Homosexuality Question

[Lost_Sheep]

This is more of a technicality question than a moral or theological one but,

What is the Church’s position on homosexuality from a nature vs. nurture perspective?

Does the Church see homosexuality as a chosen lifestyle and/or a conditioned behavior, or does the Church acknowledge that some people are simply “born that way”?

 

[Joe_5859]

This is more of a technicality question than a moral or theological one but,

What is the Church’s position on homosexuality from a nature vs. nurture perspective?

Does the Church see homosexuality as a chosen lifestyle and/or a conditioned behavior, or does the Church acknowledge that some people are simply “born that way”?

From what I have seen, the Church has not issued any statement on the origins of homosexual attraction. As you said, that’s not so much a moral or theological question but a scientific one. The Church doesn’t make scientific statements.

Whether it is nature, nurture, or a combination of the two has no bearing on the morality of the acts. It may factor into an individual’s personal culpability in committing those acts, which God will certainly parse out better than any of us.

 

[Spencerian]

This is more of a technicality question than a moral or theological one but,

What is the Church’s position on homosexuality from a nature vs. nurture perspective?

Does the Church see homosexuality as a chosen lifestyle and/or a conditioned behavior, or does the Church acknowledge that some people are simply “born that way”?

As noted by an earlier post, the Church does not take a stand on the origins of same-sex attraction, per the CCC, #2357. As with any person with immoral attractions, it encourages those with same-sex attraction to resist their urges, as they would also encourage single people not to engage in sex before they are married.

The following note, 2758, calls everyone to remember the difference between the sin and sinner in this matter. Having same-sex attractions is no more sinful than having a random sinful thought. It’s the act that creates the issue.

As homosexual Christians are called to a perpetual chastity until when or if they can find attraction in the opposite sex and be married, they have a very hard road to follow. I couldn’t imagine the challenge they face, especially with gay pride groups that push not only immorality but outright challenges to all authority, just because of their sexual orientation. I pray for the few friends who fight this challenge and hope that God gives them something to help that society will not give.

 

[Adam1986]

This is more of a technicality question than a moral or theological one but,

What is the Church’s position on homosexuality from a nature vs. nurture perspective?

Does the Church see homosexuality as a chosen lifestyle and/or a conditioned behavior, or does the Church acknowledge that some people are simply “born that way”?

Well speaking as a gay man myself I can say that I was certainly BORN THIS WAY.

1. I did not choose this. Who would?
2. I knew I was gay before I knew what gay was. I knew I was gay before the age of reason. So it would be impossible for sin, or the devil, or society to condition me or for me to choose it at that age.

I don’t understand why it’s such a hard pill for so many people to swallow that yes God created homosexuality and yes he created me that way. God had to create homosexuality or else it would not exist in this world.

 

[Joe_5859]

Well speaking as a gay man myself I can say that I was certainly BORN THIS WAY.

1. I did not choose this. Who would?
2. I knew I was gay before I knew what gay was. I knew I was gay before the age of reason. So it would be impossible for sin, or the devil, or society to condition me or for me to choose it at that age.

I don’t understand why it’s such a hard pill for so many people to swallow that yes God created homosexuality and yes he created me that way. God had to create homosexuality or else it would not exist in this world.

I’m not trying to start a debate or anything, but simply because you were aware of this inclination for as long as you can remember is not proof-positive that the cause is genetic. Our environment starts influencing us from the moment we are born (possibly even before that). So we cannot discount the impact of “nurture” on that basis alone.

But even if the cause is genetic (which it very well could be for all I know ), I would be cautious about using that as proof that “God created homosexuality”. Some people think that alcoholism is genetic, too. Does that mean that God created alcoholism?

I’m honestly not trying to be flippant. If you disagree with the Church’s teaching on the immorality of homosexual acts, that’s your prerogative (and maybe you don’t disagree – you didn’t say one way or the other). But being “born that way” is not a logical foundation for homosexual acts being morally acceptable. If one wanted to make that argument, they would need to prove the point via another route.

 

[Adam1986]

I’m not trying to start a debate or anything, but simply because you were aware of this inclination for as long as you can remember is not proof-positive that the cause is genetic. Our environment starts influencing us from the moment we are born (possibly even before that).
**Well, yeah it kind of is. A young child under the age of reason who doesn’t understand simple math let alone what sexual orientation is.

