Homosexuality Natural?

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SwissGuard25

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People always say Homo-sexuality is natural and that they can’t help it. How is this so? I mean if this was true then pedophilia would also be natural, which we all know it’s not.
Why do people insist it’s natural?
 
Catholics call it original sin, that is the tendency inborn in us, due to the Fall of our first parents, to choose sin and disordered actions. That does not make it right. What is natural is what supports and defines nature as God created the natural world, and what can be known by observing the natural world. It amazes me how those who use Evolution as a benchmark by which they criticize religion and morality, and argue in favor of humans engaging in unnatural actions, do not seem to see the irony in that it is Evolution that gives is the explanation of the natural law on Species Preservation, which argues against homosexual activity or any other disordered activity that threatens survival of the species.
 
People always say Homo-sexuality is natural and that they can’t help it. How is this so? I mean if this was true then pedophilia would also be natural, which we all know it’s not.
Why do people insist it’s natural?
People say they were “born this way.” Well, I have ADD and its genetic. So should the world just accept my deficiencies? Should I get a free pass everytime I forget something, not pay attention, or lack the motivation to do even the urgent things? What I learned from having ADD is that being born gay isn’t an excuse to sin. The same way that it isn’t an excuse for me to just let my emotions run wild or let distraction overcome me. The point of this life is overcoming your deficiencies with God.
 
People always say Homo-sexuality is natural and that they can’t help it. How is this so? I mean if this was true then pedophilia would also be natural, which we all know it’s not.
Why do people insist it’s natural?
I believe that the argument for it being natural comes from a belief that they are born this way.

Now before anyone thinks that I’m advocating for homosexual behavior, I want to reiterate that most homosexuals I’ve spoken with will say that “I’ve always known” or “I always felt this way.” So, since we don’t know the etiology of homosexual orientation they believe it’s natural. But none of knows where and how homosexual orientation occurs.

You bring up a good point. The FBI was the first (I think) that posited that pedophilia was another sexual orientation, as immutable as being hetero. (Which is why they argue for life in prison without parole for a single offense). Some science agrees in studies of the brain. I think that crosses a line. But, if some pedophiles are born that way, and if it’s unchangeable, and if it’s then a sexual orientation (albeit despicable), pedophiles can make the same “natural” argument.
 
People always say Homo-sexuality is natural and that they can’t help it. How is this so? I mean if this was true then pedophilia would also be natural, which we all know it’s not.
Why do people insist it’s natural?
Dear SwissGuard25,

Cordial greetings and a very good day.

Since the genesis of homosexuality in terms of orientation, desire and temptation is one of the unhappy effects of the Fall, it can never be viewed as something natural or normative.

Sacred Scripture is quite emphatic that sin affects every part of human nature and every area of human experience. The effects of sin are physical, psychological and emotional, as well as moral and spiritual. Thus just as natural creation has been spoilt by the Fall and the curse (Gen. 3: 17-19), so also have people’s bodies not remained unaffected.

Catholics should always reckon with the Fall when discussing the primary reason as to why homosexuality exists in the world. Alas, the world is not now as it originally came from the good hands of our Creator, for mankind has rebelled and fallen into a dire state of misery and degradation. We are born into an already imperfect world and we bring an already deeply wounded nature with us, hence the need for the sanctifying grace of holy baptism. Moreover, are personalities are complexes of all manner of sinful desires and no aspect of our humanity escapes unscathed and our sexuality is not immune. We may inherit various tendencies to rebel against the moral law of God and it is only all too possible for us to respond in a sinful way to the various influences that we experience.

Notwithstanding, man’s fallen estate, he does still have a basic ethical intuitive sense that certain behaviours are wrong because they are unnatural. Thus a man perceives intuitively that the natural sex partner of a human is another human and not an animal. By parity of reasoning the same is applicable to unnatural homosexual deviant acts. Thus a man has a corresponding intuition regarding homosexuality that he does about beastality, namely that it is wrong because it is unnatural. Whist it is true that he may supress this truth (cf. Rom. 1: 18), he cannot entirely escape it and his conscience will trouble him regarding his indulgence in homosexual aberrant acts of depravity. Therefore, unless a man has hardened his conscience to such an extent by supressing its voice deep within by persistent sin, it will function as an innate faculty, distinguishing right from wrong - accusing, or else excusing (cf. Rom. 2: 15).

