Homosexuality is illogical?

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I agree; but I disagree with the focus on the “gay” thing. Who am I to condemn them for their “legal” behavior if it only consists of consensual intimacy between adults. To me, that’s their business, and I do believe the “beam - spec” analogy applies.
Homeloan,

That is an interesting distinction to make. There are a lot of things that are “legal” in our secular society. Should Catholics stop condemning abortion? Birth control? Death penalty (for those that do)? Pornography?

I’m sorry, but we should still speak the Truth. As long as we do it in love and direct our comments to the actions, not the individuals, the beam/spec issue is not a problem. I don’t “judge” people, in the sense of “you are going to hell,” but I do judge actions and make my thoughts known if asked and/or brought up in conversation.
 
Yep, no one told us it would be easy. Certainly, from the religious writings & sources we have, God blames us for our own travails. Yet He is the one who put the silly tree with the forbidden fruit in the Garden of Eden, yet he forbade A & E to eat from it.
Sure. He could have put a giant cliff overlooking a magnificent vista and forbade Adam and Eve not to jump over it. The fact of the matter is knowledge of good and evil exists, but it causes greater pain to the finite being who possesses it, but God wanted Adam and Eve to be able to choose for themselves, so he didn’t give it to them but offered them the ability to gain it if they wanted it.
Seriously, doesn’t this sound more like a fairy tale than a historical event?
Why can’t it be both?
Moral of the story. Don’t PO the Big Guy…
No, moral of the story: if someone knows infinitely more than you, do what he says. Would you trust someone with a PhD in Mathematics when you asked him a question about your calculus homework, or would you write whatever you felt like down while thinking what you were doing was in any way close to accurate? Well, God’s like that expert, but moreso, and on everything. It’s utterly absurd not to do what he says; it’s actively choosing to do something stupid.
Yeah, that sounds simple enough sitting here nice & cozy in front of our computers. If you heard a deafening explosion, don’t you think your reflexes might cause you to look in that direction? That story seems over-the-top also, but it too also sounds like a fairy tale…
If I had been told that the explosion was coming and that the light from it would blind me, I could definitely avoid looking. Similarly, God knows all, so if God tells you not to do something, you should damn well not do that thing.
Of course he knew it. He’s omnipotent, omniscient, etc., etc. So why did He let it happen?
Because we have free will, and God respects our free will.
I’m sure there were women and children in the population of Sodom.
First, what makes women somehow special that they can’t let the embers of their soul go out with sin? Second, why would you assume this? Third, this is taking the story too literally. Fourth, Lot and his family were spared because they alone were not too far gone. Fifth, if any innocents were caught in the blast (and the Bible says none were), they would have gone to heaven.
There’s a long, long line of transgressors, Gov Spitzer, Pres Clinton, molesting priests, adulturous evangelists, et al. No doubt, God will damn 'em all because they screwed up. But, God knew in advance they would screw up because He’s omnipotent, omniscient, omni… , omni…, etc.,etc. So, why did He set all of this in motion in the first place? Was He bored? Couldn’t He control his rebellious angels? Is He not all-powerful?
He is all-powerful, but he is also all-loving, and to that end, he wants us to have choices, which we don’t have if he makes us do the right thing all the time.

The problem is that you’re assuming that predestination means we couldn’t do any differently than we’ve done, which isn’t true. Those people you listed could have chosen to do differently.
 
Homeloan,

That is an interesting distinction to make. There are a lot of things that are “legal” in our secular society. Should Catholics stop condemning abortion? Birth control? Death penalty (for those that do)? Pornography?
Abortion is interesting in context to the Church’s prohibition under all circumstances. 550 years ago the Church condemned those who spoke of the earth revolving around the sun, when they believed the universe revolved around earth.