Let me ask you this though, do you do you think being straight it genetic or people are born straight?**

So we cannot discount the impact of “nurture” on that basis alone.

But even if the cause is genetic (which it very well could be for all I know ), I would be cautious about using that as proof that “God created homosexuality”. Some people think that alcoholism is genetic, too. Does that mean that God created alcoholism?
**God created alcoholism. If He didn’t create it, how does it exist. If God does create something, then how can it exist. God is the creator of the universe. He din’t just make the world, people, animals, and then say to the Devil here you can create homosexuality, alcoholism, prejudice, etc. Only God can create things. **

I’m honestly not trying to be flippant. If you disagree with the Church’s teaching on the immorality of homosexual acts, that’s your prerogative (and maybe you don’t disagree – you didn’t say one way or the other). But being “born that way” is not a logical foundation for homosexual acts being morally acceptable. If one wanted to make that argument, they would need to prove the point via another route.

I actually do completely disagree with the Church’s teaching but I don’t use being born this way to try and argue my part.

I just get sick and tired of hearing some people say that being gay is a choice or that we’re not born like this. It just isn’t true.

 

[teachccd]

Well speaking as a gay man myself I can say that I was certainly BORN THIS WAY.

1. I did not choose this. Who would?
2. I knew I was gay before I knew what gay was. I knew I was gay before the age of reason. So it would be impossible for sin, or the devil, or society to condition me or for me to choose it at that age.

I don’t understand why it’s such a hard pill for so many people to swallow that yes God created homosexuality and yes he created me that way. God had to create homosexuality or else it would not exist in this world.

People are born with many afflictions. Many are born blind, deaf, paralyzed or with Down’s Syndrome etc… We call these disorders since they are not ordered to what God has intended as wholeness for that individual. These disorders come from our bodies not doing what they were intended to do because of some abnormality and not the will of God. If God willed blindness would Jesus have healed the blind? Could He go against His Father’'s will? Would Jesus have made the deaf hear if it was God’s will that the person should be deaf? No, of course not.

Our God is a God of order and anything that is not ordered happened because of circimstances that God allows in His permissive will. Evil exists in this world but God does not create evil. Evil is a consequesnce to doing what is contrary to the will of God. The Church defines abnormalties such as blindness and the such as physical evils. This is not to be confused with an evil brought out by immoral choices but by the very difinition of evil: a disorder that is not willed by God.

Many afflictions like homosexuality, mental disorders, physical disorders and such are permitted by God for us to unite ourselves with the sufferings of Christ on the cross.(the ultimate evil of humanity) In heaven we will be made whole again but for now all of us must endure our trials and tribulations and turn them towards God. So, did God create the blind man? God created the man who through some abnormality became blind. Did God create the homosexual? God created the person who through some abnormality became sexually disordered. We don’t know why but we do know that these trials exist and that God is there for us.

I did not mean to offend anyone here by sharing what I have learned from Church teachings. I pray that we can all grow to a better understanding of homosexuality and how to best help those who are afflicted with such an orientation… God bless

 

[TimothyH]

Well speaking as a gay man myself I can say that I was certainly BORN THIS WAY.

I don’t understand why it’s such a hard pill for so many people to swallow that yes God created homosexuality and yes he created me that way. God had to create homosexuality or else it would not exist in this world.

It’s a hard pill to swallow because it is not true. I have no reason to question your being born a homosexual but it could not have been because God created you that way. More likely it was due to original sin. Claiming that God created you a homosexual (or porn addict, or alcoholic, or shoplifter, or depressed) ignores the sacramentality of creation, especially man and woman in their masculinity and femininity.

When man and woman freely give themselves to each other in spousal union, it produces a third person - a child. This is what Pope John Paul II called the “Primordial sacrament”. Remember that a sacrament uses things which are visible to reveal invisible, spiritual and divine truths. Just as man and woman freely giving themselves to each other in love produces a child, the perfect interchange of self-sacrificing love which takes place between the Father and the Son in Heaven produces the Holy Spirit. Catholics bear testimony to the fact that the perfect self giving love between the first and second persons of the Trinity produces the third prerson of the Trinity in our most basic statement of our faith which is the creed.

