Homosexuality Question

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Adam1986 said:
Well as for incest, the word incest is not in the Bible. So the term incest would vary from region to region. And as for rape, Jesus did speak out against child-rape. "Who ever hurts one of these children would be better off having a mill stone hung around their necks and be drowned, I always took to mean all rape. That even though He was refuring to young children at that time, He meant all rape victims, That was always my interpretation. And as for bestiality, honestly I don’t think that ever really was a “problem” or is now and Jesus maybe figured He didn’t need to address that.

Also don’t you think, if homosexuality is so bad, that Jesus would have been able to for see the possible future and gay marriage, gay adoption, openly gay people all around that He would have made an effort to say SOMETHING about it?

Now don’t get me wrong I don’t mean a sort of predestination, I just mean that Jesus the son of God would have been able to see this as a possibility in the future, not a definite, but a possibility.
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Sorry to say it but you are interpreting and tailoring Scripture to fit your purpose, that is, to justify a pet sin, homosexuality. That is sad.

In my post #54, let me re-state the Conclusion portion in an abbreviated form as it really addresses what you have posited above.

To walk as Jesus walked does not mean that we only say what He explicitly said or do what He actually did, but rather that we follow Him in love for God and others.

Relying primarily upon shock value, arguments based upon a presumed silence of Christ on the matter of homosexuality are deceptive and misleading. Such reasoning subjectively divide the Word of God into authoritative and non-authoritative sections.

There is always a danger of twisting the Scripture (2 Peter 3:16), particularly where we fail to perceive our presuppositions and prejudices. The peril of bending the Word to fit ourselves and justify our behaviors and biases looms for us all.

*2 Peter 3:16-18 (New International Version, ©2011)

16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.*
 
It doesn’t make any difference however whether it’s genetic biological or choice.
The Catholic Church is not going to change it’s doctrine based on genetics -

Saying “it’s a choice” I think makes it easier for people to stand strongly opposing homosexual marriage -
But I don’t foresee the Church really changing anything even if we found a gay gene. That has nothing to do with the teaching …
 
Lost_Sheep said:
This is more of a technicality question than a moral or theological one but,

What is the Church’s position on homosexuality from a nature vs. nurture perspective?

Does the Church see homosexuality as a chosen lifestyle and/or a conditioned behavior, or does the Church acknowledge that some people are simply “born that way”?
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The church may take no official position on the origin of homosexuality, however God has a clear position on it, which you can read yourself. God’s Word will remove all doubt for you.

Romans 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them.
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.
Rom 1:16-17
 
cathoichelp said:
Current research biology of being gay 🙂

enjoy

news.softpedia.com/news/Right-Hand-or-Left-Hand-This-Explains-Why-You-039-re-Straight-or-Gay-72042.shtml
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God’s answer to what “causes” homosexuality is contained in Rom 1:18-32.
Verses 21-22 of God’s explanation are exemplified by such “research” as that contained on softpedia and other media.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, (Rom 1:21-22)

We would all do well to heed Paul’s advice to Timothy in such matters as he recorded it for us in 1 Timothy 6:20"
Timothy, guard what has been entrusted to you, avoiding worldly and empty chatter and the opposing arguments of what is falsely called “knowledge” (literally “science, so called” or “pseudo-science”)
John 12:48
 
cathoichelp said:
It doesn’t make any difference however whether it’s genetic biological or choice.
The Catholic Church is not going to change it’s doctrine based on genetics -

Saying “it’s a choice” I think makes it easier for people to stand strongly opposing homosexual marriage -
But I don’t foresee the Church really changing anything even if we found a gay gene. That has nothing to do with the teaching …
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Do you also see that claiming homosexuality is biologically or genetically dictated, or someone is “born that way”, makes it easy for homosexuals to not want to curb their unnatural desires and go right ahead on acting on them without remorse? Anyway, many have taken that path already, to disregard guilt and the natural law written in their hearts, even before the etiology of the condition is definitively established by science.

