Homosexuality is illogical?

[Flying_Bison]

Often as a Catholic when trying to defend one’s position we are told that we are Bigotted and illogical. I often find that this is simply a ploy to avoid defending an illogical argument for homosexuality.
I would also like to say that I in NO WAY hate or are bigotted against homosexuals, I simply do not agree with their actions. Here are some of the arguments.

1. If you do not approve of the actions of Gay you hate gay people
   This is completely illogical. One can easily disagree with ones actions and not personally hate them. If a parent punishes a child do they hate the child. NO they simply disagree with their actions.

2)You are discriminating against Gays
No, not agreeing with ones actions is not discrimination. Discrimination is intolerance solely based on ones inherent qualities (ex. race, gender, ethnicity, etc.) If this argument were logical it would mean that every black man in Jail for Murder and sentenced by a white judge was the victim of discrimination even if he actually committed the crime. No one can be against ones actions without basing it on their race gender, etc.

3)**But if two peole love each other shouldn’t they be allowed marry and have sex. **
The short answer is sometimes. Not everyone everyone who loves each other should have sex. (Ex. child and parent, sister and brother, Married man and unwed coworker etc.) In the same token, Love does not equal marriage and sex. Love should be part of sex and marriage, but you can love someone without having sex with them or marrying them.

1. **I was born this way and can’t help it, so stop pushing your views on me. **
   No one knows if people are born gay first off, and even if someone is born a certain way and is predisposed to behavior that in no way means that they are obliged to act on it. For example, men born with two YY chromosomes are predisposed to violence, does that mean that we allow them to be violent. Alcoholism has genetic roots, do we allow these people to become drunks because the have an urge to.
2. Gays aren’t hurting anyone
   True having homosexual urges doesn’t hurt anyone, agreed. Promoting Gay lifestyles may. For one, no one knows if homosexuality is genetic, environmental, or both. If it is wholly or in part environmental, promotion of Gay lifestyles can actually entice one to be Gay and thus hurt their chances of reproducing and furthuring the species. Many people will say that the Church is against science and appeal to science to back up a claim, but if this is the case so are proponent of the Gay lifestyle. Being Gay would be completely against any Darwinian theory. So for the time being, since no one is clear on whether homosexuality has an environmental component, shouldn’t we avoid advocating the Gay lifestyle so as not to predispose children to it an thus hurt their chances at having a heterosexual disposition and reproducing.
3. I chose same sex partner and you chose opposite sex partners what is the difference
   Homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationsips are not the same. Heterosexual sex is how nature designed it, and it can also result in procreation. Homosexual sex is unnatural biologically and never can result in procreation. So one act is ordered and one is disordered. They are in no way equivalent. Heterosexual sex is simlpy natural and homosexual relationship is unnatural. They are not equivalent.
4. **But Heterosexuals use contraception, have affairs, use sex only for plearure, etc. **
   So, just because heterosexuals abuse sex does not mean that we should embrace every kind of sexual abuse. People who have heterosexual urges or homosexual urges can both abuse sex. When they do this that means they are both wrong, not both right. So if my neighbor cheats on his wife does that mean that I have the right to do the same thing, of course not. Abuse by one group does not give license for another group to commit abuses.

 

[pathia]

1. **I was born this way and can’t help it, so stop pushing your views on me. **
   No one knows if people are born gay first off, and even if someone is born a certain way and is predisposed to behavior that in no way means that they are obliged to act on it. For example, men born with two YY chromosomes are predisposed to violence, does that mean that we allow them to be violent. Alcoholism has genetic roots, do we allow these people to become drunks because the have an urge to.

Just a general note. A fetus will not develop if it is a YY chromosome only. Any spontaneously abort very early on, if they even reach implantation. I assume you are speaking of XYY’s and violence then. That is a myth, and has been disproven, all of ths tudies that proved this are over forty years old and no longer used.

The Research done on XYY’s in the past was illdone and the assumed prevalence of them in prison was actually the same percentage OUTSIDE of prison too. IE: The genetic makeups of prisoners and non-imprisoned men had the same likelihood of being XYY. It is simply a myth that they are more violent. The only thing that it seems to do, is their average height is a bit more than XY men and some have slight learning disabilities.

pathguy.com/xyy.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XYY_syndrome
guysandstthomas.nhs.uk/resources/PDF/X/XYYprofe.pdf

 

[homeloan]

Often as a Catholic when trying to defend one’s position we are told that we are Bigotted and illogical… I would also like to say that I in NO WAY hate or are bigotted against homosexuals, I simply do not agree with their actions.

