Homosexuality & ordination

[Formosus]

Considering your sources, unfortunately not. From what I’ve read from other sites, apparently, some of the priests are… homophobic… to an embarrassing level. It’s kind of like that “Don’t ask, don’t tell” issue, to an extent, in the military. People just get uncomfortable.

I think it’s very illogical, considering the priest shortage we have.

Ironically Yours, Blade and Blood

A priest shortage shouldn’t be solved by simply letting anyone become priests. Quality is better then quantity. A man who has serious trouble with certain sins (such as fornication or homosexual actions) shouldn’t be ordained because it would stain the priesthood and make it more difficult for that man to remain pure. The priesthood is hard stuff and temptation becomes even worse then before one is ordained. If a man who has serious problems with homosexuality is hearing the confession of another man who has serious problems with homosexuality then don’t you think that both people would be placing themselves in a situation to sin in some sense? These sorts of reasons are why men with deep seated homosexual tendencies shouldn’t be priests.

 

[Blade_and_Blood]

A priest shortage shouldn’t be solved by simply letting anyone become priests. Quality is better then quantity. A man who has serious trouble with certain sins (such as fornication or homosexual actions) shouldn’t be ordained because it would stain the priesthood and make it more difficult for that man to remain pure. The priesthood is hard stuff and temptation becomes even worse then before one is ordained. If a man who has serious problems with homosexuality is hearing the confession of another man who has serious problems with homosexuality then don’t you think that both people would be placing themselves in a situation to sin in some sense? These sorts of reasons are why men with deep seated homosexual tendencies shouldn’t be priests.

Of course not. I’ve already said a homosexual man going into priesthood knows what he’s up for. In terms of temptations, what makes a gay man confessing to a gay priest about homosexuality any different than a straight woman confessing to a straight priest about her sex drive?

 

[Drilling4Truth]

The Church has the obligation to provide priests who are moral and upright in the eyes of God. Homosexuality is simply incompatible with Christian living, and this view is shared by more than just Catholics. As such, shouldn’t we expect the Church to admit only those who adhere to the fullness of Christian living, rather than making exceptions simply to fill space? As I said before, it’s not very difficult for a homosexual man to conceal his sexual orientation in the screening and formation process. But, is this really the type of person we want to be leading our parishes? One who hides the truth from his vocations director, his bishop and his parishioners?

What makes the Church timeless is it’s refusal to accept certain modern ideas and fads. Other denominations have embraced modernity and, as a result, moral relativism. If you’ve spent much time in RCIA classes, you will realize that these denominations are well represented in the throngs of candidates and catechumens.

The Church isn’t trying to belittle homosexuals. In fact, it stresses that gays and lesbians should always be treated with dignity and sensitivity. But, tolerance and permissiveness are too very different things. Just because we advocate for the respect of all people does not mean we condone all people’s behavior.

Regardless, this issue is not open for debate. We can offer opinions of course, but the issue itself is settled. It should be noted that despite these so-called restrictive admissions policies, the number of seminarians and religious are increasing in the United States. God, it would appear, is answering our need for more priests.

 

[Formosus]

If you read, I said a homosexual man who has deep seated tendencies, someone who struggles with it a lot would be placed in a serious temptation by that. I also said men who have serious problems with temptation to fornicate with women shouldn’t be ordained either if you read my entire post.

 

[Paz605]

It is important to emphasis that Homosexuality is damned by God himself through the scriptures. If we are true believers in Gods word through the Old and New Testament, there should be no doubt to believe that Homosexuality as well as other human natures are corruptable unto God’s eyes.

In the Old Testament

Genesis 19:7-8: “I beg you, my brothers, not to do this wicked thing. I have two daughters who have never had intercourse with men. Let me bring them out to you, and you may do to them as you please. But don’t do anything to these men.”

Judges 19:23-24: “No, my brothers; do not be so wicked. Since this man is my guest, do not commit this crime. Rather let me bring out my maiden daughter or his concubine. Ravish them, or do whatever you want with them; but against the man you must not commit this wanton crime.”

Leviticus 18:22: “You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; such a thing is an abomination.”

In the New Testament

1 Corinthians 6:9: “Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor homosexuals nor sodomites … will inherit the kingdom of God.”

