Homosexuality in geneology?

[SilentKnight]

The harm and corruption only exists for those that believe it is harmful and corrupting.

Just as gravity only exists and has an effect on us for those who believe it does? (Sorry. Witty retort required.)

That is a circular argument. It makes sense to you, because you have a belief structure to lean on, however for the agnostic/atheist homosexual it means absolutely nothing.

See, I don’t agree with that assessment because everyone has a conscience. And while some consciences are “shaped differently” than others (which simply means that some are - religious instruction aside - naturally more sensitive to some aspects of morality than others), conscience is there in everyone. Murder, to an atheist, really shouldn’t be that big a deal. Theft definitely shouldn’t be anything. Lying - a standard part of existence that draws with it no shame. And yet, such is never the case. Atheists still live by their consciences, if not by religious instruction and, thus, to suggest that an admonishment to them against disordered behavior “means nothing” is simply not true.

There may be plenty who will take this admonishment, weight it against their own experience and then go ahead and decide to summarily use it as toilet paper. But not all. Some are well aware of the disordered nature of their behavior. They just don’t think there are any resources available to them to help them do anything about it. (Some don’t think that they* should *do anything about it because the din of those who would subvert the natural order for the sake of their passions is loud enough that they think homosexuality is normal - in spite of their conscience telling them otherwise. See rpp’s post.)

If you wish to ‘cure’ a homosexual you should focus on converting them to your beliefs FIRST, then go after their lifestyle, not vice versa.

Perhaps that would be a more effective “strategy”. I don’t know. My concern in posting in this thread had nothing to do with “strategy”, only perceptions.

We freely let people drink alcohol, yet it can lead to destructive behavior. If we treated homosexuality the same as alcohol, everyone would have to abstain from alcohol completely, forever.

Apples and oranges. Drinking alcohol is not intrinsically disordered. Homosexual activity is intrinsically destructive.

Peace,

SK

 

[SilentKnight]

…Yet, unrepentant sexual deviants will never be convinced by logic. In the same way, an alcoholic will not be convinced by logic to quit drinking. The only reason why people are able to recover from alcoholism or drug addiction is that the medical community after many decades, realized that there was such a thing as addictive disorders and decided to develop treatments.

Every person who suffers from the various forms of sexual deviancy should feel betrayed that the medical community abandoned them. But then, it is probably because pharmaceutical companies did not develop drugs and make billions of dollars. Believe me, if some pharmaceutical researcher came up with a drug-based therepy for sexual deviance, the APA would still consider sexual deviance the mental disorder it really is. And the drug companies would be billions of dollars richer. Homosexuals were betrayed because of no one could make money off of them.

Hello!!



SK

 

[climer97007]

Even though there may not be any full blown scientific evidence that one can be born homosexual, there is no right to discard the idea.

And it’s plain obvious today that many people ARE born gay. There are many individuals who have stated that they were gay from as soon as they started being attracted to others. And other individuals clearly state they have always felt as if they were in the wrong body.

But yes, people can also gradually become gay through upbringing, environment and choice as thistle posted.

I don’t think it is “plain and obvious”, though it has been demonstrated through DNA testing that some men and some women have both male and female DNA. Such a scientific reality is anything but plain and simple.

Birth defects due to the drugs that mothers were given in the 1950’s resulted in babies being born without arms or legs. This implies that while this relaity is true, that it was not God’s plan for them to be born this way. It was the unwitting consequence of a medication’s side effects, and an unspeakable consequence that reaches far beyond the plain and obvious into the realm of the very complex…

So, I think there might be room for an over simplificaiton on your part. You may be confusing two very different things, here. There are many well documented cases where people were born as the result of surviving the death of a twin shortly after conception. In some of these cases, the dead twin’s DNA was somehow intermingled genetically with the surviving twin.

I have read of several scientifically proven cases of this. Subsequent DNA testing has confirmed that some people are composed of multiple (Two) sets of DNA. They have both male and a female organs, male and female patches of skin, etc… when their DNA is tested.

There was a case not long ago where a mother’s child was taken away from her because her DNA did not match the DNA of her child. Later, she found out that she was just such a case, and that she had DNA from two people within herself. Some such births actually have both sets of genitalia. Such a person has every right to be confused as they grow up. Even so, this is not the rule that defines the normal case for modern day gays and lesbians.