Homosexual genital acts are always contrary to the natural moral law and it is their unnaturalness that renders them both wrong and immoral in the sight of God (Lev.18: 22). Moreover, the normal course of nature is hetrosexual coitus to perpetuate our species, thus any other form of sexual activity is necessarily unnatural and wrong, for such a ‘union’ will never result in producing offspring. It is wrong and disordered conduct by any reasonable standard.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax
 
People always say Homo-sexuality is natural and that they can’t help it. How is this so? I mean if this was true then pedophilia would also be natural, which we all know it’s not.
Why do people insist it’s natural?
The problem of Homosexuality is really a symptom of a deeper flaw in current philosophical thinking about nature in general. Its seems evident that people no-longer define disorder or natural in light of final causality (the teleological end for which a nature or thing is in act). But they often become hypocrites.

In a sense everything is natural. So right in the beginning you are presented with a fallacy. That a thing has evolved has no bearing on whether a specific biological expression is a disorder or not. Like you said, sexual attraction toward children (or S.A.T.C), naturally developed; its an expression of the natural order of things and is a product of the universe in general. You have to conclude this especially if you are a metaphysical naturalist since to speak of mental functionality as being something that essentially exists apart from blind physical/biological causality is meaningless and contradictory given that position.

But most people, take things for granted, and would reject S.A.T.C as being unnatural. They would see it as a disorder of human development and thus they contradict themselves by unwittingly identifying final causality, in so far as they recognize that human beings can develop a trait that does not conform to what a human being is essentially. In other words, gay people identify dysfunction in other “taboo attractions”; but are reluctant to identify disorder in light of their own attractions.

Some people overcome this problem by arguing that biological dysfunctions as well as final causality is subjective. A dysfunction is only one if you want it to be or if you personally perceive it as impeding your desired expression. Many gay people did not want to see their attraction as a disorder and were having relationships which were being undermined by the label of disorder and that is precisely why it was eventually taken off the list of mental illness’s. Thus what we have is conditions being defined as dysfunctions purely in light of pain or suffering or impediments in relation to work and being able to make a living wage or looking after yourself in general. Natural attractions such as S.A.T.C are labeled as disorders only because of the harm it will cause to children. Gone is the principle of final causality when identifying order and disorder. But whether the medical community hold to a consistent position is a different question.

Again gay activists and people in general often contradict their position by dictating to other members of society that homosexuality is objectively moral behavior, and that any subjective denial of ones homosexual nature is necessarily a form of homophobia or self hate. Once again they unwittingly fall in to the trap of identifying homosexuality in terms of final causality. They were born that way and therefore being true to their sexual identity is fulfilled by acting on their attractions.

Catholics would argue that they were born Men and Women, and that therefore sexual identity objectively begins with those traits, and thus the fulfillment of these traits are intrinsically heterosexual in their expression; thus SSA is a disorder in so far as it impedes our ability to fulfill our gender identities. For Catholics and people with commonsense, gender identity is your sexuality. Sexual attraction is an attribute of your gender identity. Attraction begins with the fact that you are a man or a women, and thus when attraction leads us to ends that do not fulfill our gender, what we have is in fact a dysfunction of our objective sexual identities.

The gay community, whether they realize it or not, treat their gender as an arbitrary attribute of their being; a thing that has no relevance to how they should behave sexually. In a very real sense homosexuality is a form of fascism since it dictates that our gender identities have no intrinsic value or relevance in defining our sexual identities, and gay activists (although their intentions are good) are encouraging young children to ignore the intrinsic meaning, importance, and value, of their gender identities when expressing themselves as sexual beings.

Substantially speaking, It’s a clever deception that has gained potential as a movement because people either don’t really think about things beyond the fact of how one is to avoid pain and gain pleasure, or because people no-longer care to identify final causality when it does not stand in their favor.
 
The Church teaches that homosexual tendencies are disordered because they are unnatural.

However a person with them is not disordered as a whole. I’ve noticed some people in various threads taking the opinion that homosexuality is somehow an “illness” to be cured.

Technically the Church takes this opinion on that:

“It is crucially important to understand that saying a person has a particular inclination that
is disordered is not to say that the person as a whole is disordered. Nor does it mean that one has been rejected by God or the Church. Sometimes the Church is misinterpreted or misrepresented as teaching that persons with homosexual inclinations are objectively disordered, as if everything about them were disordered or rendered morally defective by this inclination.”
-Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination

The Church is also neutral on the issue of the origin of homosexuality. I don’t think we should be dabbling on the origins of homosexuality like that article. We should respect the teachings of the Church and take neutrality on the origins of something like that.