Are you sure in 550 years the Church’s position won’t have changed on this issue? On artificial birth control? On the death penalty? On married priests? On female priests?
I’m sorry, but we should still speak the Truth.
And when the truth changes (flat earth)?
As long as we do it in love and direct our comments to the actions, not the individuals, the beam/spec issue is not a problem.
Today, Barack Obama may disagree, considering comments his pastor made from the pulpit.
I don’t “judge” people, in the sense of “you are going to hell,” but I do judge actions and make my thoughts known if asked and/or brought up in conversation.
But if you confront people with your sense of the wrongness of their actions, don’t be surprised if they respond in a way you might not expect. If so, did you do God’s work by confronting them?
 
Abortion is interesting in context to the Church’s prohibition under all circumstances. 550 years ago the Church condemned those who spoke of the earth revolving around the sun, when they believed the universe revolved around earth.

Are you sure in 550 years the Church’s position won’t have changed on this issue? On artificial birth control? On the death penalty? On married priests? On female priests?

And when the truth changes (flat earth)?
Some things you listed are de fide, so they won’t change: abortion, birth control, female priests.

It is possible that the Church could change the current discipline in the Latin Rite of having celibate priests. She currently does have married priests in the Eastern Rites and the Latin Rite (married ministers who convert and are allowed to be priests).

In regards to the Death Penalty, it is allowed…but the Church discourages it.

If you can find me a *de fide *proclamation by the Church that the earth is flat, please provide it. Otherwise, your argument there is without merit.
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homeloan:
But if you confront people with your sense of the wrongness of their actions, don’t be surprised if they respond in a way you might not expect. If so, did you do God’s work by confronting them?
Are you saying that “admonishing the sinner” is not God’s work? How about “instructing the ignorant?”
 
Abortion is interesting in context to the Church’s prohibition under all circumstances. 550 years ago the Church condemned those who spoke of the earth revolving around the sun, when they believed the universe revolved around earth.

Are you sure in 550 years the Church’s position won’t have changed on this issue? On artificial birth control? On the death penalty? On married priests? On female priests?

And when the truth changes (flat earth)?
I am pretty sure that our distaste for the murder of small childern will not go away. I have never really understood why liberals like it so much. Reminds me of the cult of molech.
 
If you can find me a *de fide *proclamation by the Church that the earth is flat, please provide it. Otherwise, your argument there is without merit.
I can’t, so I’ll acquiesce and acknowledge that part of my argument to be w/o merit, given the de fide proclamation… as it exists… now… :cool:
Are you saying that “admonishing the sinner” is not God’s work? How about “instructing the ignorant?”
If you start going around calling others ignorant, are you sure God will be smiling upon you…?:knight1: :knight2:
 
I can’t, so I’ll acquiesce and acknowledge that part of my argument to be w/o merit, given the de fide proclamation… as it exists… now… :cool:
I’m sorry, I should have been clear. Can you find a *de fide *proclamation that the Earth revolves around the Sun and/or is round? I doubt it. It is not a concern of the Church. The juxtaposition and shape of the planets have no bearing whatsoever on our faith. That is why your argument doesn’t have merit.
If you start going around calling others ignorant, are you sure God will be smiling upon you…?:knight1: :knight2:
What I quoted were two of the Spirtual Works of Mercy. I’m confident based on the teaching of our Church that God wants us to instruct the ignorant and admonish the sinner…the other Spiritual Works of Mercy are counsel the doubtful; comfort the sorrowful;** bear wrongs patiently**;** forgive all injuries**;** and pray for the living and the dead**.

I hope God is smiling down upon me. :o He may not be too happy with you though for avoiding the Spiritual Works of Mercy and trying to tell others they shouldn’t do them. 😉
 
I can’t, so I’ll acquiesce and acknowledge that part of my argument to be w/o merit, given the de fide proclamation… as it exists… now… :cool:

If you start going around calling others ignorant, are you sure God will be smiling upon you…?:knight1: :knight2:
Calling some one ignorant is not a sin. To call some one ignorant is to simply state that that person does not understand the truth of a particular matter. Anyone who believes that homosexuality is not sinful or not illogical is ignorant.
 
