Homosexuality

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Phooooie

You ask why is physical expression necessary for a homosexual relationship.

The answer is that it is not. The Dean of the Cathedral here is gay, has a gay partner, but has said that they do not have physical relationships.

Similarly there are marriages where the couple for one reason or another do not have sexual relationships.

But then in most opposite sex partnerships the people want to express their love physically and the same goes for most same-sex couples.

Here are some questions in return.

Suppose a gay couple live together but do not have sex - is that morally acceptable?
Suppose they hold hands from time to time?
Suppose they kiss sometimes? Are we still OK morally?
Might it be acceptable to cuddle?
Could they sleep together and cuddle up but not have sex?

Are we going to be left solely in the case of genital touching then? But don’t you see how odd this is? Such touching would give them pleasure, express their love and do nobody any harm. It seems crazy to declare it wrong because it is not using the genitals for what they were intended for. [Feet are not designed for football] Ah you say - they are also frustrating the reproductive function of sex [Playing football does not frustrate walking] True but being gay they are never going to have sex for reproduction so it is, for most, a frustrating absentance OR expressing their love physically.

LADYBRI

Thanks - I know you did not mean to offend. Your last paragraph is correct.
Thanks for talking to me - it was interesting.
 
Chaste friendships are acceptable. If the living together would not be a temptation to sexual expression, then of course this would be fine. If it would be, then it is a problem.

I will reiterate. It seems our difference of opinion is on whether or not the positive aspects of the relationship can or should be separated from the sexual aspects of the relationship.

Another direct question. I feel it is very important to have an answer.
Why does it bother you that either the Church or I believe that the sexual aspects of the relationship are wrong?
 
Because what you and your church has said and done has been very harmful and distressing to people in loving same-sex partnerships. This bigotry is as bad and as harmful and as illogical as racism.

Also it is rank hypocrisy to proclaim a God who is all love but deny it in gay people* because of nonsense about ‘functions’. The church is like the Pharisees who blindly followed rules without love.

Laurie
  • I have continually made this point but nobody wants to deal with it head on.
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
Because what you and your church has said and done has been very harmful and distressing to people in loving same-sex partnerships. This bigotry is as bad and as harmful and as illogical as racism.
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How is the Truth harmful? Any harm and distress based on Truth is self-inflicted. And I claim that you blaming the Church is bigoted.
Also it is rank hypocrisy to proclaim a God who is all love but deny it in gay people* because of nonsense about ‘functions’. The church is like the Pharisees who blindly followed rules without love.

Laurie
  • I have continually made this point but nobody wants to deal with it head on.
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God is Love.

How has the Church denied God to gays?

This looks like another bigoted accusation. The Church doesn’t blindly follow anything. She follows, Jesus with eyes wide open.
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
Because what you and your church has said and done has been very harmful and distressing to people in loving same-sex partnerships. This bigotry is as bad and as harmful and as illogical as racism.

Also it is rank hypocrisy to proclaim a God who is all love but deny it in gay people* because of nonsense about ‘functions’. The church is like the Pharisees who blindly followed rules without love.

Laurie
  • I have continually made this point but nobody wants to deal with it head on.
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I believe true love is protecting people from sin which is what the church is doing by presenting God’s truth to them. I think you are referring to those who approach it in a judgemental and unloving way. I’m so thankful I haven’t met those people yet, but have seen fanatical people on the news holding up terrible signs, etc as well as the occasional harshness from a few people on the forum.

Is that what you are referring to, some of the harsh, judgemental words of people here on the forum? I more often than not run into people who are loving and caring about people caught in homosexuality and wish to help them in their struggle (if they wish to follow their conscience and what the Catholic church teaches about being chaste).

There is a Catholic group for SSA strugglers who want to stay chaste called Courage. Its where SSA strugglers come together to help support one another to stay chaste sharing their stories and struggles. Through this group and the Lord, some find enough strength to abstain and have their SSA feelings diminish through Christ’s love exemplified through one another.
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
Because what you and your church has said and done has been very harmful and distressing to people in loving same-sex partnerships. This bigotry is as bad and as harmful and as illogical as racism.

Also it is rank hypocrisy to proclaim a God who is all love but deny it in gay people* because of nonsense about ‘functions’. The church is like the Pharisees who blindly followed rules without love.

Laurie
  • I have continually made this point but nobody wants to deal with it head on.
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I would like to deal with this point head on. Love is not the same as physical pleasure. Nowhere will you find the Catholic Church proclaiming that love can be equated to physical pleasure. Love is, rather, sacrificial. It is both a gift and a sacrifice for a married couple to raise children- we believe that this is why we experience the pleasure in sexual relations. We still believe that relations between the infertile are licit, as we can hope for a miracle.

Nowhere will you find the Catholic Church proclaiming that gay people do not love one another. It is only this one small thing- the sexual expression of love between individuals of the same sex- out of the whole fullness of the relationship between them- that the Church deems to be wrong- and the Church defines anything that prevents man from realizing his full potential as sinful. This is only one thing among an extremely complex, strict discipline of many recommendations that the Church has, most of which seem very foreign, illogical and harsh to our mainstream modern society.

The Church has no power to impede free will. The Church is not preventing anyone from doing anything.in the privacy of their bedroom. But according to the Church’s definition of sin, anything that takes man further from God cannot be condoned, and the Church is helping those who are Catholics to understand what is necessary to become closer to God. I hope that our desire to follow our religion does not hurt you or your daughter.