I would like to add the American Psychological Association and Psychiatric Association strongly disagree with groups like the Courage Apostolate and Catholic Medical Association who say homosexuality can be cured and is of poor parenting or abuse. They aren’t mainstream opinions.

But who am I to say that. If someone feels so distraught over their homosexual tendencies then that’s their right to seek therapy and become heterosexual. I fully support that option. There’s no guarantee of success and USCCB has stated that

For an appropriate Catholic response that doesn’t include controversial therapy and promotes the only appropriate path for homosexuals (chastity) I would encourage everyone to read “Always Our Children”
 
People always say Homo-sexuality is natural and that they can’t help it. How is this so? I mean if this was true then pedophilia would also be natural, which we all know it’s not.
Why do people insist it’s natural?
I thought the homosexuality-pedophilia contrast was a bit extreme when I first read it. One I thought was an orientation the other a crime. But happily I googled the two and lo and behold I ran across an August 2011 conference in Baltimore sponsored by B4U-ACT, a group of pro-pedophile activists and mental health professionals which will include panelists from Harvard University, the Johns Hopkins University, the University of Louisville, and the University of Illinois.

The “Academic Pedophile Lobby” has been around since 1977 and present ‘scientific’ papers advocating the legalization of child pornography, prostitution and an end to age of consent, defending the sexual orientation of pedophiles. So my apologies to you Swiss Guard25. Your cultural antenna are right on the mark. And here I thought you were over reacting. Shame on me.

Similar lobbying you may all recall, then by homosexual activists, led to the declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder in 1973 in the DSM (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). As a result of the DSM declassification, debate regarding homosexuality and the many documented harms associated with the homosexual lifestyle has been all but shut down in academic psychological circles. It starts with conferences and symposiums I noted above.

They argue that diagnostic criteria for mental disorders should not be based on concepts of vice or sin since such concepts are subject to shifting social attitudes (or worse yet, gasp, religious) and doing so diverts mental-health professionals from their role as healers.

"So we’re on to Step #1 of the Overton Window, developed in the mid-1990s by the late Joseph P. Overton – Move from Unthinkable to Radical. The first step is the easiest – provided the issue can become a fetish or the topic of an academic symposium. Since both the professoriate and the perverts have a fascination with the faux-transgressive (the truly transgressive * tends to terrify them) all you need to do is get the attention of one of these groups. It doesn’t matter which you start with since the politics of the bedroom and the classroom inevitably overlap. This academic symposium in Baltimore comprised of just such a cluster of professoriate and perverts met to shift the acceptance of pedophilia from “unthinkable” to merely “radical.”

It took them 30 or 40 years to move homosexuality from the Unthinkable to the Radical and then on to the Acceptable. The last shift requires the creation and employment of euphemism. Want to kill a child exiting the womb? Call it "dilation and extraction” and infanticide becomes a medical procedure. Want to include sodomitic unions under the banner of “marriage?” Redefine the term “marriage” to mean the state-endorsed copulation of any two(?) people who want to share a bed and a tax form. Be sure to say it is about “love” – in our culture, eros excuses everything.

There will naturally be a few holdouts, of course, but those who reject the shift from Radical to Acceptable can be shamed into approving. All that is required is to deploy a stingingly suitable insult. The word “bigot”, for instance, is more effective than a billy club at beating the young into submission. There are few core beliefs they won’t change to avoid being called a bigot. The disapproval of their Creator is unfortunate; enduring the disfavor of their peers is unimaginable."
How to Destroy a Culture in 5 Easy Steps, Joe Carter

A shout out to my fellow blogger and Catholic, Portait, for his flawlessly intelligent and gracious contribution on the matter. May I urge you all to read this article from our most dearly departed Fr. Richard John Neuhaus that looked back to the statement of the US Bishops, “Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care.” It’s never been said better and the more you copy and paste the parts you like into your forum posts, the better off we all are.

dj*
 
I thought the homosexuality-pedophilia contrast was a bit extreme when I first read it. One I thought was an orientation the other a crime. But happily I googled the two and lo and behold I ran across an August 2011 conference in Baltimore sponsored by B4U-ACT, a group of pro-pedophile activists and mental health professionals which will include panelists from Harvard University, the Johns Hopkins University, the University of Louisville, and the University of Illinois.