I’m sorry, I should have been clear. Can you find a *de fide *proclamation that the Earth revolves around the Sun and/or is round? I doubt it. It is not a concern of the Church. The juxtaposition and shape of the planets have no bearing whatsoever on our faith. That is why your argument doesn’t have merit.
Actually, wasn’t it the ** De fide** issue that specified, “There is no salvation outside the Church”, which has been an impediment to ecumenicalism, especially when you consider one’s own salvation by what’s in one’s heart, ** Rom 2;14-16**, which itself seems vague when considering Rom 1;18-ff?
What I quoted were two of the Spirtual Works of Mercy. I’m confident based on the teaching of our Church that God wants us to instruct the ignorant and admonish the sinner…the other Spiritual Works of Mercy are counsel the doubtful; comfort the sorrowful;** bear wrongs patiently**;** forgive all injuries**;** and pray for the living and the dead**
If you instruct a Pentecostal that because he doesn’t have the fullness of faith, would you consider him ignorant?

When you admonish the 16 year old against seeking to abort the pregnancy caused by her brother’s own molestation, is this merciful?

What counsel would you offer one whose doubt includes an honest attempt to understand why the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Creator allowed sin to penetrate the world He created? Why, knowing full-well that billions of souls, He created, were predestined to an eternity of agony because they were predestined to disobey? Otherwise, is God not omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent?
I hope God is smiling down upon me. :o He may not be too happy with you though for avoiding the Spiritual Works of Mercy and trying to tell others they shouldn’t do them. 😉
And I hope God is smiling down upon me.😉 He may not be too happy with you though for arrogance and self-righteousnss when executing the Spiritual Works of Mercy, smugly condemning those whom you confront.😛 :twocents:
 
If you instruct a Pentecostal that because he doesn’t have the fullness of faith, would you consider him ignorant?
Yep. such a pentacostal is ignorant.
When you admonish the 16 year old against seeking to abort the pregnancy caused by her brother’s own molestation, is this merciful?
Yep. Directly trying to kill small children is wrong, even when that poor child is the result of molestation.
What counsel would you offer one whose doubt includes an honest attempt to understand why the omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient Creator allowed sin to penetrate the world He created? Why, knowing full-well that billions of souls, He created, were predestined to an eternity of agony because they were predestined to disobey? Otherwise, is God not omnipresent, omniscient, omnipotent?
Uh, free will. If God didn’t give it to us we would be robots! And he has not focred us into hell. We choose it. He just forsees it.
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homeloan:
 
Yep. such a pentacostal is ignorant.
Take that (from your friendly Dominican) people of the Pentecostal faith…
Yep. Directly trying to kill small children is wrong, even when that poor child is the result of molestation.
Or, we could send the young girl to Iran or Saudi Arabia and subject her to a mercy killing, or perhaps a stoning. (The author of the creation story indicting Eve as the helpless female, seduced by the serpents charms, will be proud of your manliness!).
Uh, free will. If God didn’t give it to us we would be robots!
Interesting… God creates us (mankind), we (mankind) create robots. We destroy robots by melting them down and making more advanced robots. God destroys our souls and puts us in the fire for eternity, but won’t let us melt… we just sizzle & pop forever and ever Amen… hmmm, what’s wrong with this picture…?
And he has not focred us into hell. We choose it.
I’ll bet if you took a poll for all those billions of souls enduring eternal agony as this very moment if they chose to go to hell, the results would be "Yes - 0%; No - 100%"
":
He just forsees it.
Now that might be the most frightening theology of all! … He knew?
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homeloan:
Welcome to the 21st Century Inquisition!

No wonder there is such an exodus of RC’s to various Fundamentalists denominations as well as the phenomenon of the fastest, growing religious group, the “Great UnChurched”!