1 Timothy 1:10: “… law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly … the unchaste, practicing homosexuals, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching.”

Romans 1:26-27: “Therefore, God handed them over to degrading passions. Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.”

It means that even if after we don’t agree with God we must accept as a dogma of faith or live in a state of sinfulness.

God Bless!

 

[Formosus]

I think it needs to be clarified that God (and by extension the Church) condemns those who practice homosexuality, not the persons who suffer from those temptations or inclinations.

 

[Paz605]

I agree. To those who still don’t understand the importance of rejecting all tendencies and nature of the flesh(that offend God) one must discover the TRUTH! What I find disturbing is how someone who is a homosexual can be called to surve God in a holy orders when he or she has not been purified in the sanctifying grace! Without it your doomed in your Faith! I quote "Then Jesus said to his disciples, “If anyone wants to come with me, he must forget himself, carry his cross, and follow me.” Matthew 16:24

Peace

David

 

[Shlomey]

Once upon a time I believed it would do no harm for priests to be homosexual, as long as they were chaste and obedient to their vows. I no longer feel that way.

The lunacy of acceptance of homosexual acts by some Catholic colleges where homosexual priests were openly embraced is in direct contradiction to all biblical and Church teaching. It is tolerance gone wild, IMHO. There are priestly orders who wear their defiance of Rome like a badge of honor. Basically, the loonies have ruined it for those who might have been able to live their vows…not too different from the rest of society.

Err, I know of heterosexual priests that have illegitimate children and obviously have intercoruse with women: they are everything but uncommon.
Should they be excluded as well, unless they turn asexual???

Obviously not all homosexuals are defiants and are disobedient.

It is an issue of what is more important. Ultimately, it should be God.

 

[Drilling4Truth]

Err, I know of heterosexual priests that have illegitimate children and obviously have intercoruse with women: they are everything but uncommon.
Should they be excluded as well, unless they turn asexual???

Obviously not all homosexuals are defiants and are disobedient.

It is an issue of what is more important. Ultimately, it should be God.

I would caution you on making broad generalizations about the activities of Catholic priests. You have made outrageous claims that “thousands” of priests are engaged in intimate relationships with women religious and that you personally know of priests fathering children. It shows a lack of maturity and an overall prejudice against Catholic priests. This is the kind of stuff we get from anti-Catholic posters looking to start a fight. I would have expected better from a self proclaimed Catholic whose countryman currently sits on the throne of St. Peter.

Priests, seminarians and religious are not asexual. Humans are sexual beings by nature and there is a natural order to that. You claim that priests are barred from marrying someone because of their vows. You forget that these priests are already married to the Church. Your argument is flawed in that you do not hold men and women accountable to the promises they make. Using your logic, a married man would be unfairly barred from marrying another woman because of his outdated vows to his wife.

The Catholic Church expects much from her priests and religious. Those that are unable to keep their vows of celibacy have no place in the Holy Priesthood. And this model is not unreasonable. Every priest I’ve known has kept his vows and lives a priestly life worthy of their office. You’ll understand if I do not take it on your word that German priests are somehow less able to do the same. You enjoy pointing out the exceptions (the legitimacy of which are highly suspect). Perhaps you should become better acquainted with priests who have embraced the gift of celibacy.

Regardless of what you might think, the psychological screening is not meant to only screen out homosexuals. It’s meant to help determine if a person is mentally and spiritually strong enough for the rigorous demands of the celibate life of a priest or religious. The Church needs heroes in the priesthood. Not those who live and act contrary to the Christian lifestyle. If that means there are to be fewer priests, so be it. In case you’ve forgotten, Christ is known for working miracles with few supplies.

 

[Shlomey]

I would caution you on making broad generalizations about the activities of Catholic priests. You have made outrageous claims that “thousands” of priests are engaged in intimate relationships with women religious and that you personally know of priests fathering children. It shows a lack of maturity and an overall prejudice against Catholic priests. This is the kind of stuff we get from anti-Catholic posters looking to start a fight. I would have expected better from a self proclaimed Catholic whose countryman currently sits on the throne of St. Peter.

