Homosexuality is a Sin

[Pete2]

Reepicheep:

A temptation is not a sin.

Exactly. Why should anyone be excluded from serving God simply because they are tempted? Everyone is tempted by Satan every single day.

I think that Satan is using the “homosexuality issue” as a way to further his real agenda: Pride. So many people are caught up in judging homosexuals that they don’t even realize they are committing the sin of Pride, bigtime.

God helps us all fight our temptations and become more like Christ, and homosexuals are no exception. It’s not Christian for us to call out homosexuals and push them away from God… that’s Satan’s job. Do you want to do Satan’s job?

Pete

 

[Apostle_X]

–So is celibacy - but it is an obligation for some. It is in accord with human nature to wish to exercise one’s sexual faculties, & priests have to forgo that. They still have bodies - they don’t become angels. –

Gottle of Geer, celibacy is not unnatural, it is self control. Acting upon one’s sexual desires isn’t a must-do in life. Understand that some people are called to celibacy and others are called to populate the earth. No one, however, is called to be a homosexual. You cannot compare celibacy to homosexuality…that’s ridiculous!

 

[Apostle_X]

Get me straight, if someone has homosexual thoughts or desires, he should try to fight them; I don’t know how hard they are to conquer, but it can’t be that hard. If someone doesn’t try to overcome those desires, it’s a sin. Also, if he tries to hide them or put them aside, it’s a sin. Homosexuals are living lives of sin, even if they don’t act upon their unnatural desires.

 

[Pete2]

Apostle X:

Homosexuals are living lives of sin, even if they don’t act upon their unnatural desires.

Apostle X, have you ever been tempted to lie to someone, but instead told the truth because you knew it was the right thing to do?

Pete

 

[paramedicgirl]

Be thankful if you don’t live in Canada. Gay marriages were made legal this June by our depraved Liberal government. Now the public schools will be openly cramming this option down our children’s throats in their curriculum on sex education. Home-schooling numbers in Canada will most likely sky rocket.

I know of several women who have been indoctrinated with feminist, lesbian philosophy when they went to university in Ontario to take Women’s Studies. Now they are lesbian.

I know another young women who went to counselling after being raped in Vancouver. She told me she quit going because the counsellors were all “man-hating lesbians” who tried unsuccessfully to poison her with their mentality.

It’s obvious from these stories that lesbian women seek these professions, where they can indoctrinate vulnerable, naive young women.

We have our work cut out for us, to keep our children away from these corrupt and morally degenerate people who are degrading our children’s moral standards to suit their own particular agenda.

 

[fix]

Gottle of Geer:

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible.

• This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity.
• Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.
• 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

That much I agree with.

That is going well beyond the text; other mentions of Sodom in the Bible almost always mention other things, such as oppression - not same sex activity. Isaiah 1 is an example: from his text, one could conclude that the Sodomites today include the people who harrass homosexuals (as well as others). OTOH: to take Genesis 19 as talking about gang-rape in order to humiliate strangers, suits the context, near and remote, rather neatly.​

Let us be fair and accurate:

In Genesis 3, we find that this truth about persons being an image of God has been obscured by original sin. There inevitably follows a loss of awareness of the covenantal character of the union these persons had with God and with each other. The human body retains its “spousal significance” but this is now clouded by sin. Thus, in Genesis 19:1-11, the deterioration due to sin continues in the story of the men of Sodom. There can be no doubt of the moral judgement made there against homosexual relations.

In Leviticus 18:22 and 20:13, in the course of describing the conditions necessary for belonging to the Chosen People, the author excludes from the People of God those who behave in a homosexual fashion.

Against the background of this exposition of theocratic law, an eschatological perspective is developed by St. Paul when, in I Cor 6:9, he proposes the same doctrine and lists those who behave in a homosexual fashion among those who shall not enter the Kingdom of God.

      In Romans 1:18-32, still building on the moral traditions of his forebears, but in the new context of the confrontation between Christianity and the pagan society of his day, Paul uses homosexual behaviour as an example of the blindness which has overcome humankind. Instead of the original harmony between Creator and creatures, the acute distortion of idolatry has led to all kinds of moral excess. Paul is at a loss to find a clearer example of this disharmony than homosexual relations. Finally, 1 Tim. 1, in full continuity with the Biblical position, singles out those who spread wrong doctrine and in v. 10 explicitly names as sinners those who engage in homosexual acts.[vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html](http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html)

 

[Jerome42]

Pete2 is on the right track. Satan has an agenda. By slowly infecting our society and the various forms of media we failed to see the real significance of what was happening around us.

