come from here.

I am also speaking of people that are NOT christian, I barely consider myself one because of how I am treated, again not by people on this forum, but in the real world away from the keyboard. Things are completely different there. We cannot and should not force our values on them. I know we do, because I have it forced down my throat every day at work, I have to bite my tongue constantly, lest I get fired AGAIN for being different.

 

[Telemachus]

I think it is for three reasons. The first is that there is a serious movement to normalize or rationalize the agenda as being equivilent to any heterosexual marriage. Naturally, there is some pushback from that in an effort to reject the agenda.

That’s what I was trying to emphasize in my last post also. The one phrase that I hate hearing is “It’s not hurting you, so why do you care,” or worded more generally “It’s none of your business.” I would have to agree if the following were true: it was kept as purely private business. I, personally, object to sodomy laws because I don’t believe that a public government has the right to invade someone’s home and jail them for “perverted acts.” BUT (and this is key, so pay attention), homosexuality has been made into a public issue by vocal homosexuals who are demanding normalization of their lifestyle under the terms of legal marriage.

By the way, in an earlier post, you mentioned beatings. No one should ever be beaten, ever. That is wrong and can never be justified…

This is another thing I have a problem with. Whenever a Catholic or a Christian sticks to their guns, the “anti-homosexual violence” card usually gets played to shut us up. It’s like equating state’s-rights arguments to the anti-desegregation movement: state’s-rights arguments are perfectly justifiable philosophically and constitutionally, but racism is always wrong, isn’t it? But because of political-correctness, no one can ever argue against huge incursions of the Federal Government into matters which are best left to State-level decisions… might I add, to our infinite detriment.

I have never once been given a bible and said ‘please read this’ etc.

If you’re speaking with Catholics, I am not surprised. Catholics tend to use logic and reason, and reference history, physiology, psychology, science, etc. before they jump to a Bible reference, especially for those who do not respect the Bible as a legitimate source of God’s Revelation. However, that doesn’t stop folks like you from saying “Oh yeah, well that’s not in the Bible, now is it you cocky Catholic?”

Cheers and God Bless,
Telemachus

 

[rpp]

It is considered objectively disordered by Catholics and most Christians. There are reasons for homosexuality in the wild, and in primates, which we are derived from. It is likely a holdover from that, and from social tribe binding. Homosexuality in animals, particularly social tribal based ones is rampant, because it makes for more social bonds than simple heterosexual ones.

Chimps/Bonobos, elephants and all cetaceans that work together in groups have extensive examples of homosexual conduct that is involved in social bonding. It is also incredibly useful to focus on raising the best offspring possible. In the wild homosexual animals will often stay with their brothers and sisters, assisting with raising their nieces or help raise a new batch of young from their parent’s. Their sibling.niece/nephew’s genes partially their own, so it is still evolutionarily viable for them to assist.

It is not ‘useless’ in nature. You can say that humans shouldn’t conduct it, but the only way you get that, is from holy scriptures.

I am not speaking of this forum, I am speaking of everywhere, in reality, in daily life. In what I get through PM and the hate and bile that spew over the various IM clients as I have those listed in my profile. You wouldn’t believe the hate and vitriol I get from anonymous people from this forum, outside of this forum. They speak of things I’ve only ever posted here, so they obviously had to come from here.

I am also speaking of people that are NOT christian, I barely consider myself one because of how I am treated, again not by people on this forum, but in the real world away from the keyboard. Things are completely different there. We cannot and should not force our values on them. I know we do, because I have it forced down my throat every day at work, I have to bite my tongue constantly, lest I get fired AGAIN for being different.

You can attempt to list all the so-called evidence as it sexual deviance being “natural”. Nothing matters.

Chimpanzee also kill each other and have “wars” as do many other species of animals. Does that mean it is okay for me to kill me neighbor because I think his wife is pretty? Dogs eat the feces of other animals, does that mean you should? Of course not. So stop playing the “well animals do it” argument, it is silly and frankly stupid.

What you want is to be told you are normal and that what you do is fine. Murders want to be told the same thing. So do thieves.

The fact is that no amount of justification or excuses or examples, most of which are fiction anyway, from the animal kingdom matter.

If you do not want to submit to what God has always taught, that is your choice. And all choices have consequences. Some of these consequences are good, and some are bad. I think not even making an attempt to follow God’s Law, or worse, trying to twist God;s Law into saying the opposite as to what It really does say, probably falls into the later category.

Yet, unrepentant sexual deviants will never be convinced by logic. In the same way, an alcoholic will not be convinced by logic to quit drinking. The only reason why people are able to recover from alcoholism or drug addiction is that the medical community after many decades, realized that there was such a thing as addictive disorders and decided to develop treatments.

Every person who suffers from the various forms of sexual deviancy should feel betrayed that the medical community abandoned them. But then, it is probably because pharmaceutical companies did not develop drugs and make billions of dollars. Believe me, if some pharmaceutical researcher came up with a drug-based therepy for sexual deviance, the APA would still consider sexual deviance the mental disorder it really is. And the drug companies would be billions of dollars richer. Homosexuals were betrayed because of no one could make money off of them.

I am leaving this thread. There is no point in talking to walls.