The “Academic Pedophile Lobby” has been around since 1977 and present ‘scientific’ papers advocating the legalization of child pornography, prostitution and an end to age of consent, defending the sexual orientation of pedophiles. So my apologies to you Swiss Guard25. Your cultural antenna are right on the mark. And here I thought you were over reacting. Shame on me.

Similar lobbying you may all recall, then by homosexual activists, led to the declassification of homosexuality as a mental disorder in 1973 in the DSM (The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). As a result of the DSM declassification, debate regarding homosexuality and the many documented harms associated with the homosexual lifestyle has been all but shut down in academic psychological circles. It starts with conferences and symposiums I noted above.

They argue that diagnostic criteria for mental disorders should not be based on concepts of vice or sin since such concepts are subject to shifting social attitudes (or worse yet, gasp, religious) and doing so diverts mental-health professionals from their role as healers.

"So we’re on to Step #1 of the Overton Window, developed in the mid-1990s by the late Joseph P. Overton – Move from Unthinkable to Radical. The first step is the easiest – provided the issue can become a fetish or the topic of an academic symposium. Since both the professoriate and the perverts have a fascination with the faux-transgressive (the truly transgressive * tends to terrify them) all you need to do is get the attention of one of these groups. It doesn’t matter which you start with since the politics of the bedroom and the classroom inevitably overlap. This academic symposium in Baltimore comprised of just such a cluster of professoriate and perverts met to shift the acceptance of pedophilia from “unthinkable” to merely “radical.”

It took them 30 or 40 years to move homosexuality from the Unthinkable to the Radical and then on to the Acceptable. The last shift requires the creation and employment of euphemism. Want to kill a child exiting the womb? Call it "dilation and extraction” and infanticide becomes a medical procedure. Want to include sodomitic unions under the banner of “marriage?” Redefine the term “marriage” to mean the state-endorsed copulation of any two(?) people who want to share a bed and a tax form. Be sure to say it is about “love” – in our culture, eros excuses everything.

There will naturally be a few holdouts, of course, but those who reject the shift from Radical to Acceptable can be shamed into approving. All that is required is to deploy a stingingly suitable insult. The word “bigot”, for instance, is more effective than a billy club at beating the young into submission. There are few core beliefs they won’t change to avoid being called a bigot. The disapproval of their Creator is unfortunate; enduring the disfavor of their peers is unimaginable."
How to Destroy a Culture in 5 Easy Steps*, Joe Carter

A shout out to my fellow blogger and Catholic, Portait, for his flawlessly intelligent and gracious contribution on the matter. May I urge you all to read this article from our most dearly departed Fr. Richard John Neuhaus that looked back to the statement of the US Bishops, “Ministry to Persons with a Homosexual Inclination: Guidelines for Pastoral Care.” It’s never been said better and the more you copy and paste the parts you like into your forum posts, the better off we all are.

dj

There is no connection between homosexuals and pedophilia… This is a great page that rebukes that myth.

Matter of fact I think the more we continue to stereotype gays and lesbians who are sexually active as a bunch of child molesters the more we fail in our Evangelization and outreach efforts to them.

Want them to give up sex and be celibate? You won’t do it by calling them words and names like “pedophile,”

Rise above the meaness and hostility of the gay community and show love and respect just like the Catechism tells us too. If you want to call someone out for a sexual sin you won’t do it by labelling them with a socially stigmatizing terms and accusation.

Jesus ministered to these kinds of people so should we.

The Evangelicals have a great saying “WWJD” What would Jesus do? Jesus loved the outcast and downtrodden. So should we.

We like to avoid terms like “gay” and “lesbian” because they label and debase a person on one aspect that’s not representative of that whole person.

Why does that not apply to “pedophile?”
 
There is no connection between homosexuals and pedophilia… Want them to give up sex and be celibate? You won’t do it by calling them words and names like “pedophile,”

We like to avoid terms like “gay” and “lesbian” because they label and debase a person on one aspect that’s not representative of that whole person.