Priests, seminarians and religious are not asexual. Humans are sexual beings by nature and there is a natural order to that. You claim that priests are barred from marrying someone because of their vows. You forget that these priests are already married to the Church. Your argument is flawed in that you do not hold men and women accountable to the promises they make. Using your logic, a married man would be unfairly barred from marrying another woman because of his outdated vows to his wife.

The Catholic Church expects much from her priests and religious. Those that are unable to keep their vows of celibacy have no place in the Holy Priesthood. And this model is not unreasonable. Every priest I’ve known has kept his vows and lives a priestly life worthy of their office. You’ll understand if I do not take it on your word that German priests are somehow less able to do the same. You enjoy pointing out the exceptions (the legitimacy of which are highly suspect). Perhaps you should become better acquainted with priests who have embraced the gift of celibacy.

Regardless of what you might think, the psychological screening is not meant to only screen out homosexuals. It’s meant to help determine if a person is mentally and spiritually strong enough for the rigorous demands of the celibate life of a priest or religious. The Church needs heroes in the priesthood. Not those who live and act contrary to the Christian lifestyle. If that means there are to be fewer priests, so be it. In case you’ve forgotten, Christ is known for working miracles with few supplies.

I lived in Asia before and - at least in my province - stories about priests having children or relations with women were indeed not uncommon. Furthermore, I remember a case wherein a priest married a woman in the church he was active in wearing his priestly vestments.

My point is not that this is common practice in the Church - which it is hopefully not, rather I made two points:

that an erroneous interpretation of the decree form the Vatican leads to an obviously bigotted position and that it is interesting to not how Catholics would react when heterosexual priests are criticized but how “okay” it seems to be for some when non-heterosexual clerics or candidates are criticized.

While I in no ways claim that everyone is bigotted in such a way, I do hold the claim that such bigotry and two-facedness is indeed not uncommon.
It is also interesting to note how my statements did trigger contra, but not those of maggie which I quoted

And to clarify: I am not in any ways making an argument against celibacy or the vows. I am very much 100% for celibacy in the clergy and the strict keeping of these vows.
I am also for the screening out of those who fail to keep their vows as they are indeed not fit for such a holy profession.

The only thing I was against was the simple fact that some people do interpret the decree in the sense that a non-heterosexual male would have to either turn heterosexual or asexual in order to be permitted into the priesthood or the religious life.

And yes such notions were to be found in German newspapers.

 

[Drilling4Truth]

This is a no-win situation for the Church. It seems that unless all Catholics readily embrace homosexuality in all forms, we’ll be viewed as bigots. That’s fine. The world labels us as all sorts of things, regardless of whether or not it’s true.

Of course German newspapers jump on the anti-Catholic bandwagon. American newspapers do it, too. It’s almost a sport to criticize organized religion, especially the Roman Catholic Church. And, as I said before, the purpose behind the Vatican document is not to single out homosexuals from attending seminary or entering the religious life. Rather, it’s meant to establish norms and rules for psychologically screening all candidates. But, because it mentions homosexuality the modern media assumes it to be only about homosexuals.

The Church has already issued it’s statement on the pastoral care of homosexuals. Call it what you will, Catholics are bound to accept the authority of the Church. Anything less is pure protestantism.

1. Thus, the Church’s teaching today is in organic continuity with the Scriptural perspective and with her own constant Tradition. Though today’s world is in many ways quite new, the Christian community senses the profound and lasting bonds which join us to those generations who have gone before us, “marked with the sign of faith”.

Nevertheless, increasing numbers of people today, even within the Church, are bringing enormous pressure to bear on the Church to accept the homosexual condition as though it were not disordered and to condone homosexual activity. Those within the Church who argue in this fashion often have close ties with those with similar views outside it. These latter groups are guided by a vision opposed to the truth about the human person, which is fully disclosed in the mystery of Christ. They reflect, even if not entirely consciously, a materialistic ideology which denies the transcendent nature of the human person as well as the supernatural vocation of every individual.

The Church’s ministers must ensure that homosexual persons in their care will not be misled by this point of view, so profoundly opposed to the teaching of the Church. But the risk is great and there are many who seek to create confusion regarding the Church’s position, and then to use that confusion to their own advantage.