Since you concede that the Catholic Church is not going to change its doctrine, what is your purpose in joining this forum? To find a perch for your views against the Church in a Catholic site, mine the confused or strengthen the justification of those in error? Or, to just waste your keystrokes?
,
 
cathoichelp

If I came across as unfriendly in my previous ^^ post, my apologies. To a large extent, it is based on your posts in another thread on homosexual ‘marriage’ which has been removed by the mods, as you must have noticed.

Catholic posters welcome fellowship and honest debates with non-Catholics as appropriate in the sub-forums in this site. However, for some who come on board with apparent agenda to speak against doctrine or teaching with the hope to invite more opposition in the ranks of the faithful, to help the movement to legalize homosexual ‘marriage’ or to spread the normalization of homosexual acts, can expect this kind of reaction.

Faithful Catholics who remain obedient to the Church that Jesus Christ founded are confident and have comfort that they have the truth. Btw, “obedient” does not mean unthinking, unreasonable, or disagreeable.

Peace
,
 
InSearchofGrace said:
Do you also see that claiming homosexuality is biologically or genetically dictated, or someone is “born that way”, makes it easy for homosexuals to not want to curb their unnatural desires and go right ahead on acting on them without remorse? Anyway, many have taken that path already, to disregard guilt and the natural law written in their hearts, even before the etiology of the condition is definitively established by science.

Since you concede that the Catholic Church is not going to change its doctrine, what is your purpose in joining this forum? To find a perch for your views against the Church in a Catholic site, mine the confused or strengthen the justification of those in error? Or, to just waste your keystrokes?
,
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Actually -
I joined the forum because i was seeking out someone to talk to about something pertaining to the Catholic Faith -
I read a ton of posts before joining and then PMed a member and asked some questions … or rather that person more just listened and gave me some feedback- very sweet person by the way 🙂

When I read that other thread it made me sad - not the doctrine itself but they way a lot of other things were said about homosexuals and I posted not to change anyone’s mind but in an attempt to to express how certain views being expressed could be very hurtful to a person - just by the way the it was being said. It was not a huge thread on church teaching and doctrine (clearly you have read it so I assume you know what i mean I can clarify if you like)

People responded I responded it just kind of went from there…

I have no agenda to change anyone’s mind. I honestly am not bothered by anyone having more or less any faith they choose.
When one person’s faith limits the rights of another person- I will gladly “debate” the topic.
But I in no way wish to change your faith or views. Nor do I think the Catholic Church is going to change theirs.

I am very sorry if I came across in a different way. It was never my intention.

I suppose it is possible that the church could examine biological findings and question the morality of sex between two men or woman - but that would change entirely TOO much theology pertaining to the purpose of sex itself.
Which is why I think the church is so politically active in fighting gay marriage. Because if people start to question that … it brings so much more into question.
It is not just immoral relationships - its a huge basis of the Catholic Church … the meaning of marriage the purpose and “right way” to have sex … ect -

So no I don’t think the church doctrine will change. No I am not bothered by people having beliefs that differ from my own - and No I don’t think the churches teachings on morality are enough to warrant federal laws against homosexuals (pertaining to marriage or various other civil rights that are limited as a result of DOMA)

If I am bothering people I have no problem not posting.
I was not trying to cause a problem in the least. I did make a few friends on the site who have been very nice and open and helpful with some things I am dealing with personally. And that was my intention in joining the site. I was just looking for someone outside the situation I am in to give me some feedback

🙂
Hope that helps. I was working all morning sorry it took me so long to respond to you
 
cathoichelp said:
Actually -
I joined the forum because i was seeking out someone to talk to about something pertaining to the Catholic Faith …
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Thank you for your nice reply. If nobody has welcomed you in this forum, let me be first. 🙂 Unfortunately, your entry at CAF seemed somewhat different, as most CAF new members check the Concierge Desk menu first, get acquainted with the rules, have a ‘meet and greet’ with a greeter and other resident posters, etc. New members get warmed up before jumping in a thread, not necessarily one that hits an emotional nerve right off the bat.

I followed that thread closely so I remember a lot of the posts. Basing on the number of posts since your join date a month ago, most were on that thread where you engaged with both guns blazing, so to speak. Anyway, it’s not important now, since whatever the issue or issues were, there is a chance for more civil, less emotional discourse.

