Homosexuality

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“Only God knows.Our only duty is to follow God to the best of our ability”…Yep

We have to live and let live…Love and let love.

Thats all^^^

Who other people love and marry is none of our business.

Their final destination is between them and God…Not us.

Only God knows what’s in their heart.
We can help them find their way by being loving and pointing them the way to God if we care enough about their salvation. And of course praying for them. That’s what we as Catholics, are called to do. We are called to Evangelize if we truly care about people.
 
We can help them find their way by being loving and pointing them the way to God if we care enough about their salvation. And of course praying for them. That’s what we as Catholics, are called to do. We are called to Evangelize if we truly care about people.
No.

Phil 2:12 - Work out Your Own Salvation with Fear and Trembling.

It is on them…Not you.
 
Well…I’m heading out of town and away from Internet access…have enjoyed the discussion very much!

Peace and respect to all,

phoooiee
 
David, David, David,

I rely do not know how to get you to see what is before your very face.

If P then Q
Q is false
So P is false

is elementary logic - look up Modus Tollens before you reply.

If he was the murderer he would have blood on his hands
He does not have blood on his hands
He is not the murderer

If 5 was divisible by 2 it would be even
It is not divisible by 2
5 is not even

If Fred was a bachelor he would not be married
He is married
He is not a bachelor

If I was a millionaire I could afford to holiday in the US
I cannot afford to holiday in the US
I am not a millionaire

If it was a fish it could breath in the water
It cannot breathe in water
It is not a fish

In each example ASSUME THE PREMISES ARE TRUE and clearly the conclusion follows. If you still do not see this then I suggest you look up Modus Tollens on Google or in one of those logic books of yours
OK, I looked it up. It was not covered in the basic study I undertook.
The logic may be valid, but is unsound because the original premise two is not known to be true. That is, “This example of gay sex is right” is not true.
 
To Phooie
I have enjoyed our dicussion very much too - thanks for your time.

To Ladybri
Of course if gay sex is wrong then gay people must be chaste, join help groups etc but I have argued in detail in my earlier posts that it is not wrong and nobody as yet has answered my reasoning.
[Except to say it must be mistaken because the Church teaches differently]

To DavidV
So now you need to establish that the premise you quote is false. I have given lots of reasons why it is true so that needs a careful answer too. Over to you.

Best wishes to all,

Laurie
 
No.

Phil 2:12 - Work out Your Own Salvation with Fear and Trembling.

It is on them…Not you.
Yes, we must work out our own salvation, but we are called to evangelize and tell others about God. I heard of a girl once whose family didn’t go to church. For years she didn’t know about God, but eventually someone told her about him, invited her to church, and she came to know and love God. She said she wished someone had told her about Him a long time ago.
 
Laurie, I wondered if you saw my previous post below. Any thoughts?

We believe in God because we have the gift of Faith. It is wonderful to have the gift of faith as phooie described earlier. We also have the gift of Eternal Life. Knowing that this life is only temporary, it is a very wonderful thought indeed! You can have the gift of Faith also if you just ask Him who created you for it.

Also, I would recommend if you would like further explanation for the subject at hand, that you would ask God Himself to clarify it for you. Ask Him if it is truly okay to be gay. What would His thoughts be? He would have the best answers. Just a suggestion.
 
To Phooie
I have enjoyed our dicussion very much too - thanks for your time.

To Ladybri
Of course if gay sex is wrong then gay people must be chaste, join help groups etc but I have argued in detail in my earlier posts that it is not wrong and nobody as yet has answered my reasoning.
[Except to say it must be mistaken because the Church teaches differently]

To DavidV
So now you need to establish that the premise you quote is false. I have given lots of reasons why it is true so that needs a careful answer too. Over to you.

Best wishes to all,

Laurie
Since it was your claim, it is up to you to demonstrate that it is true. So far, I have only seen an appeal to emotion.

Edit: I also still think that the argument is invalid, as it is not a modus tollens, when in fact it is a fallicy, affirming the consequent. The reason is that the Q is not the unique consequence of P.
 
Hi DavidV,
You say;

*Since it was your claim, it is up to you to demonstrate that it is true. So far, I have only seen an appeal to emotion.

Edit: I also still think that the argument is invalid, as it is not a modus tollens, when in fact it is a fallicy, affirming the consequent. The reason is that the Q is not the unique consequence of P. *

1] Please look as post 143 for detailed reasoning. If you would like to deal with it fine. But please look at what I say and answer that.

2] I usually charge for teaching logic!

The argument went:

If Natural Law ethics [P] is true then gay sex is always wrong [Q]
But gays sex is sometimes right [Not Q]
Conclusion Natural Law ethics is false [Not P]

This is an obvious example of Modus Tollens which goes
If P then Q
Not Q
Therefore Not P

Affirming the consequent, which is a fallacy goes
If P then Q
Q is true
Therefore P is true.

My argument does NOT take this form

The fact the other deductions [consequences] can be made from P is quite irrelevant and certainly could not change the form of the argument!