Most, if not all gay/lesbian people that I am aware of, and particularly those of prominence in Hollywood, have lived through torturous, often sexually abusive childhoods of some kind or another.

You wonder why Ellen is the way she is? Listen to her talk about her childhood. Same thing with Rosie. This is more the normal case for today’s Gay and Lesbian population. It speaks volumes to our need of a savior, of our need for healing. of our need a relationship with Christ.

Some people may well be born with a right to feel sexually confused; I am speaking of the documented cases of DNA confusion; while other (most) cases seem more a result of their upbringing, or downbringing, as the case may well be.

Gene

 

[patilu]

I don’t believe that Homosexuality is right but I do believe that some people are born that way and if all of you had a son who from the age of 18 months wanted to wear ladies high helled shoes, carry ladies purses and wear ladies hats you would feel different about this. He always wanted to play with little girls and little girl toys even though I had no little girls but two other boys who are normal. So you see it could not have been his enviroment or the way he was raised. I had to watch as other children and adults did not understand him or his ways and he was scorned my some of these so called religious people who are suppose to love thy neighbor… My son had a lot of ups and downs in his life and I know that he would not have chose this life. He is now 50 years old and living a celibate life. He attends mass and receives the sacarments. I later had two daughter and another son. So I raised four sons and two daughters and only one is gay. This son is the most sinsitive, thoughtful and careing person that I have ever known. I thank God every day that he has blessed me with him. Maybe some of you should have to walk in his shoes.
Let not any of you judge lest you be judged yourself.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I was wondering if there is an statistic from the old world(before Christ and after) on gay population. we could compare with today to see if it was the same then and today.

I remember reading on the Bible cant remember where(OT) about this. God would punish the nations with the sin of man lying with man and women laying with women.

:knight1: :knight2:

 

[mysearch]

First of all lets remember that gay people are still children of God.
We have one gay son out of 5 sons. Two sons are alcoholic and their personal lives are a mess, but our gay son is hardworking, kind to his parents and drinks in moderation. He and his partner do not march or wear weird clothing. They live a low profile and have good professional jobs.
This son has always been a little “different” since he was a baby. We sorta joked about it as he was growing up. Little did we know. As far as we know he has never been molested. Nevertheless, we pray for him as we pray for all our sons.
Another mother who has a lesbian daughter says the same. She was a little different from the beginning as the other daughters.
So, lets be kind to those we know and pray for them.
After all, there are “straight” people that are abusers, pedophiles, rapists, murderers that do more harm than most gays.
Even psychologists differ on homosexuality so lets be kind, polite and if you know a gay person, pray for them.

 

[climer97007]

I don’t believe that Homosexuality is right but I do believe that some people are born that way and if all of you had a son who from the age of 18 months wanted to wear ladies high helled shoes, carry ladies purses and wear ladies hats you would feel different about this.

Let not any of you judge lest you be judged yourself.

I can only attempt to sympathize with any parent who has a gay child. The desire to defend their child, to defend themselves, as they are both often attacked in society.

Even so, to say that a person is born gay is like saying that a certain man was born a murderer. I have a grandson who certainly has the capacity to kill people. He is only 7 years old.

He has struggled with his temper since he was old enough to express himself. Yet, I could never say that he was born a violent person, or that he was a born fighter, or a born ax murderer. Sure, he had this challenge in his life from day one. However, he was also born with a choice to make, and a discipline to learn, and a different self to master than others.

His challenge in life is also his gift on the flip side. You might see that reflected in your own son, the idea that he is the most sensitive person you know. That is the gift. With that gift comes a challenge on the flip side, a challenge that he can overcome with the help of Christ.

Now, if I or my grandson’s parents decided that he was just born this way, that violence was his nature, that he had no control over it, then I would fully expect our assertion about him to become his reality, because none of us would be working with him to help him identify his weakness and to deal with it constructively.

So, the end result also depends to some degree on our interpretation of his reality. If we assume that he was “just born that way”, that he can do nothing about it, that he has no choices to make of his own, then we are building him an environment that forms him as a violent person. If we challange him on his behavior, and offer him a different point of view, a different moral standard, a series of steps to take or reject, a series of other perspectives to embrace or reject, a new challenging set of choices to consider, then we are building him an enviroment that forms him as a person who is responsible to control himself.

This to me, is the substance of the “born that way” versus the “environmental factors” arguments. One point of view says it is all in the DNA, there are no choices, you are born that way. Another extreme rejects DNA as a factor, and says it is all in how you are raised, while a third point of view sees beyond the other two extremes to the hidden reality of his soul as it exists and was formed in the mind of God.