If I have said or done anything that has hurt you or anyone else then you have my apologies. I hope you will accept my sincerity when I say that it pains me to think of how you and your daughter are feeling.
 
One more thing that I think I should say to be clear. The Catholic definition of “sin” is very different than the definition of right and wrong that is most accepted in our contemporary culture.

Here is a complete discussion, although it’s long and complicated.
newadvent.org/cathen/14004b.htm#I

If this is too much to read, then my best short definition is that to Catholics, a closer analogy would be sinful=not good/not helpful/not elevating, rather than sinful=directly and obviously aggressive or harmful.
This is really not an adequate or complete explanation, however.
A better explanation is that we believe we are called to live our lives with Christ as an example, and Christ lived for sacrificial love rather than for seeking pleasure. Anything that impedes that goal is considered sinful, although many sins may be committed with the intent to pursue a good, real or imagined.
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
Friends, however you play it:

1] Paul did not condemn slavery.
2] Yet slavery is very wrong.
So 3] Paul’s opinions on morality are not necessarily correct.

Nothing you say goes against that simple piece of reasoning. I
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But this is not a valid logical argument as the conclusion does not follow necessarily from the premises. If the first premise was “Paul lifted up slavery as a moral good”, then the conclusion would follow. Notice the distinction?

I don’t see how we can put forth the notion that “Paul’s opinions on morality are not necessarily correct” unless we abandon the Catholic doctrine of the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture.
 
ladybri77 said:
I know because of the Holy Spirit living within me giving me His truth and God’s Word, that’s how I know. Not to mention the teachings of the Holy Catholic church.

The reason we are so outspoken about homosexuality is that people are trying to normalize it when it shouldn’t be, and they are essentially trying to legalize perversion by mocking the long-standing institution of marriage given to us by God which was ordained to be between one man and one woman.
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Ahhh,the Holy Spirt that lives inside of you told you so?👍

David Koresh told his followers that,that same Holy Spirit you speak of told him he was the messiah:eek:

“Perversion”?:rolleyes:…I use that word when I speak of pedophile religious leaders from ALL religions;)
 
puzzleannie said:
I repeat, the burden of proof is upon those who insist homosexuality is part of the natural created order of mammalian biology to prove a positive benefit to the individual, the social group and the species. Since there is none, this will prove an uphill battle but go to it by all means.
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There is no need to prove a positive benefit to the social group and the species, not everything we do is for the good of the species. It is certainly subjectively good for the individual. He gives in to his urges sexually the same way heteros do. I don’t think this does more harm than say drinking and smoking … Besides, we see too many old gays to accept that they die young. I say there is NO logical sense for homosexuals not to engage in homosexual activity. There are only theological reasons. If we want to curb this sin, we must first evangelise. I do not see any other way.
 
Laurie_Gibson said:
Because what you and your church has said and done has been very harmful and distressing to people in loving same-sex partnerships. This bigotry is as bad and as harmful and as illogical as racism.

Also it is rank hypocrisy to proclaim a God who is all love but deny it in gay people* because of nonsense about ‘functions’. The church is like the Pharisees who blindly followed rules without love.

Laurie
  • I have continually made this point but nobody wants to deal with it head on.
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OK I’ll bite.

What has the church done? The Catechism states that while we know that the act itself is an abomination, we are to treat all gays with love and charity and to never discriminate against them (I’m paraphrasing here as you can tell). This does not mean that we stop calling a sin a sin and it doesn’t mean we have to condone the act.

In fact, it’s precisely because we know that it is an objective sin, that we have to tell them so. This is where the problem comes in as sometimes we come across as bigoted in the process … then again … even if we try to do so in the most charitable way … we’ll still get stuck with that tab.
 
Bishop93 said:
Ahhh,the Holy Spirt that lives inside of you told you so?👍

David Koresh told his followers that,that same Holy Spirit you speak of told him he was the messiah:eek:

“Perversion”?:rolleyes:…I use that word when I speak of pedophile religious leaders from ALL religions;)
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You didn’t read my whole post. I said holy Scripture AND the Catholic church AND the Holy Spirit are where I get my truth. We are given the Holy Spirit by God Who is against ALL sin, not just homosexuality but ALL sin.
 
ladybri77 said:
You didn’t read my whole post. I said holy Scripture AND the Catholic church AND the Holy Spirit are where I get my truth. We are given the Holy Spirit by God Who is against ALL sin, not just homosexuality but ALL sin.
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Gottcha:thumbsup:

But see,I read the Holy Scripture and know a thing or two about the Holy Spirit as well but I’m on the other side of the arguement:shrug:
 
Bishop93 said:
Gottcha:thumbsup:

But see,I read the Holy Scripture and know a thing or two about the Holy Spirit as well but I’m on the other side of the arguement:shrug:
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I’m interested. Tell me why you feel the way you do.
 
I love this answer! There are so many different types of love out there and all will, in their own way, lead us to Truth.

Peace,

phoooiee
 
Bishop93 said:
Gottcha:thumbsup:

But see,I read the Holy Scripture and know a thing or two about the Holy Spirit as well but I’m on the other side of the arguement:shrug:
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It’s one thing to “know” the Holy Spirit, it’s another to have Him indwelling in you.

Scripture says, “I will give them the Holy Spirit who will give them the Truth”. Paraphrased.
 
phoooiee said:
Don’t you think so?
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So many different types of love…let’s see there’s homosexual, erotic, agape, friendship. No, I wouldn’t say they all lead us to the truth…but of these, I’d say agape and friendship love do!
 
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