However this is not really relevant. We have agreed that my argument is VALID and are now discussing if the second premise is true. Let’s stick with that - you have forgotten the logic you once knew - but, because I have taught it recently I, luckily, can remember it.

Laurie
 
Laurie, I wondered if you saw my previous post below. Any thoughts?

We believe in God because we have the gift of Faith. It is wonderful to have the gift of faith as phooie described earlier. We also have the gift of Eternal Life. Knowing that this life is only temporary, it is a very wonderful thought indeed! You can have the gift of Faith also if you just ask Him who created you for it.

Also, I would recommend if you would like further explanation for the subject at hand, that you would ask God Himself to clarify it for you. Ask Him if it is truly okay to be gay. What would His thoughts be? He would have the best answers. Just a suggestion.
You are very kind but I would rather stick with the gay question.

As to faith, if God wants to give me it - then fine! Until he does I will say that I see no virtue in believing something for which there is little evidence and, if I decided to have ‘faith’ I do not know how I would choose between the various varieties of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism…God is welcome too to enlighten me re gay sex. But I’m not sure how I would discover his thoughts on the matter.

Happy Easter
 
Because, logically, it is against the Natural Law. It’s not how we were made to operate. Our reproductive parts were made to do just that, reproduce. Homosexuality, by its nature, doesn’t reproduce.

Most folks aren’t aware of what the Natural Law is. Let me offer a brief explanation. You probably have a car, right? Your car has an owner’s manual put together by the cars manufacturer. In that manual, it probably says you need to use unleaded gasoline in the tank to make it operate correctly. What if, in all sincerity, you came up with the idea that it would be better to put honey into your gas tank. After all, it’s “your car” right and you should be able to do with it “whatever you like,” right? What will be the result of you not following your manufacturers manual? You’ll be a pedestrian. Your car won’t work and you’ll have nothing but trouble with it.

The Natural Law is our Manufacturer’s (God’s) manual for human beings. Since He designed and manufactured us, He knows how we should best operate. If we deviate from that, we will have problems in our lives. Not maybe. But for sure, sooner or later.

If you would like to hear a good lecture on the Natural Law, I would invite you to listen to Dr. Charles E. Rice (professor emeritus at Notre Dame School of Law) at the following link:

alabamacatholicresources.com/Downloads/Natural_Law-1.mp3 🙂
This is a terrible example. As a homosexual, I didn’t choose to be gay. In this example someone is choosing to be stupid and put honey in their car. I can see the point you’re getting at but this still goes to show the large misunderstanding of most Catholics and homosexuality by placing some type of blame on the homosexual. God is the one in control here and intimately knows that He created me this way:

"My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. " Psalm 139:15&16

My purpose in being born was to praise God forever, not reproduce with a woman. That should be the most important item in this owner’s manual, not my sexual orientation.

" ‘Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?’ 37 Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.’ " (Matt 22:36-40)
 
You are very kind but I would rather stick with the gay question.

As to faith, if God wants to give me it - then fine! Until he does I will say that I see no virtue in believing something for which there is little evidence and, if I decided to have ‘faith’ I do not know how I would choose between the various varieties of Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism…God is welcome too to enlighten me re gay sex. But I’m not sure how I would discover his thoughts on the matter.

Happy Easter
Why not ask Him?

Happy Easter to you too!
 
This is a terrible example. As a homosexual, I didn’t choose to be gay. In this example someone is choosing to be stupid and put honey in their car. I can see the point you’re getting at but this still goes to show the large misunderstanding of most Catholics and homosexuality.
Even though you feel gay, you don’t have to act on it. There is a deeper reason why we have those feelings. It takes some work on finding the emotiona/psychological reasons and then addressing them. No one chooses to be gay, but that doesn’t mean we have to act out on those urges if it is against what we believe to be true…that God and the Catholic church teach the acting out on it sinful and staying chaste. There are support groups for people like you who have come out of the lifestyle and through in depth counseling and prayer. It can be done especially if you wouldn’t “choose” it for yourself. I’m here to say there is freedom from it. Ask God to help you.
 
This is a terrible example. As a homosexual, I didn’t choose to be gay. In this example someone is choosing to be stupid and put honey in their car. I can see the point you’re getting at but this still goes to show the large misunderstanding of most Catholics and homosexuality.

My purpose in being born was to praise God forever, not reproduce with a woman. That should be the most important item in this owner’s manual, not my sexual orientation.

" ‘Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?’ 37 Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.’ " (Matt 22:36-40)
What greater way to praise Him than with your body and your sexuality as a chaste Christian!
 
Hi DavidV,
You say;

*Since it was your claim, it is up to you to demonstrate that it is true. So far, I have only seen an appeal to emotion.

Edit: I also still think that the argument is invalid, as it is not a modus tollens, when in fact it is a fallicy, affirming the consequent. The reason is that the Q is not the unique consequence of P. *

1] Please look as post 143 for detailed reasoning. If you would like to deal with it fine. But please look at what I say and answer that.

2] I usually charge for teaching logic!