Gene

 

[stanko]

Leviticus, Cooncerning homosexuality,God definitely forbids the
action;“If any man lies with another man as with a woman,both have committed an abomination;let them be put to DEATH; their blood be upon them.”(lev.20) Therefore,God wants them dead.
Why doesn’t someone in authority obey,God in this serious matter?
Stanko

 

[climer97007]

Leviticus, Cooncerning homosexuality,God definitely forbids the
action;“If any man lies with another man as with a woman,both have committed an abomination;let them be put to DEATH; their blood be upon them.”(lev.20) Therefore,God wants them dead.
Why doesn’t someone in authority obey,God in this serious matter?
Stanko

God wants them dead? God surely loves even His enemies, and does not want hate or death for them. God surely wants/desires love and life for all of His creatures. So, what is missing in the analysis?

What is missing is the perfect point of view of God. God knows whether such a person has already killed themselves. God does not want death for them, but, can only see what reality they have already chosen for themselves.

This is very much like my last post. God’s reality is very often not what it appears to us to be.

Gene

 

[Irish_hobo]

The USCCB has spoken very clearly on this issue.

There seems to be no single cause of a homosexual orientation. A common opinion of experts is that there are multiple factors—genetic, hormonal, psychological—that may give rise to it. ** Generally, homosexual orientation is experienced as a given, not as something freely chosen. By itself, therefore, a homosexual orientation cannot be considered sinful, for morality presumes the freedom to choose.**

-“Always Our Children: A Pastoral Message to Parents of Homosexual Children”, Bishops’ Committee on Marriage and Family, USCCB

Full Text: here

I think many of the people who have posted on this subject need to remember that there is a HUGE difference between people who identify themselves as “gay” meaning that they are attracted to same-sex individuals, and those who identify themselves as “gay” meaning that they actively participate in homosexual acts. The Church teaches that a person does NOT sin by experiencing same-sex attraction - that is a temptation like the temptations each of us undergo on a daily basis, and like the temptations Christ himself experienced. We sin only if we yield to those temptations.

As Catholics who are called to love every person the way that Christ loves us, we need to be very careful to draw that distinction. Many of the posters on this thread have made callous, negative statements about “homosexuals” or “gays” without clarifying whether they are talking about people with same-sex attraction or people who participate in homosexual activity. While it is certainly right in the eyes of the Church to condemn homosexual activity (while remembering to love the sinner while hating only the sin), condemning or dismissing persons with same-sex attraction is certainly wrong. Many homosexuals today are fighting and winning a noble battle against great temptation, and they should be honored and not shunned for their efforts.

The Church clearly teaches that homosexual orientation is not usually something the individual has any choice in, and that experiencing that temptation without submitting to it is not in any way sinful. Let’s not be “Cafeteria Catholics” about this.

 

[Qui_Chang]

Whether it’s possible to be “born gay” or not - it doesn’t matter. I was born heterosexual but I am not acting in Faith if I am intimate with another outside of marriage. So, it is not about being ‘gay’ or being ‘straight’. It is about surrendering to the One who is asking us to behave in a certain manner. It doesn’t matter if it seems unfair or if we cannot understand why. All that matters is how we answer the question that Jesus asks us every day - Are you going to leave me too?

We need to be like St. Peter who didn’t understand many of Jesus’ teachings. He simply responded - Lord, where will we go? Only you have the words of eternal Life.

Don’t focus on being gay or straight. Focus on being Catholic.

Surrender and choose Jesus.

Qui Chang

 

[KarinN]

Hi Folks!

To me its so obvious why Christians seem to be so hostile towards gay people: The fact that gay people are probably BORN that way is a tremendous attack against their whole world view and their whole belief-system.
Because if Gays really are that way because of their genes this would mean its not their fault being gay and therefore they’d be condemned from the beginning of their life without ever having had a REAL CHANCE to CHOOSE their likes and dislikes. To be judged for sth. which is TOTALLY out of someone’s control would greatly contradict their belief in a fair God.

For those of you who think all gays are able to become straight if they really want it bad enough : Just imagine how it would be the other way around:
Imagine a world in which it would be normal to be gay and abnormal to be straight.
Would you consider yourself as being able and strong enough to make yourself liking the same sex which is considered as “normal” in this world? Yes? Well then Congratulations!!