Bison, I’m not a homosexual but I’ve known plenty over the years, male and female. Some have been my personal friends, several have been my neighbors.

The majority of those (I’ve known) I’m sure were born that way. In my elementary school many years ago, in the 1st grade, Donald D was as different from the rest of my male classmates as night & day. As we matriculated, his actions revealed he had no attraction to girls and he could spot other boys like him and they would form a bond none of us could understand.

He was born that way. Thus, God made him that way. Who are we to tell God he screwed up?

We can ask why? But my hunch is we’ll get the same answer I’m getting now under my topic “Why Did God Create Such A Violent World?”, the answer being, “…it will all be revealed to you in the sweet bye & bye…”

 

[rlg94086]

Bison, I’m not a homosexual but I’ve known plenty over the years, male and female. Some have been my personal friends, several have been my neighbors.

The majority of those (I’ve known) I’m sure were born that way. In my elementary school many years ago, in the 1st grade, Donald D was as different from the rest of my male classmates as night & day. As we matriculated, his actions revealed he had no attraction to girls and he could spot other boys like him and they would form a bond none of us could understand.

He was born that way. Thus, God made him that way. Who are we to tell God he screwed up?

We can ask why? But my hunch is we’ll get the same answer I’m getting now under my topic “Why Did God Create Such A Violent World?”, the answer being, “…it will all be revealed to you in the sweet bye & bye…”

While it is possible that God made some people with a predisposed attraction to the same sex, it doesn’t follow that he made them to commit sexual sin. We may find that people are born with a predisposition to violence (whether genetic or biologically/chemically caused), but it would not logically follow that we should then decide that such people are allowed to commit violent acts because they were “born that way.”

 

[rpp]

Often as a Catholic when trying to defend one’s position we are told that we are Bigotted and illogical. I often find that this is simply a ploy to avoid defending an illogical argument for homosexuality.
I would also like to say that I in NO WAY hate or are bigotted against homosexuals, I simply do not agree with their actions. Here are some of the arguments.

1. If you do not approve of the actions of Gay you hate gay people
   This is completely illogical. One can easily disagree with ones actions and not personally hate them. If a parent punishes a child do they hate the child. NO they simply disagree with their actions.

2)You are discriminating against Gays
No, not agreeing with ones actions is not discrimination. Discrimination is intolerance solely based on ones inherent qualities (ex. race, gender, ethnicity, etc.) If this argument were logical it would mean that every black man in Jail for Murder and sentenced by a white judge was the victim of discrimination even if he actually committed the crime. No one can be against ones actions without basing it on their race gender, etc.

3)**But if two peole love each other shouldn’t they be allowed marry and have sex. **
The short answer is sometimes. Not everyone everyone who loves each other should have sex. (Ex. child and parent, sister and brother, Married man and unwed coworker etc.) In the same token, Love does not equal marriage and sex. Love should be part of sex and marriage, but you can love someone without having sex with them or marrying them.

1. **I was born this way and can’t help it, so stop pushing your views on me. **
   No one knows if people are born gay first off, and even if someone is born a certain way and is predisposed to behavior that in no way means that they are obliged to act on it. For example, men born with two YY chromosomes are predisposed to violence, does that mean that we allow them to be violent. Alcoholism has genetic roots, do we allow these people to become drunks because the have an urge to.
2. Gays aren’t hurting anyone
   True having homosexual urges doesn’t hurt anyone, agreed. Promoting Gay lifestyles may. For one, no one knows if homosexuality is genetic, environmental, or both. If it is wholly or in part environmental, promotion of Gay lifestyles can actually entice one to be Gay and thus hurt their chances of reproducing and furthuring the species. Many people will say that the Church is against science and appeal to science to back up a claim, but if this is the case so are proponent of the Gay lifestyle. Being Gay would be completely against any Darwinian theory. So for the time being, since no one is clear on whether homosexuality has an environmental component, shouldn’t we avoid advocating the Gay lifestyle so as not to predispose children to it an thus hurt their chances at having a heterosexual disposition and reproducing.
3. I chose same sex partner and you chose opposite sex partners what is the difference
   Homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationsips are not the same. Heterosexual sex is how nature designed it, and it can also result in procreation. Homosexual sex is unnatural biologically and never can result in procreation. So one act is ordered and one is disordered. They are in no way equivalent. Heterosexual sex is simlpy natural and homosexual relationship is unnatural. They are not equivalent.
4. **But Heterosexuals use contraception, have affairs, use sex only for plearure, etc. **
   So, just because heterosexuals abuse sex does not mean that we should embrace every kind of sexual abuse. People who have heterosexual urges or homosexual urges can both abuse sex. When they do this that means they are both wrong, not both right. So if my neighbor cheats on his wife does that mean that I have the right to do the same thing, of course not. Abuse by one group does not give license for another group to commit abuses.