The argument went:

If Natural Law ethics [P] is true then gay sex is always wrong [Q]
But gays sex is sometimes right [Not Q]
Conclusion Natural Law ethics is false [Not P]

This is an obvious example of Modus Tollens which goes
If P then Q
Not Q
Therefore Not P

Affirming the consequent, which is a fallacy goes
If P then Q
Q is true
Therefore P is true.

My argument does NOT take this form

The fact the other deductions [consequences] can be made from P is quite irrelevant and certainly could not change the form of the argument!

However this is not really relevant. We have agreed that my argument is VALID and are now discussing if the second premise is true. Let’s stick with that - you have forgotten the logic you once knew - but, because I have taught it recently I, luckily, can remember it.

Laurie
Argument: If gay sex is always wrong, how can it sometimes be right?
 
Even though you feel gay, you don’t have to act on it. There is a deeper reason why we have those feelings. It takes some work on finding the emotiona/psychological reasons and then addressing them. No one chooses to be gay, but that doesn’t mean we have to act out on those urges if it is against what we believe to be true…that God and the Catholic church teach the acting out on it sinful and staying chaste. There are support groups for people like you who have come out of the lifestyle and through in depth counseling and prayer. It can be done especially if you wouldn’t “choose” it for yourself. I’m here to say there is freedom from it. Ask God to help you.
God has helped me fully realize who I am by coming out and accepting that I’m gay. This is not an issue between me and a support group, it’s between myself and God and honestly I really think God could care less.

I see what you were trying to say with your example, but staying on that issue, you’re still implying I have to choose something that isn’t me. That’s not right. Even my mom said “I know you’ll make the right decision” when I came out to her which I just didn’t get. I don’t understand why straight people think there is a decision involved. There’s not. :rolleyes:
 
God has helped me fully realize who I am by coming out and accepting that I’m gay. This is not an issue between me and a support group, it’s between myself and God and honestly I really think God could care less.

I see what you were trying to say with your example, but staying on that issue, you’re still implying I have to choose something that isn’t me. That’s not right. Even my mom said “I know you’ll make the right decision” when I came out to her which I just didn’t get. I don’t understand why straight people think there is a decision involved. There’s not. :rolleyes:
We have control over our bodies. If we’re attracted to someone’s wife, we don’t have to act on it. Thus, we don’t have to act on our sexual desires if we don’t desire to. The key is “if we don’t desire to”. There are plenty of Catholics who have same sex feelings that want to obey God and the church who choose to be chaste. We are called by God to be chaste until marriage. I’m sure you’ve read in scripture where fornication is sin, the definition of which is sex before marriage.
 
What greater way to praise Him than with your body and your sexuality as a chaste Christian!
There are other, more meaningful things, I could do to praise God in this life…

"Mary took a liter of costly perfumed oil made from genuine aromatic nard and anointed the feet of Jesus and dried them with her hair; the house was filled with the fragrance of the oil.
Then Judas the Iscariot, one (of) his disciples, and the one who would betray him, said,
Why was this oil not sold for three hundred days’ wages and given to the poor?!..So Jesus said, “Leave her alone. Let her keep this for the day of my burial.” (John 12:3-5+7)
 
We have control over our bodies. If we’re attracted to someone’s wife, we don’t have to act on it. Thus, we don’t have to act on our sexual desires if we don’t desire to. The key is “if we don’t desire to”. There are plenty of Catholics who have same sex feelings that want to obey God and the church who choose to be chaste. We are called by God to be chaste until marriage. I’m sure you’ve read in scripture where fornication is sin, the definition of which is sex before marriage.
Exactly, but the impression I get from many Catholics is that just because I’m gay means I just sleep around and can’t control my decisions and that I wouldn’t care about whoever I find to love. I’m sure many Catholics indeed have chosen to live chastely, but this is not for me at this point. The Christian journey is long though, and I’m still really young, so I can’t say for certain that this will always be the case, in fact I see a future for myself where I am chaste (as I am now), but I don’t want that now and I know for certain that God has the sense to see that I see that this is a time where I’m still figuring everything out. That’s not sin. That’s life. Doing “gay things” is not always wrong. That’s not how the world works.
 
Exactly, but the impression I get from many Catholics is that just because I’m gay means I just sleep around and can’t control my decisions and that I wouldn’t care about whoever I find to love. I’m sure many Catholics indeed have chosen to live chastely, but this is not for me at this point. The Christian journey is long though, and I’m still really young, so I can’t say for certain that this will always be the case, in fact I see a future for myself where I am chaste (as I am now), but I don’t want that now and I know for certain that God has the sense to see that I see that this is a time where I’m still figuring everything out. That’s not sin. That’s life.
I’m not here to judge you, just to point you in the right direction by telling you the truth. There was a time I was involved in a relationship with the same sex when I knew it was wrong. I felt guilty all the time. I was trying to get my needs met my own way instead of turning to God to meet them, which didn’t work. The relationship was terribly painful and it went nowhere. I learned why God said to stay away from this sin (or any sin) since it hurt me and the other person emotionally and spiritually.

Blessings on your journey.

Peace
 
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