Unless I am mis-remembering what you have posted before and please correct me if I am wrong, you and I have a common family situation with a gay brother living with a partner. I am therefore not without sympathy for or understanding of the burden of homosexuals in this life. You decried that the posts of some Catholic posters were purposely demeaning to homosexuals as people. I believe that there is a bit of oversensitivity on your part.

Back to our dear respective brothers: unlike with yours, mine is no longer in a domestic partnership with his partner as they have split up after ten years. I’m not sure in what state you are or if you (or your gay brother and his partner) are, in fact, in the U.S. I bring this up only so that our reference about homosexual unions is on point. The second difference is I, my brother, and the rest in my natal family remain Catholics. It looks like you and your brother are not or no longer Catholics.

Finally, you are on that side of the debate about homosexuality issues and I am on this side. Let me end my post with this note: I believe you love your sweet brother as I love mine. We both wish the best for them, but I am with the poster buffalo that love is not tolerance - Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it. Truth and charity are not mutually exclusive.

Peace and blessings,
,
 
InSearchofGrace said:
Thank you for your nice reply. If nobody has welcomed you in this forum, let me be first. 🙂 Unfortunately, your entry at CAF seemed somewhat different, as most CAF new members check the Concierge Desk menu first, get acquainted with the rules, have a ‘meet and greet’ with a greeter and other resident posters, etc. New members get warmed up before jumping in a thread, not necessarily one that hits an emotional nerve right off the bat.

I followed that thread closely so I remember a lot of the posts. Basing on the number of posts since your join date a month ago, most were on that thread where you engaged with both guns blazing, so to speak. Anyway, it’s not important now, since whatever the issue or issues were, there is a chance for more civil, less emotional discourse.

Unless I am mis-remembering what you have posted before and please correct me if I am wrong, you and I have a common family situation with a gay brother living with a partner. I am therefore not without sympathy for or understanding of the burden of homosexuals in this life. You decried that the posts of some Catholic posters were purposely demeaning to homosexuals as people. I believe that there is a bit of oversensitivity on your part.

Back to our dear respective brothers: unlike with yours, mine is no longer in a domestic partnership with his partner as they have split up after ten years. I’m not sure in what state you are or if you (or your gay brother and his partner) are, in fact, in the U.S. I bring this up only so that our reference about homosexual unions is on point. The second difference is I, my brother, and the rest in my natal family are still Catholics. It looks like you and your brother are not or no longer Catholics.

Finally, you are on that side of the debate about homosexuality issues and I am on this side. Let me end my post with this note: I believe you love your sweet brother as I love mine. We both wish the best for them, but I am with the poster buffalo that love is not tolerance - Christian love bears evil, but it does not tolerate it. Truth and charity are not mutually exclusive.

Peace and blessings,
,
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Yes the reason I joined the forum was not actually to post and I can see how you came to your conclusion based on my sudden posting 🙂
I actually have an entirely separate issue in my personal life that has nothing to do with homosexuality that I was looking for some advice… or even just someone to listen who’s views were not mine but that of the church 🙂

As for my sweet brother - we are in MA so normally he could get married here although that gives no federal rights and since his boyfriend is from Dublin that is a huge issue. In all likelihood if they were to get married they would do so in London … and be free to live together within the European Union … they could not at the present get married anywhere in the states.
Neither of us are Catholic anymore 🙂
My father and step mother still are Catholic though and I have a very young sister

I have many happily married gay friends here in MA - and a few in NH … many of whom are raising children.

The issue is near and dear to me so I apologize if I came off “guns blazing” -
It is more the respect issue than the actual church doctrine that gets me.
I am MOST definitely hyper sensitive… you are correct there 🙂 So even though I try to remain objective I am sure at times I get snippy and sound like I am preaching - rather than speaking-
It’s a challenge - I do my best!

It’s nice to meet you as well. I should post a hello over in the meet and greet section. I need to get my kids to bed and then I will do that!