*We believe in the Holy Spirit
The Lord, the Giver of Life
Who proceeds from the Father and the Son.*The fact that the Holy Spirit proceedes from the perfect interchange of self-giving and self-sacrificing love between God the Father and God the Son is basic trinitarian theology. This reality about how the Trinity functions is revealed to man in a visble way by the manner in which God ordered man and woman. How man and woman love each other in spousal union, giving themselves freely and totally to each other, and how that union of love produces a child, reveals to us the invisible, spiritual and divine truth of how the Father and the Son love each other in Heaven and produce the Holy Spirit.

Spousal union reveals to us the most innermost workings of the trinity!

Spousal Union

Man + Woman = Child reveals Father + Son = Holy Spirit. Man and Woman, in a gift of total commitment to each other (marriage), making the perfect offering to each other (spousal union) producing a child reveals to us the perfect love between God the Father and God the Son, totally committed to each other, producing the Holy Spirit.**Naked and Without Shame **

The fact that Adam and Eve were “Naked and without shame” reveals to us that God the Father and God the son are completely known to each other, nothing hidden, completely vulnerable to each otther.**Dominion Over the Earth **

The fact that God blessed Adam and Eve, commissioning them to multiply and fill the earth and have dominion over it reveals to us the Holy Spirit having dominion over all creation and over all life.

*And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the air and over every living thing that moves upon the earth. (Genesis 1:28)***One Flesh **

The fact that man and woman “Become one flesh” reveals to us the substantial union between God the Father and God the Son. They are not just united as Father and Son, but are one flesh, one substance, one God. As Jesus said…

The Father and I are one. (John 10:30)

I could go on but I think you will get the point.

In calling spousal union the “Primordial sacrament”, Pope John Paul II points out that the ordering of man and woman in matrimony and procreation is the number one way in which humans not only know about the innermost workings of the Trinity, but experience it in our own lives. The love between God the Father and God the Son and how this perfect love produces the Holy Spirit is not just an objective truth which we understand, but a subjective reality which we experience in a very real and very powerful way through the sacramentality of our male and female bodies. The self sacrificing love which takes place between God the Father and God the Son in Heaven becomes therefor not only our model for marriage, spousal union and procreation, but the way in which we (are supposed to) experience trinitarian love prior to actually getting into Heaven and taking part in the beatific vision - union with the Trinity- ourselves. Our masculinity and femininity even reflect the Father and Son’s giving and receiving of Love.

So claiming that God created you as a homosexual is simply incorrect; this reality is stated very simply in the 27th verse of the Bible;

*God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them. (Genesis 1:27)*It’s a simple yet sublime statement. Not only are individuals created in God’s image by virtue of the fact that we have immortal, spirutual souls and that we have free will, but man and woman collectively were created in the image of the Trinity.

Adam, I know it is hard to accept but God did not create you with same sex attraction any more than he created me a porn addict, which I was for 33 years.

-Tim-

 

[Newbie2]

I actually do completely disagree with the Church’s teaching but I don’t use being born this way to try and argue my part.

I just get sick and tired of hearing some people say that being gay is a choice or that we’re not born like this. It just isn’t true.

Just as it’s inappropriate to say that all people are gay by choice, it’s inappropriate to say all gay people are born “that way”. The fact is, we simply do not know what all the influences are for those with a SSA.

 

[Hadrianus]

The only official position of the Church is that the cause of a homosexual orientation remains largely unknown. Most educated Catholics, like most educated people generally, recognize that it is not a choice.

Catholic theology teaches that all humans are subject to original sin from the moment of conception. The soul is created immediately by God, but the body is the result of human conception which is why we speak of the action as procreation, not creation in an absolute sense. It is the body through which original sin is transmitted, and all people are subject to it. No one enters the world in an unfallen state, and as St Augustine famously said babies are innocent only due to lack of opportunity.

Whether we speak of a homosexual or a heterosexual orientation, both are subject to sin, and both in somewhat different ways must be brought under the control of reason and grace.

 

[thistle]

Well speaking as a gay man myself I can say that I was certainly BORN THIS WAY.

1. I did not choose this. Who would?
2. I knew I was gay before I knew what gay was. I knew I was gay before the age of reason. So it would be impossible for sin, or the devil, or society to condition me or for me to choose it at that age.

I don’t understand why it’s such a hard pill for so many people to swallow that yes God created homosexuality and yes he created me that way. God had to create homosexuality or else it would not exist in this world.

There is ZERO evidence to support claims that people are born homosexual but plenty of evidence to show that it is the result of one or more of upbringing, environment and choice.
Someone saying they are born gay is not evidence.