1. The movement within the Church, which takes the form of pressure groups of various names and sizes, attempts to give the impression that it represents all homosexual persons who are Catholics. As a matter of fact, its membership is by and large restricted to those who either ignore the teaching of the Church or seek somehow to undermine it. It brings together under the aegis of Catholicism homosexual persons who have no intention of abandoning their homosexual behaviour. One tactic used is to protest that any and all criticism of or reservations about homosexual people, their activity and lifestyle, are simply diverse forms of unjust discrimination.

There is an effort in some countries to manipulate the Church by gaining the often well-intentioned support of her pastors with a view to changing civil-statutes and laws. This is done in order to conform to these pressure groups’ concept that homosexuality is at least a completely harmless, if not an entirely good, thing. Even when the practice of homosexuality may seriously threaten the lives and well-being of a large number of people, its advocates remain undeterred and refuse to consider the magnitude of the risks involved.

The Church can never be so callous. It is true that her clear position cannot be revised by pressure from civil legislation or the trend of the moment. But she is really concerned about the many who are not represented by the pro-homosexual movement and about those who may have been tempted to believe its deceitful propaganda. She is also aware that the view that homosexual activity is equivalent to, or as acceptable as, the sexual expression of conjugal love has a direct impact on society’s understanding of the nature and rights of the family and puts them in jeopardy.

vatican.edu/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

 

[Shlomey]

This is a no-win situation for the Church. It seems that unless all Catholics readily embrace homosexuality in all forms, we’ll be viewed as bigots. That’s fine. The world labels us as all sorts of things, regardless of whether or not it’s true.

Where in heaven’s name have you even gotten that notion from???

I think I have made myself clear that I am totally in line with what the Church teaches, that being:

1. The inclination itself is not sinful, but objectively disordered
2. All forms of active entertaining of homosexual lust is a grave sin and a direct violation of God’s Will.

It is not me who is being blurred here.

And I think I also made myself clear as to where I see the bigotry.

Do not even attempt to use strawman arguments against me or to misrepresent my position.
That is not Christian.

 

[Drilling4Truth]

If that’s true, then you’re looking for controversy where none exists. The Vatican has made it clear that active, deep-seated homosexuals are barred from seminary and the religious life. If this is where you see the bigotry, then you have an issue with the Church itself. This is exactly what the Letter to the Bishops on the Pastoral Care of Homosexuals warns against.

 

[Shlomey]

If that’s true, then you’re looking for controversy where none exists. The Vatican has made it clear that active, deep-seated homosexuals are barred from seminary and the religious life. If this is where you see the bigotry, then you have an issue with the Church itself. This is exactly what the Letter to the Bishops on the Pastoral Care of Homosexuals warns against.

Not quite. I was asking for an explanation of the term “deep-seated tendencies” which you have given me none.

Fortunately Formosus did give me one:

If you read, I said a homosexual man who has deep seated tendencies, someone who struggles with it a lot would be placed in a serious temptation by that. I also said men who have serious problems with temptation to fornicate with women shouldn’t be ordained either if you read my entire post.

With that I totally agree.

See, that was all I wanted as I was uncertain how to interpret the decree

 

[CarmeliteGirl25]

This is a no-win situation for the Church. It seems that unless all Catholics readily embrace homosexuality in all forms, we’ll be viewed as bigots. That’s fine. The world labels us as all sorts of things, regardless of whether or not it’s true.

Of course German newspapers jump on the anti-Catholic bandwagon. American newspapers do it, too. It’s almost a sport to criticize organized religion, especially the Roman Catholic Church. And, as I said before, the purpose behind the Vatican document is not to single out homosexuals from attending seminary or entering the religious life. Rather, it’s meant to establish norms and rules for psychologically screening all candidates. But, because it mentions homosexuality the modern media assumes it to be only about homosexuals.

The Church has already issued it’s statement on the pastoral care of homosexuals. Call it what you will, Catholics are bound to accept the authority of the Church. Anything less is pure protestantism.

vatican.edu/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19861001_homosexual-persons_en.html

I have read every post that Shlomey has made, and in NO way has he implied that he considered the Catholics bigots. He, himself, is Catholic, if I understand correctly. Drilling4Truth, I think you are making incorrect assumptions. If memory serves me, we are supposed to preach the truth, but do it in a kind way. I think this was an honest-to-goodness question, and I have to commend Shlomey for putting this out there. May God bless you and keep you in your search for your vocation!