I think you articulate this very well.

 

[homeloan]

While it is possible that God made some people with a predisposed attraction to the same sex, it doesn’t follow that he made them to commit sexual sin… "

Wonder what God had against them, or why He singled them out, when He created them knowing they’d be persecuted and shamed in this violent world, both yesterday and today. He certainly had no tolerance for the population of Sodom as described in Genesis 19. Plus, He showed absolutely no mercy for Lot’s wife. Her great sin: She turned to look at the firey destruction of her hometown. Over the top? You make the call.

Of course God saved Lot and his two daughters. Don’t let you preteens or adolescents read the rest of the story about what those vixens did to their drunken father (Lot). However, two sons were brought forth from those unholy unions, Moab & Benammi.

I wonder if Lot & his daughters are burning in Hell or perhaps suffering in Purgatory?

If any American did what they did, they’d all be in the hoosegow, probably with the key thrown away…

Make’s you wonder…

 

[Flying_Bison]

Well, I apologize about my XYY comments. I learned that in high school, so I guess that I am behind the times. Nevertheless, the point of my objection is not lost. Genetic predisposition is not license to do whatever one wants. Some may be prone to pedophilia, murder, etc, that does not mean that acting upon these predispositions is correct. IT IS NOT THE predisposition that Catholic oppose it is the actions.

Also, the comment about the 1st grader is moot. Maybe your friend was odd at age 6 but in no way does that rule out environment as the cause. You did not know him from age 0-5, and I doubt highly that he engaged in homosexual activity at 6.
Again the issue is not with sexual attraction to those of the same sex, but acting upon them. So, to say that homosexuality is proper because people showed homosexual tendencies as a child is illogical. You must see the difference between ACTIONS and ORIENTATION. Jefferey Dahlmer killed animals as a child, a trait that is associated with antisocial personality disorder. That doesn’t mean that we say he was always predisposed, so he is proper in murdering innocent people. We admit that it is disordered to be a murderer, pedophile, beasteality, because it is unnatural and disordered. By using the same logic that Gay rights advocates give, these should be acceptable.

God created all and loves Gay as much as heterosexual, married people. However, God loves all, but expects certain moral decency from them. All have crosses to bear and I will bet all heterosexual have commited a sexual sin of some sort. The difference is when one begins to say that urges justify behavior how can one defend anything. A Gay feels a need to have homosexual relations and unhappy married man feels the need to use prostitute. So whats wrong. Just because one feels like doing something doen’t make it proper, moral, or just. Actions and Feeling separate.

AND PLEASE I in no way say that Gays are equal to pedophiles, murderers, etc. I only am trying to show that the flawed logic used by Gay rights activists can be used to support these atrocious behaviors.

 

[buffalo]

Epigenetics and upbringing are important contributors to homosexuality.

 

[Scottgun]

The absurdity of the homosexualist (by which I mean anyone who defends homosexual acts) argument is demonstrated by the fact that they are willing to accept dehumanization in order to justify depravity. It’s always the genetics, or animals in the wild do it, so it is ok. See? By their own admission in the first case they are an automaton running an genetic program, and in the other they are an animal. It’s not true of course. But “concupiscence darkens the intellect.”

 

[Flying_Bison]

We can ask why? But my hunch is we’ll get the same answer I’m getting now under my topic “Why Did God Create Such A Violent World?”, the answer being, “…it will all be revealed to you in the sweet bye & bye…”

This is a good point, however, it misrepresents Catholic belief. 1st, Catholic teaching is that all has already been revealed through Jesus Christ. Additionally, God did not create evil and never has or will. He did give human’s free will. So by choosing God’s way, we create love and Goodness. It is when human’s use their free and turn away from God that evil occurs. Evil is the absence of Love of God.

The best analogy I believe is the God as rich prince/pauper analogy. (God/P prince) has all the power in the world, but if he exercised it to force people to love him, he would violate the gift of free will and people would only follow him based on fear and lust for his graces of power. Instead God comes to us as a pauper. He is discrete and lowly appearing. If one love God (pauper) they will love him out of pure love not because he is a powerful prince.