 

[Spencerian]

Well speaking as a gay man myself I can say that I was certainly BORN THIS WAY.

1. I did not choose this. Who would?
2. I knew I was gay before I knew what gay was. I knew I was gay before the age of reason. So it would be impossible for sin, or the devil, or society to condition me or for me to choose it at that age.

I don’t understand why it’s such a hard pill for so many people to swallow that yes God created homosexuality and yes he created me that way. God had to create homosexuality or else it would not exist in this world.

Not that I’m qualified to know your feelings and challenges, but it’s pleasing to see “Catholic” in your Religion preference.

If I may ask, however, why call yourself a “gay man” given that doing so places a label on you that you yourself would rather not have?

Hopefully we’ve all answered the OP’s question so I’m not attempting to deride the thread. Adam, blessings to you; ask God to help you think of yourself more as a *Catholic *man–of any label you or I can put to ourselves, this name has more power to help all of us endure any of life’s challenges, if not overcome. God bless.

 

[Adam1986]

People are born with many afflictions. Many are born blind, deaf, paralyzed or with Down’s Syndrome etc… We call these disorders since they are not ordered to what God has intended as wholeness for that individual. These disorders come from our bodies not doing what they were intended to do because of some abnormality and not the will of God.

If God does not will something to happen and cause it to happen, it doesn’t happen.

If God willed blindness would Jesus have healed the blind?

Jesus didn’t heal every blind person. Maybe God wanted Jesus to heal the blind that He did so that everyone could see the miracle and know that Jesus was the son of God.

Could He go against His Father’'s will?

No it was God’s will for that blind person to be cured.

Would Jesus have made the deaf hear if it was God’s will that the person should be deaf? No, of course not.

**Again the argument arises that not every single deaf person was cured. If we’re not supposed to be blind or deaf then why didn’t Jesus cure EVERY blind and deaf person. Surely if it was not God who made them like that and it was not God who wanted them to be like that, then what stopped Jesus from curing EVERYONE. It doesn’t make sense that God didn’t make people blind or deaf or want people to be blind or deaf, but Jesus only healed a few when he could have healed all. And quite frankly if God did not make them like that and Jesus were to heal all of them; don’t you think that would have been a “better” miracle. Healing EVERY blind and deaf person in the world. But He didn’t do that. Why? Because they were born that way because that’s how God wanted them to be. **

Our God is a God of order and anything that is not ordered happened because of circimstances that God allows in His permissive will. Evil exists in this world but God does not create evil.

**If God does not create something, it doesn’t exist. You can’t have a lowly being like Satan creating things. Being somewhat “Godly”. Right? Now we can’t even begin to wonder why God would create something evil. Like murder, but He did. And it’s for a reason that we could never understand on Earth. **

Evil is a consequesnce to doing what is contrary to the will of God. The Church defines abnormalties such as blindness and the such as physical evils. This is not to be confused with an evil brought out by immoral choices but by the very difinition of evil: a disorder that is not willed by God.

If God does not will it, it DOESN’T HAPPEN. God wants everyone who’s blind to be blind for some reason and everyone who’s gay to be gay for some reason.

Many afflictions like homosexuality, mental disorders, physical disorders and such are permitted by God for us to unite ourselves with the sufferings of Christ on the cross.(the ultimate evil of humanity) In heaven we will be made whole again but for now all of us must endure our trials and tribulations and turn them towards God. So, did God create the blind man? God created the man who through some abnormality became blind.

Yes but God causes the abnormality.

Did God create the homosexual? God created the person who through some abnormality became sexually disordered.

Yes and the reason they’re gay is God’s will. He wanted that person to be gay. He made them gay.

We don’t know why but we do know that these trials exist and that God is there for us.

I did not mean to offend anyone here by sharing what I have learned from Church teachings. I pray that we can all grow to a better understanding of homosexuality and how to best help those who are afflicted with such an orientation… God bless

**I don’t understand why you don’t think that God created everyone and everything about them.

God is the supreme being. He makes EVERYTHING happen. If it’s not His will, it doesn’t happen. God made gay people, straight people, transgendered people, blind people, deaf people, everyone. And he made everyone exactly the way HE WANTED THEM TO BE. **

 

[Adam1986]

Just as it’s inappropriate to say that all people are gay by choice, it’s inappropriate to say all gay people are born “that way”. The fact is, we simply do not know what all the influences are for those with a SSA.

