Personally I think “wills” and “allows” are very close to the same thing. Do I think that God wants wars, plauges, murders, etc to happen. NO WAY!
I think maybe I chose the wrong wording here.
I don’t think God created murder as much as he created the emotions such as anger, jealousy, etc. that can cause someone to want to commit murder. He also created our minds in a way that some people will want to murder and do it.
No, you don’t know that, actually. You only know that you have no conscious way to identify how this very complex and intricate phenomenon known as sexuality (including sexual attraction) ended up configured in you the way it currently is configured.But anyway back on topic about being born gay, yeah I still know I was born this way, lol.
“It could mean that, or it could mean that the ability and love of music, in me, was also nurtured after birth, and even before I remembered such nurturing.”
What you are referring to all goes back to original sin. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God their action allowed sin and death to enter the world. Prior to that sin and death only existed in the realm of the fallen angels. It was Satan himself who was the bringer of sin and death, not God. But God had given Adam and Eve free will to make their own choices and He allowed them to sin. Ever since the first sin, humans have been subject to illness, injury and death. These are not and have never been a part of God’s WILL for mankind. God created us perfect. They are the consequences of the first sin.
No, because neither the love of music nor one’s sexuality are metaphysical. Sexuality is not an essence. What is more core to identity, more “essential,” is gender. But what is really core is our personhood, and especially our core identity as sons and daughters of God The Father.
It is not either/or; it is both. And I turn to those who study sexuality professionally. The ones with any reputation in their field acknowledge that the full scope of sexuality is not inborn at all. We are not “born with a sexuality.” Our sexuality is neutral at birth, not determined. We are pan-sexual, exploratory, and there is some fluidity with regard to our sexuality in the early years especially. We are born with certain temperaments, with certain psychological configurations (many of which are not even analyzable), with certain physiological components which may additionally incline us toward one attraction or the other (or both), and there are so many factors in our environment that affect this mulit-faceted aspect of behavior called sexuality, that any number of them can change the equation, including our responses to those internal and external stimuli – again, many of which are unconscious.
Not “easily.” If all the complex components of my sexuality, including personality factors and physiology/hormones and all my experiences were other than what they were, then “I could have become a lesbian,” yes. (As could other women.)
Yes, God does have a permissive will and you are correct in that God sustains everything and that even includes our evil choices. But getting back to whether or not God creates people with afflictions I would still have to stick with my “NO”. God wills for everyone to be whole in mind, body and spirit. Anything less than that is an abnormalty that resulted from some kind of malfunction in either cell division or whatever our fallen nature brought to this world.I think maybe I chose the wrong wording here.
I shouldn’t have said God created evil as much as God created certain componets that can lead to evil. I don’t really know a good way to explain this except.
However I do believe that God allows murder and evil, so in a way it’s His will that allows evil to be on the Earth. If God didn’t allow it with His will they’d be no evil in this world.
Did I say that OK? Does that make sense?
But anyway back on topic about being born gay, yeah I still know I was born this way, lol.
Why didn’t you bother to read my post carefully.Really? Well first off I was born gay and secondly yeah it kind of is evidence. There is NO REAL evidence that homosexuality is a choice, etc. Please provide sources for your claim.
How do you explain me being gay before I knew what gay was then?? How can someone be influenced to do something if they don’t know what it is? How can someone “choose” to be a certain way, when they don’t understand what they are “choosing”.
However let’s go through your “argument”.
Upbringing - I was brought up in a loving Catholic home. I wasn’t brought up in a gay household in San Francisco.
Environment - Now let’s see which environment cause me to be gay, the one where my parents took me to Mass from a young age? The one where there was a lot of family prayer? Or maybe seeing my straight parents hold hands, etc. made me decide to become gay.
Choice - Yeah be me, being younger then the age of reason, just chose to be gay? Yeah right? It wasn’t a choice.
How can a young child who doesn’t EVEN KNOW WHAT BEING GAY IS, CHOOSE IT?