Why does that not apply to “pedophile?”
Dear Mitex:

In addition to the actual data on elevated rates of homosexual child abuse, there is clearly a sub-culture among homosexual men that openly celebrates the idea of sexual relationships between adult men and underage boys, whether pre-pubescent or adolescent. Such relationships are referred to in some research literature using neutral-sounding euphemisms such as “age-discrepant sexual relations (ADSRs)” See Bruce Rind, “Gay and bisexual adolescent boys’ sexual experiences with men: An empirical examination of psychological correlates in a nonclinical sample,” Archives of Sexual Behavior Vol. 30, Issue 4, August 1, 2001; also Jessica L. Stanley, Kim Bartholomew, Doug Oram, “Gay and Bisexual Men’s Age-Discrepant Childhood Sexual Experiences,” The Journal of Sex Research, Vol. 41, Number 4, November, 2004: pp. 381-389: online at: findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_4_41/ai_n9488757/ or “intergenerational intimacy.” Gerald P. Jones, “The Study of Intergenerational Intimacy in North America: Beyond Politics and Pedophilia,” Journal of Homosexuality, Vol. 20, Issue 1 & 2 (February 1990), pp. 275 – 295. This entire journal of the Journal of Homosexuality — at least nineteen articles — was devoted to this topic. Lesbian writer Paula Martinac summarized this phenomenon:

ome gay men still maintain that an adult who has same-sex relations with someone under the legal age of consent is on some level doing the kid a favor by helping to bring him or her “out.” . . . [A]dult-youth sex is viewed as an important aspect of gay culture, with a history dating back to “Greek love” of ancient times. This romanticized vision of adult-youth sexual relations has been a staple of gay literature and has made appearances, too, in gay-themed films…

The article I quote from above is a bit dated but the research has been affirmed since then. The recent activities of the pro-pedophilia academic/pervert lobby that Joe Carter was writing about in First Things are further evidence that this train has left the station.

I am not calling anyone names nor am I equating pedophilia with homosexuality. What I am saying is that part of the disorder of homosexuality expresses itself by male-on-male sex with adolescents and children. What I am saying is Homosexuals are no more likely to molest children than heterosexuals is Myth No. 8. .

As for celibacy, isn’t that what the Catholic Church advises? Do you want addicts to cut down or cease? I try to end my sinful behaviors. How come homosexuals get a pass?

Avoid the terms gay and lesbian while the proponents of such behavior are marching in gay pride parades. Have you visited the planet recently, Mr. Mitex?
dj
 
I was cut off from editing the previous post. I wanted to recommend Stanton Jones’ recent article in First Things that casts an intelligent light on Gay Affirming Science. The page you recommended was extraordinarily suspect – classic gay-affirming (Homosexualist) cant that seems to regard any criticism of the gay life as bigotry.

dj
 
I was cut off from editing the previous post. I wanted to recommend Stanton Jones’ recent article in First Things that casts an intelligent light on Gay Affirming Science. The page you recommended was extraordinarily suspect – classic gay-affirming (Homosexualist) cant that seems to regard any criticism of the gay life as bigotry.

dj
I’m sorry but I just can’t allow myself to hold a controversial belief like that. I respect your opinion and your right to believe that though.

I know homosexuality is a grave sin. But I’m not going to contribute to the farce of demonizing homosexuals as sick perverts. That goes contrary to what I learned from my Catechist that homosexuals need to be shown “respect, compassion, and sensitivty.”

If I want to tell a homosexual I disagree with what they’re doing I’ll do it gently and with love as I was taught.

I respect your belief as a Catholic though to hold that opinion and I defer to your judgement on this. Let’s agree to disagree and call it even 🙂
 
I’m sorry but I just can’t allow myself to hold a controversial belief like that. I respect your opinion and your right to believe that though.

I know homosexuality is a grave sin. But I’m not going to contribute to the farce of demonizing homosexuals as sick perverts. That goes contrary to what I learned from my Catechist that homosexuals need to be shown “respect, compassion, and sensitivty.”

If I want to tell a homosexual I disagree with what they’re doing I’ll do it gently and with love as I was taught.

I respect your belief as a Catholic though to hold that opinion and I defer to your judgement on this. Let’s agree to disagree and call it even 🙂
There are four different God given temperaments for a reason, and neither of them is inherently better than the others 👍
 
I know homosexuality is a grave sin. But I’m not going to contribute to the farce of demonizing homosexuals as sick perverts. That goes contrary to what I learned from my Catechist that homosexuals need to be shown “respect, compassion, and sensitivty.”
Does God send Homo-sexuals to Hell?
 
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