It’s not inappropriate to say that I was born a certain way. I think I would know if I chose to be gay or if I woke up one morning and suddenly was gay or if I was always gay.

Let me ask you this, do you think people are born straight or do you think people are influenced straight?

 

[Adam1986]

The only official position of the Church is that the cause of a homosexual orientation remains largely unknown. Most educated Catholics, like most educated people generally, recognize that it is not a choice.

This. Thank you.

 

[Adam1986]

There is ZERO evidence to support claims that people are born homosexual but plenty of evidence to show that it is the result of one or more of upbringing, environment and choice.
Someone saying they are born gay is not evidence.

Really? Well first off I was born gay and secondly yeah it kind of is evidence. There is NO REAL evidence that homosexuality is a choice, etc. Please provide sources for your claim.

How do you explain me being gay before I knew what gay was then?? How can someone be influenced to do something if they don’t know what it is? How can someone “choose” to be a certain way, when they don’t understand what they are “choosing”.

However let’s go through your “argument”.

Upbringing - I was brought up in a loving Catholic home. I wasn’t brought up in a gay household in San Francisco.

Environment - Now let’s see which environment cause me to be gay, the one where my parents took me to Mass from a young age? The one where there was a lot of family prayer? Or maybe seeing my straight parents hold hands, etc. made me decide to become gay.

Choice - Yeah be me, being younger then the age of reason, just chose to be gay? Yeah right? It wasn’t a choice.

How can a young child who doesn’t EVEN KNOW WHAT BEING GAY IS, CHOOSE IT?
Can someone please answer me that, if you so wrongly think that I made this “choice”?

 

[Joe_5859]

God is the supreme being. He makes EVERYTHING happen. If it’s not His will, it doesn’t happen.

I appreciate your sentiment as it seems indicative of a trust in divine providence, but do you really believe this? History is filled with examples of plagues, wars, and other disasters. Do you think that God wills all that to happen?

There is a distinction between what God wills and what God simply allows to happen. I don’t think God wills that people get brutally murdered. I think he allows it to happen because he respects our free will and because he can use those evil acts to bring about a greater good.

If there is no distinction and everything is God’s will, then we do not really have free will and there is no such thing as sin.

 

[Adam1986]

Not that I’m qualified to know your feelings and challenges, but it’s pleasing to see “Catholic” in your Religion preference.
Thanks.

If I may ask, however, why call yourself a “gay man” given that doing so places a label on you that you yourself would rather not have?
Not quite sure what you mean. I am gay. If you have feelings for someone of the same sex, you’re gay. I think this place is the only place that wants to say SSA for gay people. However, I have a BF so this board’s “definition” of “gay” would actually fit with me.

Hopefully we’ve all answered the OP’s question so I’m not attempting to deride the thread. Adam, blessings to you; ask God to help you think of yourself more as a *Catholic *man–of any label you or I can put to ourselves, this name has more power to help all of us endure any of life’s challenges, if not overcome. God bless.

Thank you. I do think of myself as Catholic, as does my BF.

 

[Marie682]

God is the supreme being. He makes EVERYTHING happen. If it’s not His will, it doesn’t happen.

You have this completely wrong. God allows things to happen, because he gave us free will. We can choose to act in accordance with His will or not.

 

[teachccd]

I don’t understand why you don’t think that God created everyone and everything about them.

God is the supreme being. He makes EVERYTHING happen. If it’s not His will, it doesn’t happen. God made gay people, straight people, transgendered people, blind people, deaf people, everyone. And he made everyone exactly the way HE WANTED THEM TO BE.

You have an extremely distorted view on God if you truly believe that He creates evil. This is NOT Catholic theology and so I cannot even comment on your perceived nature of our God. NO, God does not will evil nor does he will that people suffer in any way. You need to seriously review what free will is and how it allows us to make free choices even outside the will of God. God does NOT will murder. That is absolutely ridiculous and goes against the very beginnings of Scripture when Cain killed his brother Abel. Your post is so out there that I don’t even know where to begin. If you believe that God creates evil then maybe that’s where you should start to re-examine the verse in 1 John 4:8 where it states that God is Love. Pure Love in its very essence could never will or create evil.

I will pray that you can see our God on the light of who He is. You can talk with others on this and any Catholic would have to agree that God does not will suffering or evil. God creates everything good and humans messed that up a long, long time ago…teachccd