Free will gives one the ability to love God unimaginably, but it also allows us to reject him as well.

So, the hardship of homosexuality, masturbation, infidelity, etc.is in acting on urges not simply having urges. Avoiding unheathy urges and sins allows us to show God our love for him. We can chose to follow our carnal desires and create evil, or bear out hardships without acting on them, thus bringing us closer to God’s love.

 

[buffalo]

The absurdity of the homosexualist (by which I mean anyone who defends homosexual acts) argument is demonstrated by the fact that they are willing to accept dehumanization in order to justify depravity. It’s always the genetics, or animals in the wild do it, so it is ok. See? By their own admission in the first case they are an automaton running an genetic program, and in the other they are an animal. It’s not true of course. But “concupiscence darkens the intellect.”

Not so in the case of epigenetics. SIn and corruption definitely play a part in this. Epigentics would not point the finger at God.

 

[homeloan]

So, the hardship of homosexuality, masturbation, infidelity, etc.is in acting on urges not simply having urges. Avoiding unheathy urges and sins allows us to show God our love for him. We can chose to follow our carnal desires and create evil, or bear out hardships without acting on them, thus bringing us closer to God’s love.

Why did God choose to give us urges that would cause the majority of the humans He created to act upon them, thus proving what God already knew (omniscient) that we’re weak.

If He wouldn’t have let those of us who were too weak to resist (which He would already know in advance), then He wouldn’t have to send us to damnation.

I don’t see how you keep bringing this back to “man’s fault” (or fall, or original sin, etc.).

God chose to set it up this way. And we get blamed for following these powerful urges He gave us. What kind of a deal is that?

 

[rlg94086]

God chose to set it up this way. And we get blamed for following these powerful urges He gave us. What kind of a deal is that?

Why do you think the powerful urge that a homosexually oriented person has is greater than the powerful urges non-homosexuals have to sin? There are many of us out here who are trying to overcome our concupiscence.

From your earlier post:

homeloan:

Wonder what God had against them, or why He singled them out, when He created them knowing they’d be persecuted and shamed in this violent world.

Why assume God has something against them or singled them out? My brother was born with a physical handicap which garners a lot of stares and avoidance. Others are born blind, deaf or with Down’s Syndrome. Do you assume that God has something against them too?

BTW…I think all of those are much more difficult to deal with from a public perception standpoint. If someone with SSA lives a chaste, single life, they will blend in just fine. Try doing that as a blind person or with an obvious physical disability.

 

[homeloan]

Why do you think the powerful urge that a homosexually oriented person has is greater than the powerful urges non-homosexuals have to sin?

I DON’T. BUT THEY’RE SEXUAL URGES NONETHELESS. AND THEY ARE VERY POWERFUL.

there are many of us out here who are trying to overcome our concupiscence.

AMEN!

Why assume God has something against them or singled them out?

BECAUSE THEY’VE GOT A HARD ROE TO HOE…

My brother was born with a physical handicap which garners a lot of stares and avoidance. Others are born blind, deaf or with Down’s Syndrome. Do you assume that God has something against them too?

DITTO…

YEA!!! I FIGURED OUT HOW TO SEPARATE THE TEXT WHEN USING QUOTES. SOOOO COOL!

 

[rlg94086]

I DON’T. BUT THEY’RE SEXUAL URGES NONETHELESS. AND THEY ARE VERY POWERFUL.

AMEN!

BECAUSE THEY’VE GOT A HARD ROE TO HOE…

DITTO…

YEA!!! I FIGURED OUT HOW TO SEPARATE THE TEXT WHEN USING QUOTES. SOOOO COOL!

Yea!! Btw…don’t use all caps…unless you intend to yell all the time.

I don’t blame God for giving me a “hard row to hoe.” I just keep praying for the grace to resist temptations.

 

[brycelaliberte]

Wow, way to go homeloan…

I’m sure of course, though, if this were presented quite seriously, which it could and should be, you’ll just get called bigot, or homophobic, or prejudiced, or etc.

Here’s my take to these responses;

You’re just a bigot!

Yeah, I’m racist too. Those white people just weren’t meant to live, you know? (I’m white)

You’re just homophobic!

Actually, I’m not. I have nothing to fear from homosexuals. Although when they do gather in large crowds carrying guns, I would be scared, but I think that’s because guns are rather scary.