(Just a thought beside: Wouldnt the fact that you dont exclude the possibility for yourself of being able to become gay whenever you really want (instead of excluding it from the beginning) show that theres something “gay-ish” inside of you? :bigyikes: :getholy: )

Would you be able to never have Sex from the BEGINNING until the END of your life if you can’t make yourself desiring the same sex and meanwhile the Bible at the same time would say “sexual actions between opposite sexes are put to death” ?

Surely,some of you would be able to do that,and thats great. But thats not the point.My goal was to evoke more empathy with these questions because some of you seem to have a really judgemental attitude.We shouldnt forget judging is not our job but Gods and his alone so we should humble ourselves before God does by reconsidering our answers more and also by answering more slowly and carefully

Best wishes

 

[SilentKnight]

Time to take stock…

Ok, so, to sum up as the wash machine tumbler goes round and round and round again across the same threshold…

Does anybody DISAGREE that homosexually oriented people should be treated with the same degree of respect and charity that all other people should be?

Does anyone DISAGREE that a homosexual orientation, in and of itself, is not sinful (to the extent that the person has done nothing to instill it in themselves)?

Does anyone DISAGREE that it does not matter whether one is gay or straight, all are called to live chastely?

Therefore, does anyone DISAGREE that, born that way because of genetic hardwiring or transformed that way by an abusive or neglectful upbringing, homosexually oriented persons are called to live celibate lives (unless and until they can be healed of their orientation, which seems to be the case in some situations and not in others) in accordance with the Church’s teaching that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered?

SK

 

[johnnydigit]

No one is born gay. That is the left promoting their agenda. They try to create a parallel to being born Black or Asian. A person may be born who has a proclivity to a certain behavior. But, behaviors are controllable unlike the color of one’s skin.

I wonder if Jeffrey Dahmer had a gene that made him a mass murderer. Or if Hitler had a gene that made him hate Jews.

who is credited with this one “gay gene” anyways? i doubt it was a scientist or mildly educated person hah. yet somehow, it became popular.

how about a “snowboarding” or “rich” gene, that would be awesome!

 

[johnnydigit]

This is something I’ve always wondered: If it was determined that same sex attraction is biological or genetic or whatever, and at the same time figured out a way to fix it, how would that be received by active homosexuals? Yes, they were “born that way”, but so are people w/ down syndrome and others w/ mental retardation, as well as some blind and deaf folks, hemophiliacs, etc. Even pedophiles can say the same thing. If we had cures for all these conditions, people would be lining up for them. Since homosexuals claim they would change if they could, as their lives are so terrible, would they really? That would answer the “choice” question once and for all. Unfortunately, this isn’t likely to happen in my lifetime, if at all.

In Christ,

Ellen

reminds me of a show on EWTN called “The Carpenter’s Workshop”. it taught male values in the image of St. Joseph and Jesus, and one time had a show on how to raise your son up with values so he is less inclined to be homosexual, even if he was born with the disposition, e.g. instilling the proper role of the male, and avoiding the gay culture of today. i was shocked that they would have the courage to air it, but also proud and found it made a lot of sense.

with that said, it seems unlikely that many active gays of today would even make it past the first minute of the show, much less agree with ideas from Theology of the Body that may seem “sexist” or “repressive”. i guess there’s too much pride nowadays to even want to try and curb it…

 

[Abbot_Mark_OSB]

I personally believe that Homsexuality is both genetical and behavioural. That does not make it right. If I were genetically prone to murder, and behaviourally conditioned towards it, no one would suggest that I should be actively encouraged to commit murder.
The problem is that we Catholics come across as being hateful and hating, so often. So we need to find compassionate ways of presenting our life-giving doctrine, for we really do have a glorious magisterium, which speaks with the authority of Christ.
As Catholics, our approach to homsexuality is clear, though not always easy to put into practice. We have a hard-edged doctrine, but a compassionate pastoral practice - both of these are essential if we are to win souls for God.
The Church teaches us that same sex genital activity is wrong, just as hetero sex outside marriage is wrong, because it is using a good thing for a wrong purpose. Sex must always be within a consecrated relationship, and always open to the possibility of children - because that is how God set it up. If we believe that the Church truly speaks with the authority of Christ, then it truly teaches also in this area too.
But we must also be very careful to avoid any notion of our being superior to other people who disagree with us, and very careful to treat all people, no matter who they may be, with loving kindness. For it is possible to be sexually pure, and yet full of even worse sins of pride, and self will, and loathing of other human beings.
Jesus’ compassion for the woman taken in adultery (an undoubted sin) should also extend to people whose sexual orientation does not fall within the parameters set by the Church.