First, under the guise of protest against the war in the sixties the devil has spawned various rights movemonts such as the right to free love, the right to do what you want with your body (abortion), the right to be who you are(“everybody out of the closet now”).

Next, the Church had its problems too. Priests and Religious were being dispensed from their vows. Married couples were seeking and getting divorces. The family structure was disintegrating.

When Vatican II came around many liberal elements felt it didn’t go far enough. Fortunately John Paul II recognized what was happening and he began issuing his many encyclicals in an attempt to get us on the right course again.

We need to pray for our clergy. They are on the front lines in this war against evil.

 

[Contarini]

misterX:

what do you mean that some homosexuals do not commit immoral actions? The very fact that they are homosexual means they are commiting a immoral act.

What as the V.C 2 done to you people? if you think hommosexuality isn’t imoral go join a protestant church.

Perhaps we should define what it means to be “homosexual.” How is the fact that a person is sexually drawn toward men rather than women committing an act of any kind? Acts have to be acts of the will!

Certainly homosexual desires are one manifestation of Original Sin. But the Council of Trent condemned the Protestant view that the concupiscence remaining in the baptized is properly speaking sinful. The Council did not make an exception for certain forms of concupiscence.

So actually you are the one who should join a Protestant church. You are flatly contradicting the Council of Trent by saying that involuntary sexual attraction is sinful in a baptized Christian.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Apostle X:

It is not human nature to be gay.

Not unfallen human nature, no. But in case you haven’t noticed, we are fallen. We have concupiscence. In some people, this takes the form of same-sex attraction.

People who say that they were born gay are outright lying. No one is born gay; we are all born straight.

On what do you base this extraordinary statement?
If you are saying that no one is born gay because homosexuality is sinful, then you are guilty of the Pelagian heresy. We are all fallen creatures with various sinful desires. But our original sin, according to Catholic theology, is forgiven in baptism, and the remaining concupiscence is not strictly speaking sinful. This was dogmatically defined by the Council of Trent.

Edwin

 

[Apostle_X]

No, I am not preaching Pelagianism. Let me concede a few points, as I realize that my debating points are somewhat off.

A person is not a homosexual if they feel homosexual temptations, because one cannot control what temptations are thrown at them (they can keep away from certain situations, but sometimes not be able to avoid mental temptations). A person is also not a homosexual if they get these temptations (from Satan, not self-induced [pornography, visual stimulation, etc]) and try to fight them. However, a person is a homosexual if they enjoy the temptations and, in a way, welcome them into their minds without fighting them (the same goes for a person who acts upon these same temptations).

So, as I have just stated, temptations do not make a person gay, but the acceptance of the temptations does. We are not supposed to accept sin and temptation, we are supposed to fight them. We were created perfect and have fallen, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t strive for perfection with the help of Christ.

 

[Pete2]

Apostle X:

No, I am not preaching Pelagianism. Let me concede a few points, as I realize that my debating points are somewhat off.

A person is not a homosexual if they feel homosexual temptations, because one cannot control what temptations are thrown at them (they can keep away from certain situations, but sometimes not be able to avoid mental temptations). A person is also not a homosexual if they get these temptations (from Satan, not self-induced [pornography, visual stimulation, etc]) and try to fight them. However, a person is a homosexual if they enjoy the temptations and, in a way, welcome them into their minds without fighting them (the same goes for a person who acts upon these same temptations).

So, as I have just stated, temptations do not make a person gay, but the acceptance of the temptations does. We are not supposed to accept sin and temptation, we are supposed to fight them. We were created perfect and have fallen, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t strive for perfection with the help of Christ.

Apostle X, first, let me say that I very much appreciate this post you’ve made. You are open in your thinking, and that is excellent. I came onto this forum similarly: guns ablaze… and I’ve learned a tremendous amount since then. I still do, and it has been a humbling experience.

Regarding your statements… I agree-- enjoying the temptations, welcoming them into your mind… that is lust. Lust is an offense against chastity, as the Church defined in the CCC.

But what if a priest is dedicated to chastity, as he is called to do? A man who suffers from temptations of same sex attraction, but who does not welcome these lustful thoughts… in fact, does everything to avoid them, and any action associated with those tempatations… is blessed.

We agree that there is no sin in being tempted. So how can the Church justify turning away a chaste man, who has suffered from temptations of same sex attraction, from serving God if so called?