IMHO, this type of attitude may be more detrimental to the Church than the scope of the pedophile priests scandal…
 
Take that (from your friendly Dominican) people of the Pentecostal faith…

Or, we could send the young girl to Iran or Saudi Arabia and subject her to a mercy killing, or perhaps a stoning. (The author of the creation story indicting Eve as the helpless female, seduced by the serpents charms, will be proud of your manliness!).

Interesting… God creates us (mankind), we (mankind) create robots. We destroy robots by melting them down and making more advanced robots. God destroys our souls and puts us in the fire for eternity, but won’t let us melt… we just sizzle & pop forever and ever Amen… hmmm, what’s wrong with this picture…?

I’ll bet if you took a poll for all those billions of souls enduring eternal agony as this very moment if they chose to go to hell, the results would be "Yes - 0%; No - 100%"

Now that might be the most frightening theology of all! … He knew?

Welcome to the 21st Century Inquisition!


No wonder there is such an exodus of RC’s to various Fundamentalists denominations as well as the phenomenon of the fastest, growing religious group, the “Great UnChurched”!

IMHO, this type of attitude may be more detrimental to the Church than the scope of the pedophile priests scandal…
Calm down. I think you are getting hysterical.
 
Calm down. I think you are getting hysterical.
No way! When I get stressed, I usually spend 2-hr’s at the Fitness Club jacking-up barbells. You don’t stress me. But then, I’m not Pentecostal,… or female,… or someone choosing to go to hell… 😃
 
Homeloan,

I would love discuss salvation outside the Church, abortion and predestination with you, but why don’t we do that in a more appropriate thread?

I will leave you though with a few thoughts based on your posts:

1). You assume incorrectly that admonishing the sinner and instructing the ignorant is done from a place of “self-righteousness, arrogance and smugness.”. This is not necessarily the case. I always try to do it out of love and with empathy. I am thankful that others have admonished and instructed me. Otherwise, I would still be wallowing in error as a ‘cafeteria’ Catholic.

I don’t walk up to a lesbian couple holding hands and say “REPENT YOU SINNERS!! YOU ARE BOUND FOR HELL!!”. However, I will explain the correct teaching of the Church, if engaged in conversation about it. Is that somehow uncharitable?

2). To do as you seem to advocate - allow sin to go without admonishment and leave the ignorant in their current state is incredibly uncharitable. Why would you want to assist the devil in luring them into eternal damnation?

3). The main cause for the ‘exodus’ from the Church and rise in ‘un-churched’ is relativism. If someone accepts all viewpoints as ‘equally true,’ they have no use for a Church. They have replaced God and the Church with their own ego/will.
 
Homeloan, I would love discuss salvation outside the Church, abortion and predestination with you, but why don’t we do that in a more appropriate thread?
Sounds great; start one…
I will leave you though with a few thoughts based on your posts:

1). You assume incorrectly that admonishing the sinner and instructing the ignorant is done from a place of “self-righteousness, arrogance and smugness.”. This is not necessarily the case. I always try to do it out of love and with empathy. I am thankful that others have admonished and instructed me. Otherwise, I would still be wallowing in error as a ‘cafeteria’ Catholic.
Maybe I was a S.Bapt for too long. I’ve been made to feel I was in sin because I missed Training Union on Sun night or didn’t attend Wed Nite Prayer Meeting… But, I’ve seen the “holier-than-thou” with RC’s too. It’s not becoming…
I don’t walk up to a lesbian couple holding hands and say “REPENT YOU SINNERS!! YOU ARE BOUND FOR HELL!!”. However, I will explain the correct teaching of the Church, if engaged in conversation about it. Is that somehow uncharitable?
Absolutely not. If approached or the conversation is broached, I don’t have a problem with a RC discussing his/her belief, or the Church’s position on homosexuality w/o equivocation. Personally I won’t do this because I have gay friends and I’ve known many gays over the years who IMO are as fine & upstanding morally as just about any RC or S.Bapt I’ve been around.
2). To do as you seem to advocate - allow sin to go without admonishment and leave the ignorant in their current state is incredibly uncharitable. Why would you want to assist the devil in luring them into eternal damnation?
Laws protect us from most of the heinous sins (murder, rape, robbery, theft, physical abuse, libel, perjury, etc.) all of which are condemned by the Church. I just don’t tread too hard in condemning “sins”, mortal & venial", that aren’t illegal (by societal laws) and basically are choices and actions taken by consenting adults. God is a much better judge concerning those items than I would be. But, God would know even before He created those “sinners” what sins they were going to commit. So who am I butting into His business?
3). The main cause for the ‘exodus’ from the Church and rise in ‘un-churched’ is relativism. If someone accepts all viewpoints as ‘equally true,’ they have no use for a Church. They have replaced God and the Church with their own ego/will.
I don’t agree with your definition of relativism, nor do I agree with you that it (relativism) is the reason for the phenomenal rise of the “un-churched”. I don’t think they were being fed (Feed my sheep) properly. Singlemindedness, intransigence and subjective judgement might be the cause. However, millions have left the Church for mega-churches. They might feel they’re being fed with more spiritual nourishment from the Joel Osteen’s & Bennie Hinn’s of the world. Just my opinion…
 
Sounds great; start one…
Why? It’s not that interesting to me, and I didn’t ask the question.
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homeloan:
Maybe I was a S.Bapt for too long. I’ve been made to feel I was in sin because I missed Training Union on Sun night or didn’t attend Wed Nite Prayer Meeting… But, I’ve seen the “holier-than-thou” with RC’s too. It’s not becoming…
Okay…don’t be “holier-than-thou” then. 👍
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homeloan:
Absolutely not. If approached or the conversation is broached, I don’t have a problem with a RC discussing his/her belief, or the Church’s position on homosexuality w/o equivocation. Personally I won’t do this because I have gay friends and I’ve known many gays over the years who IMO are as fine & upstanding morally as just about any RC or S.Bapt I’ve been around.
“Gays” are human beings, capable of the same morality and sin as any human being. I don’t have a problem saying that homosexual acts are a sin anymore than I have telling anyone that masturbation, adultery, birth control, etc. are sins.
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homeloan:
Laws protect us from most of the heinous sins (murder, rape, robbery, theft, physical abuse, libel, perjury, etc.) all of which are condemned by the Church. I just don’t tread too hard in condemning “sins”, mortal & venial", that aren’t illegal (by societal laws) and basically are choices and actions taken by consenting adults. God is a much better judge concerning those items than I would be. But, God would know even before He created those “sinners” what sins they were going to commit. So who am I butting into His business?
You may be part of God’s business. 🤷 To pawn everything off on God’s omniscience and/or predestination is a cop-out.
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homeloan:
I don’t agree with your definition of relativism, nor do I agree with you that it (relativism) is the reason for the phenomenal rise of the “un-churched”. I don’t think they were being fed (Feed my sheep) properly. Singlemindedness, intransigence and subjective judgement might be the cause. However, millions have left the Church for mega-churches. They might feel they’re being fed with more spiritual nourishment from the Joel Osteen’s & Bennie Hinn’s of the world. Just my opinion…
The “nourishment” people generally get from such sources is getting their ego stroked (i.e. feel-good theology). That’s why I said that people replace the Church/God with their own ego. It’s a pride thing…greatest of all sins…we know better than the Church. 🙂

When someone doesn’t like a Church teaching - birth control, divorce/annulment, homosexual acts…you name it…, they go somewhere that accepts that particular sin as okay. They get to feel good. Why go to a Church that makes you feel uncomfortable?

The answer - because it’s Christ’s Church, and He didn’t come to this earth to make us feel comfortable. He came to save us. A lot of people lose sight of that.
 