Can someone please answer me that, if you so wrongly think that I made this “choice”?
If maternal hormones in the womb might be a cause then they could be said to be born gay. The point is no one knows why. Speculating on when or how someone becomes gay is pointless from a Catholic moral standpoint. It is the homosexual behavior that is the problem, not being homosexual.
You would have to provide substantial medical documentation that is conclusive before making a statement like that. This is a very sensitive issue and there is no room for personal speculation…teachccd
Adam,“It could mean that, or it could mean that the ability and love of music, in me, was also nurtured after birth, and even before I remembered such nurturing.”
If you say that then you mean you were born with something different inside you that needed to be nurtured. Something that someone who hates music does not have inside them. Something that you are born with that’s different that what some other people are born with.
Do you believe people you were born straight? Or were you nurtured that way?
Because with your argument, you could have very easily become a lesbian instead of being straight.
Okay, I see what you mean now. Thanks for clearing that up. We’re using the word “will” in different ways. I’m glad to hear you don’t think God wants wars, plagues, and murders to happen.Personally I think “wills” and “allows” are very close to the same thing. Do I think that God wants wars, plauges, murders, etc to happen. NO WAY!
Do I think God allows it to happen, yes. However, in my opinion, when God allows those things to happen it’s for a reason and it’s God’s will. Do you get what I’m saying? Hope I explained that OK?
Adam, here’s my perspective on being ‘born gay.’ Original sin is not some kind of stain on our soul, it’s something we lost-Original grace. When you were born, you lost, for some reason, the grace of having an attraction to women. It was something you lost, that you can only regain through the grace of God. Think about it-whenever we sin, it’s a losing of something. When we lie, we lose truth. When we have premarital sex, we lose purity. etc. We also lose our relationship with God. Do you see what I’m saying? You just lost something, and you need to go to God to try and make sense of it, and to possibly gain that grace back. (It has happened. I can’t remember who, though.)
No, I agree…you know your circumstances better than anyone else here. My point is that it is inappropriate to say either that all people are “born gay” or that all people “choose gay”, since we do knot know. It is entirely possible that some are born gay and that some are not.
Be very careful with this. If you listen (download, perhaps) this week’s Life on the Rock, Fr. Paul Check basically duplicated my earlier response on this thread. Just because someone says he or she “only remembers” feeling SSA, for as long as she or he can remember, does not mean that the person was “born gay.” All it means is that memory has limitations, and memory also does not account for responses to stimuli (actions, which in Catholic thought, also in themselves form our character, our tendencies). Memory also does not account for unconscious and unseen influences in the environment, nor for cultural influences, nor for responses to parenting, acceptance, rejection.
Newbie2 only said it was a possibility. And that doesn’t conflict with what you wrote. One possibility is that the influences that occur prior to birth may have an effect on one’s inclinations. These inclinations might be strengthened or diminished by influences that occur after birth.
Yes, I do agree with that Corki. This is what I was voicing carefulness over:
One is not born with a permanent, determined sexual orientation. Psychologists don’t buy that, and even Fr. Paul Check acknowledged that the Church respects the field of psychology in that respect. One is born, yes, with certan tendencies and inclinations, also modifiers for that, validations of that. (As I said in my earlier post.
) Biology, environment, response to environment, all play a part. The configurations are complex and not determined but fluid.You contracted yourself. First you say SSA is not genetic but then you suggest there might a “gay gene” similar to an “alcoholism gene.”
Right. I was trying to be careful not to suggest that there is “proof” either way.
Actually, I wrote that I “do not believe it to be genetic”, not that there is a certainty that it is genetic. However, I accept the possibility that my belief is subjective, and at some point may be shown to be wrong by an objective finding, say, of a so-called “gay gene”.You contracted yourself. First you say SSA is not genetic but then you suggest there might a “gay gene” similar to an “alcoholism gene.”
Agreed. Nice to see the level-headed being represented!This. Thank you.