 

[Dameedna]

No one is born gay. That is the left promoting their agenda. They try to create a parallel to being born Black or Asian. A person may be born who has a proclivity to a certain behavior. But, behaviors are controllable unlike the color of one’s skin.

If you believe that being Gay is a choice, then you must admit that being heterosexual is a hoice.

So, do you desire or lust after those that are of the same gender as you?

No?

Do your friends know you are attracted to them, but have chosen not to foist your lust or desire for them onto their person? Do they know how hard it is for you, to desire them, but turn away? Do they respect you for refusing to flirt with them even though you really would like to?

I suspect, your heterosexual nature…is not a choice, but thankfully for you…your genetics fell on the most common side of the pile. You are straight.

Now…come across a gay person , who also claims they had no choice in the matter and you are calling them a liar. You are claiming they are “CHOOSING” their sexual identity.

You CANNOT have it both way’s…it cannot be a choice for THEM…and not a choice for you.

What if they aren’t choosing it? What if their sexual oreintation , was no descion they made, anymore than yours is? You didn’t CHOOSE to be straight you ARE straight. Be bloody grateful of that. What if, you were born with a desire to bed a person, who had the same physical make-up as you, and you didn’t even know why this was happening? What if some societies wanted to kill you for it, for the more liberal societies, they wanted you to spend a miserable life pretending it never happened?

Either admit you desire both genders, or admit…you had no say in it, and that it is therefore not a choice for either gay’s or straights.

I would LOVE to hear all the heterosexuals here admit, they desire a person of the same gender, but chose not to do it.

The thought probably revolts you…and yet you still think you’ve made a choice.

Shame on you, for the lies you tell yourselves.

 

[Dameedna]

So, it is not about being ‘gay’ or being ‘straight’. It is about surrendering to the One who is asking us to behave in a certain manner. It doesn’t matter if it seems unfair or if we cannot understand why. All that matters is how we answer the question that Jesus asks us every day - Are you going to leave me too?

There is a reason that this debate rages so furiously, and that is because it does matter.

Most of us dont’ want to hurt another human. The question is not wether we accept ‘bad’ things, simply because some-one wants them. IE we don’t accept the abuse of a child , because an adults wants to do it.

The problem is, that homosexual behaviour, between two adults hurts no-one, is determined by their biology and a person is forced to believe in a god that does this, then condems the person to a life of solitude by saying no to their naturally born desires.

It is very serious, because it brings into question how much we truly know, or understand about God…and wether or not we have been wrong.

Just like evolution which equates to no “fall” into sin, it shakes the foundation of christianity.

If God allowed people to be born Gay, why would he then condem them? Did we get God wrong in this? how much else did we get wrong? How do we know we were right…good grief is ANY of it correct?

Most would rather believe in a cruel God, and will in turn become cruel themselves, before they question the validity of what they have been taught.

 

[cargau]

If you believe that being Gay is a choice, then you must admit that being heterosexual is a hoice.

Shame on you, for the lies you tell yourselves.

First, let me say that being gay must be a difficult burden. And, indeed, I am thankful I never had to carry that cross.

Picking sexual orientation is not like going to the ice cream store and picking out a favorite flavor. Heterosexuality is naturally ordered and thus requires no conscious decision. I don’t spend a lot of time, for example, trying to decide not to have sex outside of my marriage, either.

If a person “chose” to take his own life, he would require some deliberation on the prospect of making that choice. The antithesis is not conciously dwelling on the choice to live since to do so is naturally ordered.

If life were the 50, 60, 70, 80 + years we have on this earth, I would not engage in any of these conversations. But, eternity is forever. My sense of compassion falls not on judging you or making myself better than you (because, I am not) but in helping you find your way into the glory of heaven. There in lies the meaning of life…

 

[anoynted1]

***We are all called to rise up and live a holy life pleasing to God. ***
This says it all right here. I have empathy for anyone that’s struggling w/any behavior that is contrary to the Will of God.
But we make a choice to live holy.
Scipture says that men love darkness more than light because their deeds are evil.
If I want to please God, I must choose holiness.