It’s not that interesting to me, and I didn’t ask the question.
Fair enough, perhaps your suggestion wasn’t that good anyway…
Okay…don’t be “holier-than-thou” then. 👍
Sorry, didn’t know I was… I’ll try to do better…

“Gays” are human beings, capable of the same morality and sin as any human being. I don’t have a problem saying that homosexual acts are a sin anymore than I have telling anyone that masturbation, adultery, birth control, etc. are sins.

Don’t think I’ll find your picture when I look in the encyclopedia under the phrase, “How to win friends & influence people”.

Let’s see, of the sins you reitererated: “Adultery”, you’ll probably catch about 30% of RC’s. “Birth Control”: of the single females between 17-45, I’d say you’d catch about 80%; married females in this age bracket, maybe only 60%; masterbation; males, from 13 - 100, I’d say you’d capture 100%; females, maybe only 80%
You may be part of God’s business. 🤷 To pawn everything off on God’s omniscience and/or predestination is a cop-out.
Or, there is another possibility… could it be you don’t have a sufficient answer…?
The “nourishment” people generally get from such sources is getting their ego stroked (i.e. feel-good theology). That’s why I said that people replace the Church/God with their own ego. It’s a pride thing…greatest of all sins…we know better than the Church. 🙂
Call it what you like, but it’s a fact. There is an exodus of RC’s to other more user-friendly denominations and to the Great UnChurched. I’m sure Caitan, the Vatican Heavy, thought the same as he pursued Martin Luther after his posting of the 95 Theses on the church door in Wittenberg in 1517 (or was it 1519?).
When someone doesn’t like a Church teaching - birth control, divorce/annulment, homosexual acts…you name it…, they go somewhere that accepts that particular sin as okay. They get to feel good. Why go to a Church that makes you feel uncomfortable?
**I hate to burst your bubble, but your question may have more merit than you intended… **
The answer - because it’s Christ’s Church, and He didn’t come to this earth to make us feel comfortable. He came to save us. A lot of people lose sight of that.
**Don’t you think God knew that before He created each and everyone of us? If you don’t then you must not accept God as being omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient.

So, if God knew before-hand, the short-comings of each and everyone of us, then He knew many of us would seek nourishment in more user-friendly confines, wouldn’t He?

But you suggest He will condemn us for that? Might you be a little pretentious?**
 
Fair enough, perhaps your suggestion wasn’t that good anyway…
Homeloan, the point is that you’ve taken this thread entirely off topic by throwing in everything but the kitchen sink in terms of discussion.

If you are so interested in discussing everything EXCEPT what the OP posted, please start another thread.
 
Bison -

I think what it boils down to is that moral relativism rules the day. Someone - Dr. Ray or Scott Hahn - said that there’s a new atheism now. People think ‘there’s a God, and wow - He thinks just like I do’.

The concept of obedience to One greater than ourselves, who has set down firm laws, is not just offensive to many people, but almost shocking!

No one, myself included, wants to be told they are sinning. It’s far easier to tell the other person to stop judging, or to attack the other person or their motives.

As far as your logical approach… well I find it very interesting. However, logic can’t move someone from a position when logic didn’t put them there in the first place.

Take heart in that these same people would say the same things to Jesus.
 
Homeloan, the point is that you’ve taken this thread entirely off topic by throwing in everything but the kitchen sink in terms of discussion. If you are so interested in discussing everything EXCEPT what the OP posted, please start another thread.
You’re right, Sheeniac. Blame it on the fact that I’m new to this Forum. :o :o :o

My previous forum experience consists of Z-Net, where you post for assistance with computer issues & solutions. Plus a couple of local & community forums where only local issues are discussed. However, there was no mercy on off-topic rants even though you could be discussing garbage pick-up and suddenly there’s a raging debate on John, Barack & Hillary!

But religion, God, the Church, etc., I can see it’s alot easier to slide into something way beyond the scope of the original topic and not even realize it until someone calls you out on it. Bison tried a couple of times, but I was too much into my rant to take notice.

I’m sorry. I’ll try to do better. :o :o :o
 
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