You’re just prejudiced!

Pshaw, of course I am. How else would I know I’m right?

Really, I’ve found you can’t even talk seriously anymore to people who resort to name calling tactics.

 

[homeloan]

Yea!! Btw…don’t use all caps…unless you intend to yell all the time.

Absolutely. Yours was my first effort. Sorry!

I don’t blame God for giving me a “hard row to hoe.” I just keep praying for the grace to resist temptations.

Amen, me 2!

 

[homeloan]

Wow, way to go homeloan…
I’m sure of course, though, if this were presented quite seriously, which it could and should be, you’ll just get called bigot, or homophobic, or prejudiced, or etc.
Here’s my take to these responses;
You’re just a bigot!
Yeah, I’m racist too. Those white people just weren’t meant to live, you know? (I’m white)
You’re just homophobic!
Actually, I’m not. I have nothing to fear from homosexuals. Although when they do gather in large crowds carrying guns, I would be scared, but I think that’s because guns are rather scary.
You’re just prejudiced!
Pshaw, of course I am. How else would I know I’m right?
Really, I’ve found you can’t even talk seriously anymore to people who resort to name calling tactics.

Bryce, didn’t I see you leave early right after communion yesterday…

 

[East_and_West]

Bison, I’m not a homosexual but I’ve known plenty over the years, male and female. Some have been my personal friends, several have been my neighbors.

The majority of those (I’ve known) I’m sure were born that way. In my elementary school many years ago, in the 1st grade, Donald D was as different from the rest of my male classmates as night & day. As we matriculated, his actions revealed he had no attraction to girls and he could spot other boys like him and they would form a bond none of us could understand.

He was born that way. Thus, God made him that way. Who are we to tell God he screwed up?

We can ask why? But my hunch is we’ll get the same answer I’m getting now under my topic “Why Did God Create Such A Violent World?”, the answer being, “…it will all be revealed to you in the sweet bye & bye…”

Just because he was different, just because he may have been predisposed to homosexuality, does not mean that he was born homosexual. Perhaps he was molested when he was younger. Perhaps his sensitive nature caused him to be or feel removed from the “normal” male population and, thus, he developed an attraction to this mystical world of the unknown male. I can tell you as a man who is gay that I was NOT born this way. I was always a bit different myself. I was not into sports, and was definitely a “nice” boy. This caused me to feel separated form other guys and so it was easier to be friends with girls than it was with more aggressive males. This caused me to feel an outsider and to feel left out from the male world. When puberty hit my feeling of outsiderness developed into sexual attraction. But this does not mean I was born this way. It developed. My ex-boyfriend agrees. His gay brother agrees. No one is born gay.
However, even if my some mutation of genes, being born gay does not mean that we should encourage it because it is a psychologically unhealthy way to live one’s life. I highly suggest reading the book “The Battle for Normality” for anyone who believes in the childish non-sense that homosexuality is normal.

 

[BlaineTog]

Wonder what God had against them, or why He singled them out, when He created them knowing they’d be persecuted and shamed in this violent world, both yesterday and today.

No one has a life free of travails. Even Mary who was sinless had a sword pierce her heart. By the same token, no one has exactly the same hardships. Some are quick to anger, others are egotists, others have a predisposition to violence, some are habitual liars, and so on. We each have our crosses to bear. Some happen to have the cross of homosexuality.

He certainly had no tolerance for the population of Sodom as described in Genesis 19.

He had plenty of tolerance. When they were too far gone to be saved, he made an example of them to help save others.

Plus, He showed absolutely no mercy for Lot’s wife. Her great sin: She turned to look at the firey destruction of her hometown. Over the top? You make the call.

All she had to do was do what he said, which was simply to not look back at an evil place being wiped from the earth.

Why did God choose to give us urges that would cause the majority of the humans He created to act upon them, thus proving what God already knew (omniscient) that we’re weak.

God knew it, but we didn’t.

*If He wouldn’t have let those of us who were too weak to resist (which He would already know in advance), then He wouldn’t have to send us to damnation.

I don’t see how you keep bringing this back to “man’s fault” (or fall, or original sin, etc.).

God chose to set it up this way. And we get blamed for following these powerful urges He gave us. What kind of a deal is that?*

We still have the ability to say “no” to those urges. It’s hard, but you can do it. And what kind of virtue would a life be if you were the most twisted soul in the world but by chance never came into occasion to sin?