I am not posting all over the forum but I have read a TON of threads just out of interest - I don’t feel I have much to contribute to most of them however so I just read 🙂
 
It may surprise some posters who are not Catholic, to learn that there are many, many Catholics – on and off CAF – who have no problem loving their own gay relatives, some of whom do live in relationship with others of the same gender. We have no problem showing affection and compassion, but we are equally clear on the morality to which we are called – a morality we are required ourselves to follow, and a morality we are also required to accurately represent to others, without compromise due to sympathy. Not to do so is at the least a sin of omission. That is, when presented with a situation in which we are asked to state the Church’s position affirmatively on sexuality, and/or our level of agreement with that, we choose to lie or obfuscate due to some social embarrassment or misplaced sense of ‘obligation’ due to friendship or blood relationship.

It’s not necessary to withhold emotional support from a relative or friend. Nor is it necessary to preach to active homosexuals (relatives or not) who are not requesting direction or opinion from a practicing Catholic. The Church doesn’t ask us to do that. We are required, however, not to advance support for institutionalizing gay “marriage,” regardless of how we feel about our relatives and friends, and how many of them declare themselves to be actively homosexual. The two commands (Truth and Love) are not at odds, but in fact are related to each other.

I have very warm relationships with everyone I associate with who happens to identify as homosexual. Every bit as warm as all my relationships with heterosexuals. And the subject of the formers’ sexuality (my view of it, church view of it) never comes up. I don’t bring it up, they don’t bring it up. On the unlikely chance one of them would ask me, I would acknowledge honestly the Church’s position which I am required as a Catholic to support, and which I do support, while also reaffirming my affection for them as individuals.
 
Elizabeth502 said:
It may surprise some posters who are not Catholic, to learn that there are many, many Catholics – on and off CAF – who have no problem loving their own gay relatives, some of whom do live in relationship with others of the same gender. We have no problem showing affection and compassion, but we are equally clear on the morality to which we are called – a morality we are required ourselves to follow, and a morality we are also required to accurately represent to others, without compromise due to sympathy. Not to do so is at the least a sin of omission. That is, when presented with a situation in which we are asked to state the Church’s position affirmatively on sexuality, and/or our level of agreement with that, we choose to lie or obfuscate due to some social embarrassment or misplaced sense of ‘obligation’ due to friendship or blood relationship.

It’s not necessary to withhold emotional support from a relative or friend. Nor is it necessary to preach to active homosexuals (relatives or not) who are not requesting direction or opinion from a practicing Catholic. The Church doesn’t ask us to do that. We are required, however, not to advance support for institutionalizing gay “marriage,” regardless of how we feel about our relatives and friends, and how many of them declare themselves to be actively homosexual. The two commands (Truth and Love) are not at odds, but in fact are related to each other.

I have very warm relationships with everyone I associate with who happens to identify as homosexual. Every bit as warm as all my relationships with heterosexuals. And the subject of the formers’ sexuality (my view of it, church view of it) never comes up. I don’t bring it up, they don’t bring it up. On the unlikely chance one of them would ask me, I would acknowledge honestly the Church’s position which I am required as a Catholic to support, and which I do support, while also reaffirming my affection for them as individuals.
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This doesn’t surprise me in the least 🙂 I know many Catholics who are very kind and follow church doctrine -

The saddening part for me is the constant flow of articles and bias links of how horribly over sexual homosexuals are and dangerous to children ect -
It is simply untrue.
I spent many many years as a social worker and if i used the horrors committed against children AND woman as a standard I would say heterosexuals should never have children - and should never be near women (this is not directed at you I have not seen you do this) but posters like Buffalo have an endless stream of links that are completely hurtful and paint homosexuals as something other than human beings.
I am not saying there are NEVER crimes committed by homosexuals but crimes are not committed because of sexual orientation -

Anyway - that was what i was responding to. And I think i am beating a dead horse here 🙂
 
Adam1986 said:
I just get sick and tired of hearing some people say that being gay is a choice or that we’re not born like this. It just isn’t true. 😦
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Adam, you are so right. I have been heterosexual for as long as I was aware of what sexuality was about, and my male gay friends had the same experience.

It may be different for homosexual women; one of my lesbian friends went through a series of male relationships before she realized in her thirties that she had never felt fulfilled in a relationship with a man.
 
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