Pete

 

[Contarini]

Apostle X:

However, a person is a homosexual if they enjoy the temptations and, in a way, welcome them into their minds without fighting them (the same goes for a person who acts upon these same temptations).

Exactly. But how (without violating the seal of the confessional) would seminary authorities know that a person was a “homosexual” in this sense?

“Homosexual orientation” in our culture means that a person is drawn to the same sex rather than the opposite sex. This is not morally culpable according to Catholic teaching, as I understand it, but it is a result of the fall and a person so unfortunate as to have such inclinations is obliged not to give in to them.

Do we disagree? If we don’t, then what was your point by saying that “orientation” is sinful. “Giving in to temptations” is not what “orientation” means, except that our secular society can’t fathom the idea of *not *giving in to temptation. As Christians, we need to maintain a clear distinction between “orientation” and act (whether outward or inward–except that sins of thought can’t be discerned and thus aren’t relevant for the seminary issue).

Edwin

 

[LSK]

Apostle X:

, if he tries to hide them or put them aside, it’s a sin. Homosexuals are living lives of sin, even if they don’t act upon their unnatural desires.

This makes absolutely no sense at all - if someone is a homosexual, and he or she decides to turn their life over to Christ and live their life totally for Christ they are living lives of sin simply by their very existence?

Shame on you.:tsktsk:

 

[pgoings]

Being homosexual is a sickness. Acting on the impulses is “contra natura”, thus is a mortal sin.

If we take these premises in their literal sense, they cannot both be true. Mortal sin requires complete consent of the will (CCC, 1859). A person who is inclined to commit homosexual acts because of a sickness (homosexuality) cannot, by definition, give that consent.

Which is it?

 

[Pete2]

pgoings:

If we take these premises in their literal sense, they cannot both be true. Mortal sin requires complete consent of the will (CCC, 1859). A person who is inclined to commit homosexual acts because of a sickness (homosexuality) cannot, by definition, give that consent.

Which is it?

That is an excellent point.

Pete

 

[waxednwaned]

pgoings:

If we take these premises in their literal sense, they cannot both be true. Mortal sin requires complete consent of the will (CCC, 1859). A person who is inclined to commit homosexual acts because of a sickness (homosexuality) cannot, by definition, give that consent.

Which is it?

The homosexual has a twisted mind, in the way that they have ALLOWED THEMSELVES to go beyond the NORM and have “more-evil-than-the-norm” thoughts- they have consented to having a twisted disposition.
A person cannot be tempted beyond their will. If they consent to the temptation- it was by their own will- if they consent to having thoughts that are more deviated, twisted and evil than the norm- they have allowed it.

 

[pgoings]

The homosexual has a twisted mind, in the way that they have ALLOWED THEMSELVES to go beyond the NORM and have “more-evil-than-the-norm” thoughts–they have consented to having a twisted disposition.

Again, if they have done this to themselves it is a voluntary act, and not an illness. If it is an illness (sickness, mental disorder) like schizophrenia or paranoia it is entirely involuntary, and it impedes consent.

 

[LSK]

Chastity and homosexuality

[2357](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2357.htm’) Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. [2359](javascriptpenWindow(‘cr/2359.htm’) Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

---

I must be reading the wrong Catechism because I do not see where it says that Homosexuality itself is a sin. I do, however, see where the act of homosexuality is a sin and I see the manner in which homosexuals are called to live their lives in order to be in communion with God and with the Holy Mother Church. AND I see how WE as Catholic Christians are to behave…at the risk of being the odd woman out on this forum I think I will do my best to follow the teachings of the Holy Mother Church.

 

[Mystophilus]

“2358 …They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.”

… I see how WE as Catholic Christians are to behave…at the risk of being the odd woman out on this forum I think I will do my best to follow the teachings of the Holy Mother Church.

Oh, thank God!!!

You are not the only one here: see also Gottle of Geer’s posts.

 

[Mystophilus]

Pete2:

But what if a priest is dedicated to chastity, as he is called to do? A man who suffers from temptations of same sex attraction, but who does not welcome these lustful thoughts… in fact, does everything to avoid them, and any action associated with those tempatations… is blessed.

We agree that there is no sin in being tempted. So how can the Church justify turning away a chaste man, who has suffered from temptations of same sex attraction, from serving God if so called?

How do they propose to test this?

“Look at this picture of a Brad Pitt in a bathing suit. Does that do anything for you?”